Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[ActionDan]

I'm going to assume CDB didn't reconsider since he urged Vezok to vote me.

Going to start with ActionDan. I'm having a read over his iso (probably won't do this with everyone but think he should be concise enough for my eyes not to bleed).

One thing I find a bit off is how he talks

a bit

here and here about Marquis's read on TTH but it's nothing particularly serious and not really presented as something that's pressing or requires a response from Marquis to break anything open. But when he comes back three days later he implies it's more important than it looked before. That thing just doesn't feel like the sort of thing which would suffice me as an entry/exit point from the thread as town. I'm struggling to imagine town Dan caring enough to latch onto that three days later.

Espeonage case is lame, basically

For someone who keeps promising to read me, and has really recent experience with me as scum, it looks really weird that this is the only post in which he actually deals with me in any meaningful way, and even then it's very fence-sitty

Well, I got to the end of it. My eyes are drooping a bit so might reconsider this in the morning but basically there's not very much in it that grabs me. Part of the reason why I got pretty scared of ActionDan while he was alive in Retrospective Rehash was that, when he actually bothered to engage with the game, he had a lot of conviction behind him that I don't see here. I see pretty lame reasons on Espeonage (I know, I know) and

an almost bizarrely casual relationship to the major wagon that sprung up upon him - like, we got a bit more activity from him around that time, but there's not really any of the passion that I would associate with townDan facing his own lynch.

UNVOTE: Espeonage
VOTE: ActionDan

In process of trying to catch up but pretty much solidly in the UT boat of HOLY CRAP I JUST WANT A LYNCH, A FLIP, SOMETHING DEFINITE WITH WHICH TO WORK so pretty happy to go along with:

UNVOTE: Espeonage
VOTE: ActionDan

...especially as a) this reminds me a lot of his scum persona in the Reckoning invitational (exaggerated emotion)

Mmkkkay; heightened emotion = scum, passion = town: Wag of my finger to you. Besides the fact that a major difference between the games regarding my lynch was that here it was the first lynch of the day and there it was a lynch that many including myself thought would determine the fate of the game (making the stakes on RR much greater), I have just as much conviction in my reads here as anywhere else. AND IF I DIDN'T, that wouldn't even be scummy. But again, I do.

About TTH/Marquis. That was the last thing in my mind and basically the only thing I did up to that point - I'm not going to just forget about it after 3 days of absence. Nor is it correct to say that it's more important than it was before, or that I implied that. It's a continuation of my thought process and only inquiries at the time - a single question - which I struggle to see how it could be interpreted anymore than that.

That's great you think my Espeonage case is lame. Maybe explain why you think that. I was a curious so I looked at your read on him. IT'S BASED ON TWO NULL POSTS. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? And behavioral tells, not explained, unless they're connected to the 2 posts made on the first minor day. For someone who constantly says they need to refresh this read, you haven't done it, even now, and you have the gall to chastise me for not getting to reading you. It's true I meant to, but I could only get in a read on Espeonage before a major wagon broke out that I had to deal with. Afterwards you weren't actually a priority should you have been just because you were scum in RR. And for the record, I thought you were town until the last day, and I only challenged you because I noticed you were hard-defending Kise and skewing your VCA to make him look better. Also you weren't scared of me there IIRC.

---

That was horrid. Normally I'd consider reading over Titus but that prospect is daunting, and I don't think I'd see anything worse than this considering what I have read of her.

VOTE: CDB

Claim may be good enough to warrant a lynch on Aronis, maybe, but no one else.

[ChannelDelibird]

About to start work. What I have the time/energy to say right now:

Of course I didn't say out loud in the RRR thread that you were scaring me, why would I? I felt that way because I was scum and you were right. Is this really a thing you're saying?

I

agree

that the TTH/Marquis thing wasn't really a thing, that's why I immediately contradicted it

I didn't have the energy to go into the Espeonage thing, which is my biggest regret of starting that post last night with the intention of a thorough case(ish) on my suspects, but at any rate hypocrisy is not a scumtell and I don't have to have made a good case to think that yours was lame

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, to be fair, if you're town and I were in your shoes right now, I'd be a bit offended by that sorry excuse for a case too. It's also pretty easy for scum you to pick apart as well, because it's the shitty ramblings of a half-asleep, conf-biased madman who simply feels obliged to get

something

out before going to bed so as not to have spent his entire day speaking only about who he doesn't want to lynch, but I'm not under any illusions that that was a slam dunk.

