Micro 474: Over the Garden Wall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Nachomamma8]

Hi guys, I'm the Old North Wind, and any town player I hammer becomes an Edlewood tree instead of outright dying. As a result, I should be hammering all lynches unless anyone else has a better hammer power than I do.

People who would be in my recruitment shortlist:
Pieguyn
Metal Sonic

People who maybe included me in their recruitment shortlist:
Pieguyn
Metal Sonic
ActionDan
Doduo

[Nachomamma8]

Hi.

VOTE: MS

Also I would not have recruited nacho. I would probably have recruited alchemist.

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

i probably have a townread on actiondan
i probably don't have a read on anyone else :'(

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Metal Sonic

i do still feel lost in this game so a good portion of this vote is sheeping pieguy but I can't say I'm a particularly huge fan of that response

my actiondan read is gut based on how he's approached the game thus far and normally wouldn't even be a feeling that hit the thread, but the thread's start wasn't exactly the most exciting.

[Nachomamma8]

gaiden *could* be scum.
i doubt that he is.

[Nachomamma8]

It was a better vote than the rest of you goobies. Still is imo.

@alch, i was watching your posting in team mafia and even if it's a town game I'd perfer that over mspamalot or unknowns. Pie/nacho would have been people who would have gotten immediate scrutiny

this thought processed is fleshed out pretty decently for earlygame, and is a good plan
it makes him less likely to be recruiter
i don't really think anyone in this playerlist would recruit him

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Lia

I probably would have recruited Nacho too. Pie and Metal would have been options as well, but Nacho mainly for his reputation as a strong player.

this was probably my least favorite response so far

[Nachomamma8]

Is pie's scumgame even good though?

My primary purpose of recruiting pie as scum would be to take town!pie out of the game. A big part of my scum strategy in a micro versus a large is that a micro is more heavily centered around finding places to hide, and removing town!pie from the game is guaranteed give me more viable pushes than any scumpartner would.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm pretty ok with honey bee so far

[Nachomamma8]

killing him n1 still gives him a day to limit my options

[Nachomamma8]

not to mention he's a really obvious protection target

[Nachomamma8]

safe

[Nachomamma8]

why

[Nachomamma8]

essentially, I don't think it's a good idea to read anyone based on who they'd recruit or how many ppl would recruit them. Dan's attitude is a better reason to town read him.

If you are scum, you have an optimal path that you will take and ultimately you will take it. Anything else that you bullshit is going to be weaker than what your actual reasoning was. Reasoning that makes sense to me and seems genuine enough is worth an early townread from me.

don't see this either. there's really nothing I'd expect him to go out of his way to do given it's post fucking 12. what did you think was safe about it?

Actually, before I answer this:

Alchemist, why pie or Metal Sonic?

[Nachomamma8]

unvote

Hey! I was called town before you were called town!
Isn't that interesting?

[Nachomamma8]

also: why did you think that you were the only viable recruit that metal sonic had?
what changed your mind?

[Nachomamma8]

i didn't unvote because i disagreed with the lynch, btw

[Nachomamma8]

what did you think was safe about it?

I thought it was safe because I figured me, you, Sonic were going to be on most people's recruit shortlists, and I assumed his reasoning would be something along the lines of play ability, but I'm now informed that assumption wasn't correct.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Doduo

[Nachomamma8]

another game?
what shit?

[Nachomamma8]

so your only real scumtell on him is...
that he's posting a lot?

[Nachomamma8]

how is he doing that?

[Nachomamma8]

mmm, i guess i don't need you to explain that

i'm decently unhappy with his shift from policy lynching me to "nacho will slay the scumteam", although rationale for that is explained by me having a timer thanks to my flavor claim
i don't really like his townread on pieguy
his townread on honey bee is strange: i had a thought that it could be ms townreading the scumpartner who recruited him, but honey bee does look ok individually and so it's still mainly a thought in the back of my mind

[Nachomamma8]

MS?

really?

