Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[Aristophanes]

im thinking if wicked mafia makes sense

I don't see it, but if you wrangle a case together, please let it be known!

[OkaPoka]

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

[Wickedestjr]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

[OkaPoka]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

[vikingfan]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it. And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

Like I said before, unless random actually posts and says he's doing it, I'm not on board with this plan.

[OkaPoka]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

link

[Formerfish]

Vote Oka

Rando is going to shoot. We are not going to try to handcuff him because that idea is fucking stupid.

Vote Oka

Rando is going to shoot. We are not going to try to handcuff him because that idea is fucking stupid.

Do I trust him? No. Do I think that we can successfully handcuff a vig to shoot? No. We let him shoot who he wants because he probably dies tonight. There is too much that can go wrong when you try to direct something like that. Scum gets more information than they should have and will make their night kill based off that info. If we give 2-3 choices they could try to pick who he would target to frame him when one kill comes out, there could be a role blocker on the scum team that would simply block Rando and frame him, or scum could just no kill to have only one flip tomorrow, then same boat for Rando. And with regards to picking those targets, scum would have a voice in the discussion and could just let Rando make the kill because they know it is going to be on town most likely (depending on the targets). So this has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with not wanting scum to get anymore information out of us.

Kop replaced Kelbris. That sentence right there is enough to make you pause.

Rando is going to shoot. We are not going to try to handcuff him because that idea is fucking stupid.

And then what do you propose we do with him? Do you want to take him to endgame? Scum aren't going to kill him, even as a confirmed townie.

We unleash him like a pissed off God of Fury and let him kill, if he can. Keep in mind the whole idea of him being handcuffed is predicated upon him being town. If you don't think that is true it will become more evident soon. Vig is a beautiful safe claim because even if it gets cced you can fight to have the actual one lynched, saving the kill from being made, and then you can explain your own lack of kill away the next day. We didn't get a cc here, so there is a 50/50 chance he is lying, if he isn't though we could use the kill we'd just have to cross our fingers on it hitting correctly.

I can see why you would have missed it, I fucked the quote tag somehow and my response to viking was included in his quote. The bold is me explaining why leashing is a bad idea.

[vikingfan]

So...tomorrow night middle of the night (my time) is the deadline. And we're missing Saul and need a replacement and there's no guarantee we'll hear from random prior to the deadline so we basically need a lynch of 6 people with only 9 active players. Which hurts us because trying to analyze a vote count off today's lynch will be very difficult because nearly all the active players need to be on it so we all have to come to one accord.

Mod, is there any way we can get an extension to the deadline with Saul's absence? or a replacement of random so we have 11 active players for today's lynch?

[Randomnamechange]

For some reason I thought I got lynched...
Will catch up.

[Randomnamechange]

ALRIGHT, i'm inclined to agree with wicked that kop and oka are town. If we look at criteria people have for suspecting people today, vikingfan fits all of them (on monkey wagon, medium conyent lecels, etc.) my vote is sticking.

[Formerfish]

Vote Count 2.6

OkaPoka(5): havingfitz, FA_Q2, Wickedestjr, Formerfish, Kop
randomidget(4): massive, Saul Goode, vikingfan, Aristophanes
vikingfan(1): randomidget
Kop(1): OkaPoka

Not voting: No one

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline on 28/4/15 1900 UTC+10.
(expired on 2015-04-28 19:00:00)

[Formerfish]

Only changes made to that vc are that Ari moved his vote to Kop, and Kop unvoted.

Rando we have a day and a half to come up with a lynch, you have been silent for way to long to come in and just say, "Nope, I ain't moving." How about you talk about what weve all been talking about the last few pages. Why not say why you think Oka and Kop are town? Why not say just about fucking anything other than what you said?

[vikingfan]

ALRIGHT, i'm inclined to agree with wicked that kop and oka are town. If we look at criteria people have for suspecting people today, vikingfan fits all of them (on monkey wagon, medium conyent lecels, etc.) my vote is sticking.

