Micro 474: Over the Garden Wall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[pieguyn]

vote: Lia

[Kagami]

Official Vote Count

Doduo

(2): Lia, Honey bee

Lia

(1): pieguyn

SXTLHGaiden

(1): Doduo

Not Voting

(3): Alchemist21, SXTLHGaiden, Nachomamma8

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-05-29 09:13:35)

[Honey bee]

Doduo is town bc of Marquis' play. I alluded to this earlier, but when Marquis is scum he usually relies on mass amounts of ATE and playing up how "emotional/genuine" he is in order to make ppl not realize he's not actually game solving. this isn't what he's doing here. his posting at DL is another thing that made me think he was likely town - his thoughts on Lia matched mine as I was reading through it, and his push on Nacho made sense even though I disagree with it.

I don't think his scum game is that simple but i want to figure out some info after that mess of a day. Their recent activity confuses me.

[Nachomamma8]

@Lia, why do you think Doduo is scum?

Where did your vote on me go?

[Nachomamma8]

I also very much feel Lia is scum.
I received Tea in an end of the day report yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

The strongest reason to call Doduo town for me is the deadline scramble. The way he went about it seemed very, very town, especially if Lia is scum.

I don't really think there's a significant chance of pieguy being scum after yesterday.

I thought Honey Bee's end of day posting was pretty town and also felt bad bad about the vote when I placed it yesterday.

I still don't think Gaiden is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Pie

By the way, I think we should be reluctant to put anyone to L-1 until we're ready to lynch as I suspect there may be more voting shenanigans going on in the game.

More voting shenanigans going on with this game? What made you think this?

(the reason I'm asking is because I think your answer could possibly be decently town, if you don't remember your theory from this long ago that works too)

I'd like the answer to this as well. Unless I'm being stalked I don't think AD has ever seen my scumgame.

I don't really think this makes sense as a cause for suspicion?

hmmm, with this recruit mechanic, doesn't this mean i'm totes conftown since no one in their right mind would recruit me?

So, imagining Gaiden as scum in this particular scenario requires:
1) Him being recruited and brazenly claiming that no one would recruit him (don't really see who would).
2) Him being the recruiter and trying to claim that he's town based on him being the not-original scum.

Both of these scenarios seem decently likely to me.

hmmm, with this recruit mechanic, doesn't this mean i'm totes conftown since no one in their right mind would recruit me?

Nope. It means you're confscum for just that reason, but then ...

I don't understand this/see the point behind whatever this was.

VOTE: lia

Sing something

Is there a reason you switched to Lia?

This question seems pretty surface level.

Unvote

I'm seeing the case on MS but it's not enough to push for a lynch there yet. I'm getting a couple of twinges about others but nothing worth mentioning yet as I don't know them well enough to know whether it's significant.

I don't like this approach to the MS wagon in general because 1) it was her approach to the Metal Sonic wagon for pretty much the entire game IIRC and 2) it's an approach with a good amount of scum intent behind it in that you are encouraging the lynch of a townie but also not voting on the wagon and risking getting criticized for jumping on the lynch.

I could potentially see myself agreeing on Bee, but I want him to do more first.

What were the reasons you were townreading Bee initially?

[Nachomamma8]

I wish I could but they're both gut reads really. With MS he just doesn't seem as comfortable as I've seen him elsewhere, and post 21 felt a bit odd as I'd assumed his vote in 14 was just rvs. It's not strong but it's the best I've got so far. With Honey bee it's even weaker but it started with 48; I don't see how anyone could get a townread on MS at that point and the explanation in 50 wasn't really very convincing.

Hmmmm.
The explanation for her read on Metal Sonic (namely, "doesn't seem comfortable" and "i thought his vote was rvs but it wasn't") are weak as hell and she's aware of them being weak as hell, so Honey Bee having a townread on Metal Sonic being so unacceptable that she's automatically a scumread because of it is strange.

P.S. I can see the Sonic push, but I don't want him at L-1 yet.