Yes?

gaiden *could* be scum.
i doubt that he is.

hi mastin

What's your position on Gaiden? Do you think that he could fake that towntell? Do you think he did?

pie

why are you playing so well in here?

This seems like an odd question when you're his biggest scumread.

@Nacho, the bolded part seems pretty specific. What makes you think it could come specifically from a player being recruited? Why was it more likely to be scum-scum?

Honey Bee seems like a pretty easy target for MS to target as scum, so it seems more likely to me at this point that MS is attempting to clear a partner as opposed to shutting down a very viable mislynch without a real alternative.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't like this marquis

[Nachomamma8]

wait, i did a town tell?
can you let me know what it is so i can learn how to fake them in the future?

no

[Nachomamma8]

And if by towntell you mean "who in their right minds would pick me as their scum partner" then I don't really see why you've given it the leeway you have.

no

[Nachomamma8]

i wish i could respond with "i don't like u" but it's more like just "i'm scared of you and my total inability to recognize when my read on you is right"

like i'm pretty sure you would still make that flavor claim as scum because you have the balls to do so. and i'd imagine in this scum mechanic it'd be a great way to fly in the face of the obvious suspicion if you were scum

but alas! i am going to sit over here and on ms because i actually have a good chance of being accurate there (also easier but plus points anyway)

awww i like you too!
i keep forgetting that notscience is the one i don't like

[Nachomamma8]

I think its funny that the two people who seemed kinda adamant on gaiden's post being a townslip are the two who are voting us though!

I don't actually understand what this is supposed to mean or say but OK.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm not really suspecting you all that much anymore.

Pie, the initial reason I started pushing Doduo was because it feels like they were falling into the background. I don't really feel that's the case anymore, and like the general push on MS so far.

Vote: Alchemist

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I'm getting a gut scumlean on Gaiden. He feels more talkative than I remember his early games being.

VOTE: Gaiden

:/
This is such a weak reason for voting someone. Why do you think that he'd be more likely to post as scum than town? Why are you completely ignoring the MS push (which has much much stronger reasoning than this)? What do you think of the Gaiden townslip that's been discussed? Who do you think would have recruited Gaiden?

Who knows Gaiden well? How does he usually react to suspicion in him?

This is something you could very easily check yourself. Is he doing something that you find suspicious? If so, why not make a case out of it instead of asking other people to do your meta research for you?

[Nachomamma8]

voting scum is an option too

Hi guys, I'm the Old North Wind, and any town player I hammer becomes an Edlewood tree instead of outright dying. As a result, I should be hammering all lynches unless anyone else has a better hammer power than I do.

People who would be in my recruitment shortlist:
Pieguyn
Metal Sonic

People who maybe included me in their recruitment shortlist:
Pieguyn
Metal Sonic
ActionDan
Doduo

This is why I'm not voting my strongest scumread, just as a friendly reminder.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum cannot become Edlewood trees when hammered.
Saying dead MS would actively cause harm to the town is false and actually sort of rude.

[Nachomamma8]

Who do you think would have recruited Gaiden?

anyone who would want to troll the hell out of town.
also, what's negative utility?

bad for town

[Nachomamma8]

metal sonic?

[Nachomamma8]

you could vote, i could hammer, it could be a jolly day indeed

[Nachomamma8]

it's deadline in 2 minutes vote now

[Nachomamma8]

no i lied deadline was really in 10 minutes vote now

[Nachomamma8]

But I want you to die

What's your claim?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll believe you if you self-vote

[Nachomamma8]

you unvoted way too quickly

[Nachomamma8]

I can't defend you if you don't stay voting yourself
Alternatively, you could try to explain some stuff

[Nachomamma8]

Explain why pie is playing "so good" when, if you are town, the major thing he's been doing all game is absolute garbage

[Nachomamma8]

P.S. I can see the Sonic push, but I don't want him at L-1 yet.

why not? we have two days until deadline. nothing revolutionary is going to happen.

PPS. I don't know who if anyone would have recruited Gaiden. That doesn't stop him from being the initial scum that recruited someone, and I don't think he Towntelled just by saying he wouldn't get recruited.

probably no one would have recruited gaiden.