Nice of you to show up. I also notice you said absolutely nothing about anything people have been discussing. So assuming you are town, are you willling to shoot tonight? are you ever going to post your promised case on oka? among other things. Don't think that your one-shot vig claim automatically gets you off the hook.

[Formerfish]

Viking, he just said that he thinks that Oka is town. I would like to know when that read changed and why though. If Rando thought he was lynched already he obviously wasn't reading, so why the change in stance?

[vikingfan]

More to the point, he says in his first post that he thought he was already lynched but will catch up. 5 minutes later he's already caught up and has an about-face that oka is town? that doesn't sound right. If he genuinely wasn't reading enough to know that he was still alive, 5 minutes is not enough to both catch up and do a change in stance.

[Wickedestjr]

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

And how exactly would scum manipulate the pr's shot? With a redirector? Well, redirectors aren't normal. With a role blocker? Well, that's not really a problem here either. If scum role blocked random's shot, then we don't have to worry about a mis-kill. If scum let random shoot, thinking he would hit town, then the worst case scenario is that a scummy player dies and we can lynch somebody else instead - which isn't too terrible considering we lost our cop already.

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it.

I think, if he's a one shot vigilante, then he would shoot who we told him to, with the condition that he gets lynched otherwise. He's useless, but not rebellious.

And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

If there's no shot, then you don't have to worry about a mis-kill... The lack of a kill doesn't seem like a problem worth discussing right now- it sounds like tomorrow's business.

[Wickedestjr]

link

Exhibit A

Post 826: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2488580

But the fact you have a strong town read on Wraith is quite funny, you are either naieve as hell or just have an off day on your scumdar

Post 859: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2491193

I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say if you flip town, wicked is probably mafia. What better way to earn town cred than to support a townie and say he is not scum.

In this game, I was town and, whada ya know, Wraith was also town.

Exhibit B

Post 1586: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5940888

It looks like he's trying to be off wagon when we flip town, but he doesn't know what to do with himself.

In this game, I was town and, whada ya know, Lying Cat was also town.

Exhibit C

Post 535: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6008535

I was telling that, if we mislynched two times, than we may be looking at wrong directions, thus being manipulated by scum either on-wagons or off-wagons. You and Egg was the two popular town reads, so it worths looking at you.

I saw many scum defending the mislynch candidate to gain town credits. And you may be one of them.

I made several posts on day 2 of this game which undermined/opposed the popular bandwagon. Nevertheless, that player was lynched and flipped town. Here, I’m accused of potentially trying to get town credit. I was town.

[Wickedestjr]

Do I trust him? No.

I don't see any reason not to trust him. Like I said, he's useless, but not rebellious. Also, lynching somebody to prevent a mis-kill is still awful.

If we give 2-3 choices they could try to pick who he would target to frame him when one kill comes out,

If random shoots scum, then this isn't an issue. If random shoots town and scum gives up their night kill for the sole purpose of framing random, then that's also a good thing - scum doesn't kill and our vig kills a suspicious townie that we would lynch otherwise.

there could be a role blocker on the scum team that would simply block Rando and frame him, or scum could just no kill to have only one flip tomorrow, then same boat for Rando.

Key word is 'could'. I also don't see the issue with scum 'framing' him. If scum roleblock random in order to frame him, then there is no vig shot tonight and random's a lynch candidate tomorrow. How is that any different from the alternative plans of A.) lynching him today or B.) keeping him alive and telling him not to kill? It isn't.

And with regards to picking those targets, scum would have a voice in the discussion and could just let Rando make the kill because they know it is going to be on town most likely (depending on the targets).

Scum also have a voice in tomorrow's lynch. Think of this hypothetical shot as a replacement for the next lynch.


Seriously guys? These arguments against my idea are plain awful.

