The IC and SE System

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:50 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

I have been into newbie games over a couple of years now, I played, modded etc. I have mixed opinions on the current setup (mostly positive)

Setups:
The matrix system is perfect. I don't want this to be changed anytime soon. I saw someone mentioned that the setup's should be closed and reviewed by normal group or mina. I disagree with that. This is going to increase a lot of work for Mods and also for review group. the existing setup is not completely open, It only shows the possible setup's and gives a newbie to anticipate what power roles there might be in the game. And more over, this is not causing any additional work for either mods nor list mod.
And we must not forget that moderators gain zero experience for running a newbie game, complicating the setup process will lessen mod's interest to run newbie games since it is a community service.

Semi-Experience Slot:
This is something that need some change. I personally don't think that SE players take their position seriously, they just play like and act like any other newbie (no-offence intended) except they are familiar with the site meta. I request either improvise the SE eligibility or change this is to Back-up slot for IC or even say Mini IC or so.
otherwise, I don't see newbie games are benefiting so much with SE players.

IC slot:
The current IC's are doing great job, I like how they are being selected through a review process and I see the IC's take their job quite seriously. IC's in newbie games improves game quality which is exactly why I think there is a need of back-up IC instead of too many SE's.

With that said, My conclusion is that either improve the criteria for SE sign up's or remove the SE's replace it with Back-up IC. And open those SE slots to all players, this will open place for existing players to rejoin newbie queue for learning. It will help for those who rushed into directly micro games and large games without proper newbie game experience.

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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:01 am

Post by House »

One of the big problems with IC's is that they tend to be killed off quickly, which deprives the newbies of mentoring.

I like AA's suggestion of turning the SE position into a backup IC.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:04 am

Post by Mina »

Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far. I haven't yet had time to weigh in on all the ideas in here (some of which I really like), but I feel like I'm less sure of the best path than when I started this thread! Most of the responses are contradictory.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:10 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

In post 101, House wrote:One of the big problems with IC's is that they tend to be killed off quickly, which deprives the newbies of mentoring.

I like AA's suggestion of turning the SE position into a backup IC.


Which is exactly why those SE's slots need to be improved so there will be more mentors around to coach than a single person. Go for back-up IC's or just put a review process to be eligible for SE slot.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:13 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

And one more thing... Before someone be eligible for an IC role, they should at least play a minimum amount of newbie games under SE slot. this will may improve the need for seriousness in the job.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:16 am

Post by ArcAngel9 »

In post 102, Mina wrote:Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far. I haven't yet had time to weigh in on all the ideas in here (some of which I really like), but I feel like I'm less sure of the best path than when I started this thread! Most of the responses are contradictory.


Feedbacks or opinions are always contradictory. Just go by what is best... We can't always satisfy everyone. All the very best :) :]
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:01 pm

Post by Toomai »

In post 100, ArcAngel9 wrote:I personally don't think that SE players take their position seriously, they just play like and act like any other newbie (no-offence intended) except they are familiar with the site meta.
Is this not the point? SEs aren't supposed to have any qualifications or commitments, they're supposed to fix the problem of "we don't want games to be 1-2 ICs with 7-8 newbies".
In post 91, House wrote:I'd like to see a 2-IC setup, with the requirement that both IC's cannot be scum together.

That would ensure the players that at least one of them is playing to town's win con, which can help assuage doubts as to the efficacy of the role.
Since there's already at least 3 non-newbies in a game (2 SEs + 1 IC), this is kind of already the case. The win rate of SE-IC scumteams isn't even much different than Nb-SE scumteams, so "two experienced players wreck newbie towns" isn't even true. (Not currently statistically significant, but no hint of it being an outlier either.)

I mean, I skim all newbie games as part of the stats work, and I don't recall a lot of people questioning the idea of "ICs must give valid advice regardless of alignment". Probably because it's generally a good idea to do so even if it's not a rule.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:49 pm

Post by ArcAngel9 »

See we are talking about change.. AT this point, SE's are acting just like other new players except they have knowledge on site meta. I am not saying we want to run game with all newbies.. I am absolutely fine with adding players to newbie games but SE job needs to be improved. Let's give value to that position.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:20 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

I thought the point of the SEs wasn't so that they can give extra advice to newbies, but so that they don't steal slots from newbies.