This is the exact reason Lia had for pushing Metal Sonic as scum.
Part of me thinks scum wouldn't approach the mislynch wagon in the exact same way and doesn't understand the Lia-Alchemist dynamic (why would Lia recruit Alchemist? Why would Alchemist recruit Lia?) but another part of me has decent townreads on everyone else so :/

Calling his posts garbage seems like an early attempt to try to discredit Pie.

i don't see why you think my plan versus pie would be to discredit him by calling his posts garbage once, specifically in a hypothetical context
that seems incredibly, incredibly dumb: 1) i'm not going to actually manage to convince pie or anyone else that pie is a bad player when he has plenty of games wrecking the shit out of scum because i say "oh if metal sonic is town your push was too narrowly focused", and 2) there's no need for me to discredit pie if he's not pushing me and i'm encouraging a wagon on the player he's pushing.

I'm actually somewhat paranoid about Alch's recent posts, but my feelings there aren't particularly strong and, on reread, I think some of his posts elsewhere look kinda town (namely Gaiden push).

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

blargh

Vote: Lia

that didn't help as much as i hoped it would

[Lia]

@Lia, why do you think Doduo is scum?

It started off as a pressure vote in 308 because I couldn't get a clear read on them and they were ignoring requests from me and others to help by identifying their posts. They continued to be unhelpful with that. I agreed with MS about them in 355 because he put into words what I was already thinking. They only started attacking me after this. It looks like they, or one of them, were catching up on page 16 then in 400 they started pushing for my lynch seemingly for the sole reason that I thought that they were making it difficult to read them.

[Lia]

in general, I don't like the way Lia handled the MS wagon.

she kept saying she was OK with lynching him and that she was seeing the case on him, but then kept searching for reasons to stay off the wagon. when she *did* have a concrete reason for MS being town (356), she did nothing to convince other people of it or actually explain why she thought it was town. I don't think she really cared about sorting MS here - it looked more like was just preparing to look better after MS flipped town.

Only

once

did I say I was still ok with lynching MS after my scumread on him weakened and that was in 334, which was before I got a townread on him from 348, so to claim that I kept saying that is wrong. The claim that I kept searching for reasons to stay off the wagon is also wrong. My reason, that I didn't want to put him at L-1, remained the same while I was still scumreading him. If you'd wanted to know why I thought 348 was town you could have asked me but you didn't.

her agreeing with the angle that Doduo is deliberately obfuscating heads is one thing that specifically makes me think this - I don't really think someone would actually find smth like that convincing.

I wasn't "convinced" by that because I was already thinking that due to their refusal to clarify who was posting what.

Doduo is town bc of Marquis' play. I alluded to this earlier, but when Marquis is scum he usually relies on mass amounts of ATE and playing up how "emotional/genuine" he is in order to make ppl not realize he's not actually game solving. this isn't what he's doing here. his posting at DL is another thing that made me think he was likely town - his thoughts on Lia matched mine as I was reading through it, and his push on Nacho made sense even though I disagree with it.

Can you summarise their thoughts on me then please because I'm not seeing any more than I mentioned in my previous post. I'll come back to the bit about Nacho later.

[Nachomamma8]

Lia, who would you have recruited?

[Lia]

More voting shenanigans going on with this game? What made you think this?

(the reason I'm asking is because I think your answer could possibly be decently town, if you don't remember your theory from this long ago that works too)

It was the use of the words "by default" in the voting rules. We've seen one example of a change in requirements but there may be others. Kagami put a role that affected voting in Micro 415 so I could see that there might be something similar here.

I don't understand this/see the point behind whatever this was.

There wasn't a point. I was just jokingly accusing him of WIFOM.

I don't like this approach to the MS wagon in general because 1) it was her approach to the Metal Sonic wagon for pretty much the entire game IIRC and 2) it's an approach with a good amount of scum intent behind it in that you are encouraging the lynch of a townie but also not voting on the wagon and risking getting criticized for jumping on the lynch.

I never had a strong enough reason to put him at L-1 and he remained on three votes most of the Day so I never had occasion to vote him before my attention turned elsewhere.

Hmmmm.
The explanation for her read on Metal Sonic (namely, "doesn't seem comfortable" and "i thought his vote was rvs but it wasn't") are weak as hell and she's aware of them being weak as hell, so Honey Bee having a townread on Metal Sonic being so unacceptable that she's automatically a scumread because of it is strange.