[Iknal]

Vote Count 2.7

OkaPoka(4): havingfitz, FA_Q2, Wickedestjr, Formerfish
randomidget(4): massive, Saul Goode, vikingfan
vikingfan(1): randomidget
Kop(2): OkaPoka, Aristophanes

Not voting: Kop

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline on 30/4/15 1900 UTC+10.
(expired on 2015-04-30 19:00:00)

[FA_Q2]

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

And how exactly would scum manipulate the pr's shot? With a redirector? Well, redirectors aren't normal. With a role blocker? Well, that's not really a problem here either. If scum role blocked random's shot, then we don't have to worry about a mis-kill. If scum let random shoot, thinking he would hit town, then the worst case scenario is that a scummy player dies and we can lynch somebody else instead - which isn't too terrible considering we lost our cop already.

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it.

I think, if he's a one shot vigilante, then he would shoot who we told him to, with the condition that he gets lynched otherwise. He's useless, but not rebellious.

And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

If there's no shot, then you don't have to worry about a mis-kill... The lack of a kill doesn't seem like a problem worth discussing right now- it sounds like tomorrow's business.

No, it is terrible for him to reveal the target because it directly allows them to manipulate the power.

They can choose whether or not to roll block it based on the target or whether or not to kill him based on his target. Essentially it would give the scum team the information they need to decide if role blocking is something they should do or are they going to get another dead townie out of it.

It is unlikely that he will end up taking out a scum – declaring it beforehand is almost like protecting scum from his ability.

[Formerfish]

Wicked. If we tell Rando to shoot Kop and Kop is a town PR he is going to out himself to avoid dying, which is just as bad.

[Formerfish]

Do I trust him? No.

I don't see any reason not to trust him. Like I said, he's useless, but not rebellious. Also, lynching somebody to prevent a mis-kill is still awful.

I don't disagree. You see my vote is off Rando right?

If we give 2-3 choices they could try to pick who he would target to frame him when one kill comes out,

If random shoots scum, then this isn't an issue. If random shoots town and scum gives up their night kill for the sole purpose of framing random, then that's also a good thing - scum doesn't kill and our vig kills a suspicious townie that we would lynch otherwise.

True, if any of the picks are scum. And with a missing kill Rando gets speed lynched tomorrow.

there could be a role blocker on the scum team that would simply block Rando and frame him, or scum could just no kill to have only one flip tomorrow, then same boat for Rando.

Key word is 'could'. I also don't see the issue with scum 'framing' him. If scum roleblock random in order to frame him, then there is no vig shot tonight and random's a lynch candidate tomorrow. How is that any different from the alternative plans of A.) lynching him today or B.) keeping him alive and telling him not to kill? It isn't.

That's a fair point. Except I don't want to do either a or b to him. I want c where he kills whoever he wants.

And with regards to picking those targets, scum would have a voice in the discussion and could just let Rando make the kill because they know it is going to be on town most likely (depending on the targets).

Scum also have a voice in tomorrow's lynch. Think of this hypothetical shot as a replacement for the next lynch.

Yes they do, but its harder to convince other people to vote with you for a lynch than it is to convince one guy with a gun to take aim and fire. And I would like to have our vig be useful and not be mislynched tomorrow.

Seriously guys? These arguments against my idea are plain awful.

Do you have experience where leashing a vig/SK worked? If you do then I am all ears. If not then I'm going with people better at this game then I am who have derided the idea of leashing in any capacity.

[vikingfan]

Wicked. If we tell Rando to shoot Kop and Kop is a town PR he is going to out himself to avoid dying, which is just as bad.

Kop replaced Kelbris, and Kelbris claimed to be a VT as I recall. So this point is invalid. Oka also claimed to be VT so if we're going to instruct rando to kill someone without risking outing a PR, those are our only options.

[OkaPoka]

@wicked do you agree to have whiteknighted me?

[OkaPoka]

@wicked in all those cases, the player you defended flipped town. is there any difference in this game?