Explain why pie is playing "so good" when, if you are town, the major thing he's been doing all game is absolute garbage

Whether or not Pie is correct and MS is scum, I think Pie's posts have been pretty solid. Calling his posts garbage seems like an early attempt to try to discredit Pie.

it's a very strange approach to take when someone is pushing you as scum above doing anything else to just sit back and go "wow his posts as so great" instead of actually addressing the pushes he's making and trying to work with him.

Also, I'm leaning towards Nacho being more likely scum than MS being scum right now.

why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

I think you could be scum because it looks like you're trying to discredit the player you said you didn't want to be Town in this game. You've stated that you feel Pie would be a threat to your scum game to the point that you would recruit him just so he wouldn't be Town. I can see you as scum wanting to try to shut him down early as scum if you did not or could not recruit him.

I don't understand how I'm discrediting him.
I'm not saying that pie's scummy, or that pie isn't town.
I'm not calling her a bad player.
I'm not saying that her pushes this game don't make sense or are bad (I have followed her on her push for the entire game).

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call her posts fantastic and super good if you're the one who she is pushing because, if you were town, the direction she would be pushing the game is completely wrong.

I also don't understand how you could possibly make this push while pie is making the exact same argument than I am.

[Nachomamma8]

can nacho selfhammer

yep

[Nachomamma8]

How often has MS seen you make long posts as Town? If that was the only time I could see him forgetting you could do that.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like the way Alchemist is handling the wagon (he's been the main/only pusher of a counterwagon all day, has defended MS multiple points, still is vocal about being willing to vote there eventually) . I don't like his suspicion on me. I don't like the push on Gaiden.

If Alchemist isn't scumpartner, I think Doduo would also be a decent possibility. Pushing MS and doing absolutely nothing else and not being particularly interested in forming/pushing a case seems very much like scumbuddy interactions.

I do wonder why the hell the day continues to be stalled out, though. In the past (three?) days when I last called for a hammer, absolutely nothing even mildly interesting has happened.

[Nachomamma8]

I think you could be scum because it looks like you're trying to discredit the player you said you didn't want to be Town in this game. You've stated that you feel Pie would be a threat to your scum game to the point that you would recruit him just so he wouldn't be Town. I can see you as scum wanting to try to shut him down early as scum if you did not or could not recruit him.

I don't understand how I'm discrediting him.
I'm not saying that pie's scummy, or that pie isn't town.
I'm not calling her a bad player.
I'm not saying that her pushes this game don't make sense or are bad (I have followed her on her push for the entire game).

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call her posts fantastic and super good if you're the one who she is pushing because, if you were town, the direction she would be pushing the game is completely wrong.

I also don't understand how you could possibly make this push while pie is making the exact same argument than I am.

You called Pie's posts garbage. That's a discredit. Even if the conclusion is wrong, you can still appreciate the quality of a player's posts because being wrong =/= being mafia and being right =/= being Town. In open 591, I correctly started scumreading 2 players (1 SK, 1 Mafia) because even though they expressed Townreads on me, the Townreads didn't quite make sense. Even if someone's read is wrong, you can appreciate the fleshed out thought processs behind them acquiring their reads.

garbage was strong language meaning pushing the game in a direction that is incorrect

[Nachomamma8]

I think that Nacho even considering that Alchey is scum, let alone my scum partner, is pretty freaking disingenuous and I wouldn't be really shocked if he was the scum recruit.

What has alchemist done that's been unfakeable?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho... Bussing is SO strongly discouraged in a micro with 2 scums.

I can't believe you even came up with the idea that both of us are scum (together?! Seriously?!)

I've bussed day 1 and coasted in plenty of micro games

[Nachomamma8]

What has ANYONE done that's been unfakeable?

The question is more important for you to answer because you are the one claiming me considering alchemy scum is scummy

[Nachomamma8]

Alchemist, you missed my most recent post to you.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay!