Of the suspects available, I looked into you first because CES said he'd vote for you in a pinch (his reasons weren't much more detailed than 'you made a bunch of posts around the time of your wagon and none of them had anything particularly town about them). If work is quiet this afternoon (dunno), I'll try to look into others too but I've probably committed at this point to you as my alternative wagon of choice, given time available. Still don't hate it, but conscious of the fact that I haven't got a great case.

[vezokpiraka]

TOWNBLOC:
TellTaleHeart (TTH is town, period)
Bulbazak
Titus
Shadoweh

TOWN:
Oversoul/Tammy
GuyInFreezer (GIF off of Titus-trust)

KINDA TOWN:
Gammagooey
Vezokpiraka

REST:
ChannelDelibird
ActionDan
Untrod Tripod
Espeonage
Formerfish/Marquis
Aronis

SCUM:
Cheetory (pure gut)
DeasVail
singersigner/Empire/Zar

There.
/sleep.

How the fuck are your reads completly inverted from mine? Seriously. How does this happen.

[ChannelDelibird]

If it gets to the point where I'm going to have to be hammered (and it still frakking shouldn't, btw, there are enough people and enough time to save me), please give me a chance to out the sign of my target. I think it's worth doing if I'm not going to survive.

[Shadoweh]

CES had just read this post of yours too and finds it strange that you ruled him out of saying it for badically no reason. If it

had

been one of my team who said it (again, it wasn't, and I'm clearly in the habit of saying when reads have come from my team-mates), then by your own logic CES is the most likely one to have said it. He doesn't understand why you've decided that he couldn't have.

CES doesn't do small talk. :V

Shit. That's a really good claim. This is extremely problematic for me though since the only other people with votes are Dan and Titus. Dan, do you not think that's a claim not worth lynching? I.. really have no idea what to do, i don't think another wagon will pick up and i don't want to be on this one anymore. :/ It's way too early to have to make these decisions. I think he might be at L-1 even. I'll be awake in about 7 hours to check if people got off, so until then:

##Unvote
##Vote: Aronis

[ActionDan]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it. Also not really thinking about other viable options like Aronis.

The claim is reasonable, but it's not alquin. It's a tracker claim.

[ActionDan]

I felt that way because I was scum and you were right. Is this really a thing you're saying?

Yes, because it wasn't in the post-mortem afaik

[ChannelDelibird]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it.

The more important part was that you =/= me

[ChannelDelibird]

Also because I was half-asleep I initially read UT's vote as one on Dan rather than me, so I thought vezok's vote was more premature than it might have been

[singersigner]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it. Also not really thinking about other viable options like Aronis.

The claim is reasonable, but it's not alquin. It's a tracker claim.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you activity and contributions to games make for a default perfectly acceptable case, so calling it a shitty case is short-sighted and ignorant.

I guess I'd do Aronis but this last comment is just really shady.

[ChannelDelibird]

I felt that way because I was scum and you were right. Is this really a thing you're saying?

Yes, because it wasn't in the post-mortem afaik

Well however many weeks later in post-game I didn't feel the need to address that specifically, but you can probably tell from our mafia PT that I was generally crapping myself from the day when we lynched Shinobi onwards. But honestly that's just a weird thing for you to assume that it didn't happen. You must know scum get scared when people are onto them

[ActionDan]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it.

The more important part was that you =/= me

There are 17 players who aren't you

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it. Also not really thinking about other viable options like Aronis.

The claim is reasonable, but it's not alquin. It's a tracker claim.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your activity and contributions to games make for a default perfectly acceptable case, so calling it a shitty case is short-sighted and ignorant.

I guess I'd do Aronis but this last comment is just really shady.

You mean the activity that isn't a problem anymore and the contributions/posts you at one point didn't want to lynch me for?


That case is BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, shitty. True facts.

I felt that way because I was scum and you were right. Is this really a thing you're saying?

Yes, because it wasn't in the post-mortem afaik

Well however many weeks later in post-game I didn't feel the need to address that specifically, but you can probably tell from our mafia PT that I was generally crapping myself from the day when we lynched Shinobi onwards. But honestly that's just a weird thing for you to assume that it didn't happen. You must know scum get scared when people are onto them

*Shurg* I saw words I didn't believe were true. It's largely irrelevant to your case anyway and it's not a big deal to me anyway.

[ChannelDelibird]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it.

