New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[dragonspawn]

Eh, why not?

VOTE: Ozgin



Dunno if he's tryhard scum or tryhard town, will assume the former for now because his push on me feels calculated~

Thank you for reinforcing my point for me.

[Ozgin]

Ozgin:
Three votes in 6 minutes is fast for a smaller game. This is the first 10 pages in a 21 player game. Go look at other 21 player games, especially with multiball setups.
I agree that poor reasons for voting are poor.
However, my reasons for following Cheetory on the wagon were trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.
If you think there's better reasons for joining into a wagon on early D1, propose them.
No one's done anything incriminating enough to warrant an actual-factual town-whole wagon.
In fact, every wagon will likely be a bit scum-sided given our teams.
So calling out people on a 3-person wagon is derisive and hurts game momentum.
Furthermore, your post against me tries to scumpaint me over lack of your own understanding. Just because you don't comprehend a motive or a post does not make the poster scum--it only speaks to your own perception. This forces me into assuming one of two things; You lack perception or you are trying to leverage a lynch onto me. I'd rather assume you're a good player. So, I've got to figure that you're aligned differently than I am or you're bad at the game.
So, that's why I called you out. I wanna see your feathers get a bit ruffled here. I want to see if you'll either prove to have made a mistake in reading me or if you'll prove to be someone that town needs to lynch.

P-EDIT:
I'm down for an Ozgin wagon~
VOTE: Ozgin

-sigh-

Read my 156, where I told explicitly stated that my reads were shitty.

Then read your 62 where you mention literally nothing about "trust in both Cheetory

as well as

trust in Cheetory's approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player.," then read your 136 where you say that you don't think the pressure is working, which contradicts that you trust the approach of applying earlygame pressure via a strong early wagon onto a questionable player. And I believe you only say that you don't think the pressure is working on House because you sense that the town isn't receiving the House wagon very well, and as scum you want to avoid that level of conflict.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

PEDIT: OH my God, here we go:

@Varsoon, I refer to myself as what I am, if I'm a citizen I'm inclined to say citizen. What a fucking mute point you generate here.
@SilverWolf, Yeah, it was a dark analogy, but it was an extreme hypothetical designed to test lala's logic. Just because it's an unpleasant scenario to think about does not degrade the fact that lala's logic fails in a situation where the same logic would be applied. I'm sorry if you're a bit offended, but it's merely a hypothetical and should be treated as such.
@Cheetory, How isn't it? I think you're just riding the popular opinion that it's unpleasant, not that it doesn't do what it's designed to.

PEDIT2:
@Varsoon, Wouldn't the proper way to go about it say, "To those on the wagon, please say why you're on it?"

PEDIT3:
@Titus, It was completely prompted but okay. I think your naked vote and you playing to your emotions rather than your senses is worse than a little dark analogy.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think that, in a game based on language and logic, tearing apart someone's shitty logic is useless, nor is it inflammatory. And frankly, my dear, I couldn't give a damn less if you don't want to play.

This is unusually aggressive for you Ozgin.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

Are you claiming Citizen already? WTF?

[Ozgin]

I like how this wagon began right before I went to bed, I'm glad I double-checked while I was updating my reads chart.

Good night everybody, this is a battle I'll fight tomorrow (which is good because maybe we'll hear from House and others who have yet to post substantial information!).

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

[Ozgin]

Meh, I'm feeling scumhunty tonight. I'm trying to change up my town game, because apparently when I was scum in 180 and posted long and thought-out reads I was read as town, so I figure that I might as well do the same thing when I'm actually town. My win-rate as town is literally 0%, and my win-rate for scum is literally 100%. I'd like to change that.

[Cheetory6]

Saying that a child could grow up to become a villain isn't the same.
It'd be a better analogy if like if you cloned a villain and knew that said child would have clear potential to become a terrible villain. House has a proven history of being a bastardman. He's not a blank slate like you're trying to make him out to be. And it's also being dismissive of the experiences that other people have had with him. Also, you can't say that I'm riding the popular opinion because I'm not calling you scummy for it, so calm down jeze like wow man get your knickers outta a knot or something.

Now stop asking me things so I can finish packing and then start making actually useful posts.
c:

[Titus]

I like how this wagon began right before I went to bed, I'm glad I double-checked while I was updating my reads chart.

Good night everybody, this is a battle I'll fight tomorrow (which is good because maybe we'll hear from House and others who have yet to post substantial information!).

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

Yeah, don't think so. Citizen is not the default way of claiming town. If it was a subtle thing, you'd claim the default for games you usually play.

Also, I don't like how dismissive you're being. Your "Citizen" claim is shit.

[Ozgin]

Fair enough, but I'd argue that, even though he has experience as scum,

in any given game, he is given a blank slate to make of it as he will, so to kill him because he might end up being scum is stupid logic by itself.

And I like how this all turned into a big distraction from that point - lala's reason was literally just because he "might" be scum. Any one of us "might" be scum at this point, we don't fucking have any lynches/flips/solid evidence otherwise.

@Titus - That makes no sense, how is my Citizen "claim" shit, and how am I being dismissive about it? And did I say that it's the default was of claiming town? No. I said it's

my

way.

I know what I said, and I meant it.

[Varsoon]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

[Ozgin]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

The fact that no wagon on lynch will be 100% town isn't being disputed. You're trying to shift the point of your argument. You're moving the goalposts.

My point is that not only did I retract my vote and state that it was a shitty read, but your claim that you "trusted Cheetory's approach" of blah blah blah is bullshit because you never stated that, and even if it's true I couldn't have known that because

you never stated that.