There's a huge demand for "newish player playing their fourth game in the newbie queue". The reason you can't play your third game there was at least partly an attempt to reduce that demand, IIRC, but even so, there's a potential risk of the SEs crowding the newbies out. Maybe it isn't as bad as it was.

In turn, this means that SEs can't particularly be expected to act like anything but newbies, nor to have particular insights about the game.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:22 am

Post by Vampirate »

Thread necro'd (for a good reason~)

This involves the newbie section so i'll post this hear. I was informed there was a topic about the newbie section but I could not find it so i'm posting this here. Feel free to move this to the appropriate thread.


-Frankly there should be a micro newbie section.

While the regular newbie format is good, most people come from a faster pace mafia site.

Introducing the to a few newbie micros first might help them ease more into the regular newbie games and might curb the replacing out or flaking out of games.

The other thing I could think of is to have a separate person who watches the games, doesn't play, has their own quicktopic the mod gives them and takes notes in the topic. After the mod reveals the quicktopic and the players can find out information from an outside source for any feedback.

While this is usually the IC's job, considering most IC play in multiple games as well, might not have the time for whatever reasons or just might not know what to say in post game I think it might be appropriate-

Admittedly I would not really know how to implement that though.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:44 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 107, ArcAngel9 wrote:See we are talking about change.. AT this point, SE's are acting just like other new players except they have knowledge on site meta. I am not saying we want to run game with all newbies.. I am absolutely fine with adding players to newbie games but SE job needs to be improved. Let's give value to that position.


Removing the SE slot entirely is preferable to this. Giving the SE slot a job to do like the IC slot would make it redundant to the IC slot and leave it with no reason to exist.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:04 am

Post by Plotinus »

I think even just giving the IC their own PT with the mod for recording their thoughts while the game was going on would help with the feedback thing. It’s a lot easier for me to say things when they’re fresh on my mind.

I was only IC once but once my buddy died and I had daytalk with myself, i started leaving a lot of feedback for the newer players in the mafia PT.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:07 am

Post by quadz08 »

that is actually a pretty good idea IMO
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:11 am

Post by Plotinus »

I would also totally use it to explain what I was trying to accomplish with various posts of mine. since usually i’m doing a bunch of different things at once with a post. i might write down predictions for how i think town would respond to a post and how i think scum would respond to a post and why. or use it to point out crumbs (mine or other people’s). or just any number of other things that would be antitown or just too much information to include during the game itself.

i spent most of 3p lylo privately cheerleading the newbie who i’d brought into lylo who was doing really well.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:19 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 111, Plotinus wrote:I think even just giving the IC their own PT with the mod for recording their thoughts while the game was going on would help with the feedback thing. It’s a lot easier for me to say things when they’re fresh on my mind.

I was only IC once but once my buddy died and I had daytalk with myself, i started leaving a lot of feedback for the newer players in the mafia PT.


Again, the problem is time. While good in theory, in practice most IC's might be too busy with other games, IRL stuff or just too focused on the game to contribute like that.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:23 am

Post by Plotinus »

I was overextended on mafia while I was ICing but I still managed to do it. At one point I was in 7 games which is over twice what my personal limit is. I still managed to leave proper feedback. Part of being a good IC is prioritising the newbie game that you’re ICing. I won’t say I played as well in that game as I would have if I had not been overextended on mafia, and I did not win, but it doesn’t have to be a novel either, the IC could just write a few words here and there as the game progresses. It all adds up.

anyway, next time I’ll IC I’m going to ask the mod to make me a PT for IC feedback. I can’t imagine they’d say no.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:26 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 115, Plotinus wrote:I was overextended on mafia while I was ICing but I still managed to do it. At one point I was in 7 games which is over twice what my personal limit is. I still managed to leave proper feedback. Part of being a good IC is prioritising the newbie game that you’re ICing. I won’t say I played as well in that game as I would have if I had not been overextended on mafia, and I did not win, but it doesn’t have to be a novel either, the IC could just write a few words here and there as the game progresses. It all adds up.