The more important part was that you =/= me

There are 17 players who aren't you

Oh come on, don't pretend that post isn't in the context of me vocally hating the other non-me wagons. You're allowed to be angry and you're allowed to think I'm scum but don't be wilfully blind

[ActionDan]

Maybe I'd spare him for Aronis. maybe. I still don't really like the conviction he had telling Vezok to vote me when he had a shitty case and knows it.

The more important part was that you =/= me

There are 17 players who aren't you

Oh come on, don't pretend that post isn't in the context of me vocally hating the other non-me wagons. You're allowed to be angry and you're allowed to think I'm scum but don't be wilfully blind

I knew you'd say this. My rejoinder is that you didn't have faith in your own case against me, so what's the difference!
Also I had NO VOTES until you voted me, so if you want to get picky I guess what, 13-14 other players?

[ChannelDelibird]

I posted what I think of every player very very recently and explained why you were in a small group of people for whom I would prefer to vote. The difference is thinking other people were town. And I've also said that I had very much intended to look at the others for whom I had expressed satisfaction with voting last night, but I couldn't stay awake long enough, and I've said why I started with you as opposed to the others.

[ActionDan]

I don't want to distract you too much here. So I'd appreciate it if you read other people, formed fresh opinions. If you're town and get lynched, I'm not going to be happy about it.

I could be doing the same I guess, but I'm resistant to changing my vote if you're going to continue clinging on to yours for your stated reasons

pedit: Yeah I saw. As you go from town --> scum reads the amount you say about each decreases until you come to the 4 people you were scumreading and didn't have much to say at all. It's not exactly satisfactory for me, which is why I could reasonably expect you to vote for lots of people. My iso is not shorter than others at this point either btw.

[ActionDan]

actually scratch that. More like the certainty of your read decreases.

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't want to distract you too much here. So I'd appreciate it if you read other people, formed fresh opinions. If you're town and get lynched, I'm not going to be happy about it.

I would like to do that but I'm at work right now and I don't really have time to do more than react to new posts, I can't go digging around in isos and take proper chunks to time to reevaluate. I wish I could, but it is what it is.

I could be doing the same I guess, but I'm resistant to changing my vote if you're going to continue clinging on to yours for your stated reasons

I'd switch to Aronis if he had more votes than you. I'd switch to a lot of people who aren't my top-tier townreads if they had more votes than you.

As you go from town --> scum reads the amount you say about each decreases until you come to the 4 people you were scumreading and didn't have much to say at all.

That's correct. My townreads are much stronger than my scumreads. That happens sometimes. Given the deadline situation, I could certainly be expected to vote for lots of people, but if time weren't a thing I don't see why you'd expect me to vote for people outside of the big boxes where I sorted people into how willing I am to lynch them.

[ActionDan]

but if time weren't a thing I don't see why you'd expect me to vote for people outside of the big boxes where I sorted people into how willing I am to lynch them.

Because of what you came up with wrt me. Something you admit was bad.

[ChannelDelibird]

Yes, but you know that came after the part where I was already pretty unsure of you in comparison to others, right? It wasn't like that was the foundation of what I said about you in my reads list. That was something that happened after I already knew that you were in the pool of people I'd be happiest lynching. I didn't randomly pick out one of my townreads then decide to iso them to find things that support their being scum. I don't even know what you're trying to say about me any more

[ActionDan]

People I guess I would lynch, if perhaps reluctantly:

Formerfish
Mastin2
Untrod Tripod

People whom I think might flip scum but on whom my reads are conflicted:

Bulbazak
Shadoweh

People whom I could pretty happily lynch Today:

ActionDan
Aronis
Espeonage
TellTaleHeart

What I'm saying is this: you don't have much to say about anyone in these categories really, except shadoweh. So on first sight to me they are mostly indistinguishable to you. Well maybe not completely but enough you could vote them maybe. There are 9 names here. If time weren't a thing, you could produce cases alike to the one on me. That one sucked. And I was a person you'd happily lynch. so the distinction between them is almost provably negligible now.

I suppose what I really mean is that I could expect you to vote for people in these categories and not your strong town ones. I didn't mean to imply otherwise

[ChannelDelibird]

If time weren't a thing I like to think I could have done much better on someone than what I farted out on you

[Espeonage]

I will not be around at deadline, I will hammer before bed.

[DeasVail]

Again with the backwards reads.

Let me know if you ever want to discuss why our reads differ.