[Nachomamma8]

i actually don't really want to say it but

i want a lia lynch significantly more than a ms lynch right now
and that's like
a lot

Marquis, you call ms not 100% town and start a counterwagon, he immediately follows you and calls you obvtown

[Nachomamma8]

That is quite possibly the most blatant survivalism I have ever seen

[Nachomamma8]

fuck

i think ms is scum but even more that lia is scum over ms

like she's trying to agree with ms and agree with minor points against me for placement and to try and go against the grain

her hydrapost obfuscation tinfoil agreement right now just reeks of scum. like all the ping, everywhere

The obfuscation tinfoil argument was horse shit yes but it was an argument that belonged to ms and ms alone

[Nachomamma8]

finding both you and ms scummy was my initial reaction to your argument. I don't find that as a position scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

I said agreement.

Not argument.

If this is a misunderstanding on your part, it's major.

she didn't agree with it anywhere

[Nachomamma8]

marquis lets vote metal sonic again

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't notice she agreed with the tinfoil theory which is horrible

[Nachomamma8]

But I'm not switching wagons because she agreed with a terrible argument ms made

[Nachomamma8]

Metal Sonic, why haven't you claimed yet?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm hammering pretty soon.

[Nachomamma8]

I think this wagon is stupid.

[Nachomamma8]

marquis lets vote metal sonic again

I didn't notice she agreed with the tinfoil theory which is horrible

But I'm not switching wagons because she agreed with a terrible argument ms made

my gunshot thought here was that nacho's scum relying on nachoclout to push something through and half-tripping over himself in the process of trying to look natural about this whole thing

i also feel like he should be able to see how tense i'm feeling about these dual scumreads right now and coming into it the way he did felt like totally handwaving away my current thought process as it started to even slightly shift away from ms, and also manipulative as fuck at that

You have a strong suspicion of Lia because of her agreeing with an argument that Metal Sonic made. This is a bad play because you know metal knows better than that argument (which is complete and utter horseshit, again) while I don't know Lia well enough to make that type of call.

You also suspect Lia for "egging you on". Why does Lia-scum have to egg on the Metal Sonic lynch? It was the only viable wagon for the majority of the day. There wasn't a real chance of the wagon going anywhere else. This scumtell doesn't make sense and it sure as hell doesn't excuse dismantling the Metal Sonic wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

I responded to your suspicion the way I did because I didn't think it was as serious as it was. I made a bad assumption that your paranoia fit was temporary, and I assumed all you needed was a "hey marquis, stop being paranoid for no real reason!". I didn't think you could actually start townreading metal sonic after his play this game because it hasn't been anything even resembling "town".

[Nachomamma8]

Lia, you should probably claim

[Nachomamma8]

If you have other reasons though, I would love your support on this wagon.

this seemed town

[Nachomamma8]

only actual viable ms pair left is probably honey bee/ms although interactions are still weird if that's the case

[Nachomamma8]

Mmm, I forgot about that.
Lovely.

[Nachomamma8]

I am not hammering you.

[Nachomamma8]

We need 5? Dan, Lia, Sonic, me, ???

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Honey Bee

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be back in three hours. I'm probably more amendable to a no lynch than an ms lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum is in Alchemist/Lia. I don't think we have the numbers to lynch either.

[Nachomamma8]

Ms seems pretty town from the self-vote earlier, but a lynch is probably better than a no lynch in this situation although a claim would very much help things

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be back in an hour.

[Nachomamma8]

Ms should probably be self voting right around now, only have an hour left and I can't check in much

[Nachomamma8]

Or honey vote metal sonic

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Metal Sonic

[Nachomamma8]

@Lia, why do you think Doduo is scum?

Where did your vote on me go?

[Nachomamma8]

I also very much feel Lia is scum.
I received Tea in an end of the day report yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

The strongest reason to call Doduo town for me is the deadline scramble. The way he went about it seemed very, very town, especially if Lia is scum.

I don't really think there's a significant chance of pieguy being scum after yesterday.