Well, on that level why not combine both ideas.

One person who knows the setup (outside source) who takes notes, one inside source who doesn't know the setup to take notes.

Then at the end of the game, compare them so people have 2 ways of looking at things.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:29 am

Post by Plotinus »

yeah, that’d be cool too. I think I might even enjoy doing that more than actually playing. but i’m kinda weird and the “actually interacting with other people” part is the hardest part of the game for me.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:34 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 115, Plotinus wrote:I was overextended on mafia while I was ICing but I still managed to do it. At one point I was in 7 games which is over twice what my personal limit is. I still managed to leave proper feedback. Part of being a good IC is prioritising the newbie game that you’re ICing. I won’t say I played as well in that game as I would have if I had not been overextended on mafia, and I did not win, but it doesn’t have to be a novel either, the IC could just write a few words here and there as the game progresses. It all adds up.

anyway, next time I’ll IC I’m going to ask the mod to make me a PT for IC feedback. I can’t imagine they’d say no.

Honestly though I view the IC as basically the teacher who leads by example, which I think should stay the way it is not to overburden the IC player.

As for the micro newbie games, I think 6 real life days should equal 1 playing day phase.

6 is about the in between where the newbies would get kinda used to the longer day phases but short enough to not overwhelm them.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:39 am

Post by Elbirn »

@post 109, aren't newbie games already micros? They're 9 players, which is really small.

They could have shorter deadlines to encourage a faster pace but I imagine that would do more harm than good
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:46 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 119, Elbirn wrote:@post 109, aren't newbie games already micros? They're 9 players, which is really small.

They could have shorter deadlines to encourage a faster pace but I imagine that would do more harm than good


It's really to get their feet wet, coming into this site I was used to 48-72 hours Day phases so it was quite a culture shock to go from that to 2 week Day phases. I'm of course used to it now.

However once a player has been through an X amount of micro newbie games, then they 'need' to go to the normal newbie games. As they have played an X amount of 6-7 day, day phases, they would probably easier transition to the 2 week phases. Well in theory anyways.

Or basically instead of 2 week day phases, it's 1 week day phases.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:02 am

Post by quadz08 »

newbie games are intentionally around average site deadlines - we want the newbie game experience to be similar in length and dedication to other games on site, as newbie games are intended to get new players used to site meta / standards.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:42 am

Post by popsofctown »

I don't think you and Vampirate disagree on the principles, quadz, he's just suggesting that the shift to longer deadlines be gradual. Go from 48 hour day to 168 hour day to 336 hour day.

I think it'd be important that you not send everyone to such an accelerated mini. Some people do play mafia for the first time on mafiascum, and if they have nothing to compare it to 2 weeks is fine. There may be that moment in a 2 or 3 week mafia game where you feel like, "I've been here so long, what's their left to look at", and it is somewhat uncomfortable, but it's when you have to push yourself that you become a better player, just like a runner who has run past the easy part or something.

Acclimating people to slower deadlines gradually could possibly be useful for those who have played offsite a lot if they self identify.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:13 am

Post by Vampirate »

In post 122, popsofctown wrote:I don't think you and Vampirate disagree on the principles, quadz, he's just suggesting that the shift to longer deadlines be gradual. Go from 48 hour day to 168 hour day to 336 hour day.

I think it'd be important that you not send everyone to such an accelerated mini. Some people do play mafia for the first time on mafiascum, and if they have nothing to compare it to 2 weeks is fine. There may be that moment in a 2 or 3 week mafia game where you feel like, "I've been here so long, what's their left to look at", and it is somewhat uncomfortable, but it's when you have to push yourself that you become a better player, just like a runner who has run past the easy part or something.

Acclimating people to slower deadlines gradually could possibly be useful for those who have played offsite a lot if they self identify.


Pretty much, maybe put a disclaimer saying 'For those of you who are familiar with very short day phases we reccomend....."
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:52 am

Post by Porochaz »

If people don't like the slower pace, it's better for them to know that immediately. It's not a "dipping the toe in the water" kind of thing. People either will like it or they won't. I don't think a "they will get used to it" type thing will be of any benefit.
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