I wouldn't have had a problem with a null read, but the town read seemed off so I wondered if there was either a connection there or an early attempt to buddy.

[Lia]

Lia, who would you have recruited?

I think I might have gone for Alchemist as being a good player but not one of the obvious ones. Although an imp in me says Gaiden would be so unlikely a choice as to be worth the risk of having someone who would probably be lynched or investigated.

[pieguyn]

They only started attacking me after this. It looks like they, or one of them, were catching up on page 16 then in 400 they started pushing for my lynch seemingly for the sole reason that I thought that they were making it difficult to read them.

except this is quite obviously not why they were pushing for your lynch. first off, both Marquis and notsci had said (416/426) that it was not about you pushing this but specifically the *way* in which you did it - that it felt more like you were just attempting to follow along with what MS was saying as opposed to pushing it yourself. second, Marquis cited (430) 356 as a reason for pushing you as scum - likely for the same reason I am (that it didn't feel like you *actually* wanted to do anything to shut down the pressure on MS here).

Only once did I say I was still ok with lynching MS after my scumread on him weakened and that was in 334, which was before I got a townread on him from 348, so to claim that I kept saying that is wrong. The claim that I kept searching for reasons to stay off the wagon is also wrong. My reason, that I didn't want to put him at L-1, remained the same while I was still scumreading him. If you'd wanted to know why I thought 348 was town you could have asked me but you didn't.

the entire point is that over the course of the game you did a lot to further the MS lynch, but didn't do anything to stop it once you supposedly had a town read on him

it doesn't matter why, specifically, you were reading 348 as town (although I can't say I'd mind if you justified it). what I'm saying is that, sans saying 348 was town, there was no further elaboration beyond that re: *why*, specifically, it was town.

fully explaining why you're town reading someone is a natural first step in attempting to push a town read/derail a lynch, but you didn't do this - it felt more like you were just giving a bullshit throwaway reason for MS being town in order to look better after he flipped

I wasn't "convinced" by that because I was already thinking that due to their refusal to clarify who was posting what.

what I was saying is that I would not expect anyone to actually think this is a good argument

I could break down specifically why but there's not much of a point. I'm more interested in specifically what strategic benefit you think there is for scum hydras obfuscating posts and how it applies to Doduo in this game (especially when you had outright said you had figured out how to tell who was posting what anyway).

[pieguyn]

I don't think his scum game is that simple but i want to figure out some info after that mess of a day. Their recent activity confuses me.

I'm pretty sure this is what he does in all of his scum games. the specific way he goes about it is different from game to game (the most recent game he acted lost all game and played up how apathetic he was and how he didn't have any reads, the game before that he basically did nothing the entire latter half of the game besides making 1 wall post every 2 days trying to look as genuine as possible), but there's the same pattern of emotional posting there.

Where did your vote on me go?

this is probably not alignment indicative for reasons I will not elaborate on unless it's convenient for me.

[pieguyn]

What were the reasons you were townreading Bee initially?

at that point it was entirely gut based on the way he was questioning me, I thought it looked somewhat genuine. after that the rest of his content looked town enough that I didn't have a problem with it.

Why?

primarily bc of him switching off Gaiden and pushing you instead - part of me thought he saw the Gaiden push not going anywhere and MS still being a lead wagon and deciding to try out a different counterwagon to see where it'd go. it's obviously a moot point now, though.

the push on Gaiden itself I thought looked town half for the not-so-serious way he went about it (this is kind of biased bc in his scum game I remember he didn't really post like that whereas he did in his town game. either way it's not that strong of a tell) and half bc I thought what he was picking up on made sense for someone to think even though I didn't agree with it.

[Honey bee]

I'm pretty sure this is what he does in all of his scum games. the specific way he goes about it is different from game to game (the most recent game he acted lost all game and played up how apathetic he was and how he didn't have any reads, the game before that he basically did nothing the entire latter half of the game besides making 1 wall post every 2 days trying to look as genuine as possible), but there's the same pattern of emotional posting there.