I thought Honey Bee's end of day posting was pretty town and also felt bad bad about the vote when I placed it yesterday.

I still don't think Gaiden is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Pie

By the way, I think we should be reluctant to put anyone to L-1 until we're ready to lynch as I suspect there may be more voting shenanigans going on in the game.

More voting shenanigans going on with this game? What made you think this?

(the reason I'm asking is because I think your answer could possibly be decently town, if you don't remember your theory from this long ago that works too)

I'd like the answer to this as well. Unless I'm being stalked I don't think AD has ever seen my scumgame.

I don't really think this makes sense as a cause for suspicion?

hmmm, with this recruit mechanic, doesn't this mean i'm totes conftown since no one in their right mind would recruit me?

So, imagining Gaiden as scum in this particular scenario requires:
1) Him being recruited and brazenly claiming that no one would recruit him (don't really see who would).
2) Him being the recruiter and trying to claim that he's town based on him being the not-original scum.

Both of these scenarios seem decently likely to me.

hmmm, with this recruit mechanic, doesn't this mean i'm totes conftown since no one in their right mind would recruit me?

Nope. It means you're confscum for just that reason, but then ...

I don't understand this/see the point behind whatever this was.

VOTE: lia

Sing something

Is there a reason you switched to Lia?

This question seems pretty surface level.

Unvote

I'm seeing the case on MS but it's not enough to push for a lynch there yet. I'm getting a couple of twinges about others but nothing worth mentioning yet as I don't know them well enough to know whether it's significant.

I don't like this approach to the MS wagon in general because 1) it was her approach to the Metal Sonic wagon for pretty much the entire game IIRC and 2) it's an approach with a good amount of scum intent behind it in that you are encouraging the lynch of a townie but also not voting on the wagon and risking getting criticized for jumping on the lynch.

I could potentially see myself agreeing on Bee, but I want him to do more first.

What were the reasons you were townreading Bee initially?

[Nachomamma8]

I wish I could but they're both gut reads really. With MS he just doesn't seem as comfortable as I've seen him elsewhere, and post 21 felt a bit odd as I'd assumed his vote in 14 was just rvs. It's not strong but it's the best I've got so far. With Honey bee it's even weaker but it started with 48; I don't see how anyone could get a townread on MS at that point and the explanation in 50 wasn't really very convincing.

Hmmmm.
The explanation for her read on Metal Sonic (namely, "doesn't seem comfortable" and "i thought his vote was rvs but it wasn't") are weak as hell and she's aware of them being weak as hell, so Honey Bee having a townread on Metal Sonic being so unacceptable that she's automatically a scumread because of it is strange.

P.S. I can see the Sonic push, but I don't want him at L-1 yet.

This is the exact reason Lia had for pushing Metal Sonic as scum.
Part of me thinks scum wouldn't approach the mislynch wagon in the exact same way and doesn't understand the Lia-Alchemist dynamic (why would Lia recruit Alchemist? Why would Alchemist recruit Lia?) but another part of me has decent townreads on everyone else so :/

Calling his posts garbage seems like an early attempt to try to discredit Pie.

i don't see why you think my plan versus pie would be to discredit him by calling his posts garbage once, specifically in a hypothetical context
that seems incredibly, incredibly dumb: 1) i'm not going to actually manage to convince pie or anyone else that pie is a bad player when he has plenty of games wrecking the shit out of scum because i say "oh if metal sonic is town your push was too narrowly focused", and 2) there's no need for me to discredit pie if he's not pushing me and i'm encouraging a wagon on the player he's pushing.

I'm actually somewhat paranoid about Alch's recent posts, but my feelings there aren't particularly strong and, on reread, I think some of his posts elsewhere look kinda town (namely Gaiden push).

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

blargh

Vote: Lia

that didn't help as much as i hoped it would

[Nachomamma8]

Lia, who would you have recruited?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

[Nachomamma8]

is there any reason we're continuing to drag the day out again? there's basically nothing going on here.

I want to take time to actually do things this game if possible. The time for that will come Friday morning.