It's not something I've observed at least and it's not really something I believe will always try. What posts do you see here do you think can't come from his scum game?

[Doduo]

VOTE: Lia

Refuck the police

[Kagami]

Official Vote Count

Lia

(3): pieguyn, Nachomamma8, Doduo

Doduo

(2): Lia, Honey bee

Not Voting

(2): Alchemist21, SXTLHGaiden

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-05-29 09:13:35)

[Lia]

except this is quite obviously not why they were pushing for your lynch. first off, both Marquis and notsci had said (416/426) that it was not about you pushing this but specifically the *way* in which you did it - that it felt more like you were just attempting to follow along with what MS was saying as opposed to pushing it yourself. second, Marquis cited (430) 356 as a reason for pushing you as scum - likely for the same reason I am (that it didn't feel like you *actually* wanted to do anything to shut down the pressure on MS here).

In 232 I asked Doduo for information. They ignored me completely. I repeated that in 308 when I moved my vote to them from MS. At this point it was as much a pressure vote as anything else. They again ignored my request. And I wasn't the only one that was asking. Why would they not want to be readable if they were town? That's why I agreed with MS's comment in 349, because it said what I was already thinking. They did refer to the subject in 384 and 386 but what they said didn't help at all. And then in 400 they started pushing for my lynch.

As far as I can see they want to lynch me purely because I wanted to get a read on them and thought they were being obstructive. My agreement with MS's comment was just an excuse for them. They haven't given any other reason. As for 430, they just quoted two of my posts and said I was scum. That added nothing to their case at all.

[Lia]

the entire point is that over the course of the game you did a lot to further the MS lynch, but didn't do anything to stop it once you supposedly had a town read on him

it doesn't matter why, specifically, you were reading 348 as town (although I can't say I'd mind if you justified it). what I'm saying is that, sans saying 348 was town, there was no further elaboration beyond that re: *why*, specifically, it was town.

fully explaining why you're town reading someone is a natural first step in attempting to push a town read/derail a lynch, but you didn't do this - it felt more like you were just giving a bullshit throwaway reason for MS being town in order to look better after he flipped

Part of the reason for not elaborating on it was because it was a gut read. The post felt town. The rest was due to lack of time. But there is good stuff in that post. What do you think about what MS said about Doduo there?

what I was saying is that I would not expect anyone to actually think this is a good argument

I could break down specifically why but there's not much of a point. I'm more interested in specifically what strategic benefit you think there is for scum hydras obfuscating posts and how it applies to Doduo in this game (especially when you had outright said you had figured out how to tell who was posting what anyway).

I didn't mean I had completely figured out how to tell who was posting, only that I thought I had worked out who posted what up till then. And as for benefit, anything that distracts or gets in the way is useful for scum.

[Alchemist21]

@Lia, I've seen hydra heads refuse to sign as Town before. It's annoying, but I don't take that as alignment indicative, especially when a hydra could try earning easy Town cred by being cooperative and start signing posts. I also Townread their D1 tunnel vision on MS, because I consider tuneeling to be more likely coming from Town.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not sure how I feel about Gaiden anymore. He actually hadn't matched the pattern I've observed before in his scum meta and now he's gone back to his usual lurky self apparantly, but I think he's aware of his scum meta and I don't know how willing or capable he is of manipulating it.

I have a good reason for not wanting Nacho's head on a platter anymore.

P.S. @Nacho, in hindsight I realize I misinterpreted your post where you said Pie's posts were garbage.

[SXTLHGaiden]

I'm not sure how I feel about Gaiden anymore. He actually hadn't matched the pattern I've observed before in his scum meta and now he's gone back to his usual lurky self apparantly, but I think he's aware of his scum meta and I don't know how willing or capable he is of manipulating it.

I have a good reason for not wanting Nacho's head on a platter anymore.

P.S. @Nacho, in hindsight I realize I misinterpreted your post where you said Pie's posts were garbage.

I'm still totes conftown.
Also, i am somewhat self-aware. Your use of my "meta" is funny
anyway, sorry about my lack of posting this weekend, i've had a guest over.

i kinda feel like you are scum from this post.