In fact, my second point is that your second post seemingly contradicts that you support building a wagon on someone to build pressure, because you're

against

the House wagon, which was allegedly started because people want to "pressure House" and "get a response from House."

I agree that you need momentum, but no vote should be truly random. That's just bad form. You want momentum or footholds? You read the little discrepancies between peoples' posts and the facts of the game, or between peoples' reasons and votes. That's how you build a good wagon on someone, that's how you make sense of the chaos that is RVS (in my humble opinion).

[Ozgin]

EBWOP - I referred to myself as "town" when discussing my winrate because I wasn't referring to myself in this particular game, I was referring to myself in every game (I've been VT, Townie, and Citizen all), and so I felt it appropriate to use "town" when discussing my winrate.

[SilverWolf]

Good lord Ozgin, slow down. You are throwing me for a loop. I need to process. I'm not sure if you are over aggressive town or try hard scum but I haven't seen you like this before.

Relax or something please.

[lalaladucks]

lala-Yeah, jumping on the wagon here seems opportunistic and using and RVS reason to do so is meh, not a big fan.

Okay, but I'm gonna keep my vote there until he arrives ^~^

Oops, broke my promise!
Think Ozgin is actually tryhard town despite his weird little inconsistencies mentioned while House is obvscum - how about we lynch him?
VOTE: House

[Ozgin]

Also, my last point on the Citizen thing and then I'm really going to bed, but I have myself written as citizen in my excel sheet (I have myself there because I just typed the list as the OP has it, and then I didn't feel like changing it after I already put my name in it, so I just threw down "Citizen, given" on my chart, and I've been using it as reference all game. Of course I'm gonna say "Citizen" when talking about myself in this game.

PEdit: Sorry Wolfie, I'm getting a little emotionally evolved and I need to pull that out of my thoughts here. I don't get emotional at all when I'm scum, and that's what you saw the most of with me in 180, so yeah of course you're not used to it. But that statement doesn't mean shit, my self-meta is useless and I'll leave you to your own conclusions.

[Varsoon]

Nope, I'm redirecting attention onto you.
Why are you now referring to your reads as 'town' when you were adamant to adhere to 'citizen' earlier?

I read the things you told me to read, but I disagree with your points.
I'm going to go ahead and restate--no wagon on lynch will be 100% town.
This is a 14-3-3-1 setup.

Your interaction with Titus is a real downer and I'mma have to side with Titus here.

It's D1, first 10 pages.
You've gotta grab onto the little footholds and build momentum.
Chip at the armor
All that noise.

En Garde.

The fact that no wagon on lynch will be 100% town isn't being disputed. You're trying to shift the point of your argument. You're moving the goalposts.

My point is that not only did I retract my vote and state that it was a shitty read, but your claim that you "trusted Cheetory's approach" of blah blah blah is bullshit because you never stated that, and even if it's true I couldn't have known that because

you never stated that.

In fact, my second point is that your second post seemingly contradicts that you support building a wagon on someone to build pressure, because you're

against

the House wagon, which was allegedly started because people want to "pressure House" and "get a response from House."

I agree that you need momentum, but no vote should be truly random. That's just bad form. You want momentum or footholds? You read the little discrepancies between peoples' posts and the facts of the game, or between peoples' reasons and votes. That's how you build a good wagon on someone, that's how you make sense of the chaos that is RVS (in my humble opinion).

You don't SAY that a pressure vote is a pressure vote. You just vote. The act of me voting showed that I agree with Cheetory on the pressure he was applying.
I was against the House wagon because it seemingly relied on House conf-towning himself and was rooting itself in that, which is silly.

I think I'm doing just fine with my vote on you. :3

Also, you mention in 185 that this is the most excited game you've had to play as citizen in a normal, implying that you're referring to multiple plays as citizen, as if you're using citizen to just mean town. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem like you're referring to yourself as a citizen just here, and the inconsistency in use of citizen/town is weird.

P-EDIT: What makes House obvious-scum, @

lalaladucks

?


And we can stop debating the citizen thing. We'll know when we know.

[Ozgin]

I agree on the end of the debate about it, it's silly.

I suppose I could concede the point that you meant or implied you trusted his pressure, but the statement "I trust Cheetory" just sounds empty, hollow, and meaningless.

And yeah, I was against the House wagon for that reason too, among other things (such as it being silly to complain about someone's lack of posting when there's a massive amount of things he can be doing in meatworld preventing him from doing so).

[lalaladucks]

P-EDIT: What makes House obvious-scum, @

lalaladucks

?

Inherent dastardly scumminess (in the nicest way possible!)

[Titus]

Dollars to Donuts the way people are not really engaging Ozgin means he's scum.

[SilverWolf]

I agree with you Ozgin about the House wagon. I didn't like it. It seemed too easy. How can you pressure someone who isn't even here playing? The he's posting elsewhere is crap if he only posted one post. I also kind of agree with you that Titus seems off. I'm going to have to investigate there some. It's just gut for now but she doesn't usually pull the I don't want to play stuff. I agree with her about your Citizen talk. That should really stop.

[SilverWolf]

Dollars to Donuts the way people are not really engaging Ozgin means he's scum.

Huh? Yes we are. Wat? I seriously feel like he's either town hopped up and excited to play or super try hard scum but as scum in the last game he was pretty mellow. I had a neighborhood with him and he wasn't this hyper. I really don't know what to make of him quite yet.

[Titus]

I agree with you Ozgin about the House wagon. I didn't like it. It seemed too easy. How can you pressure someone who isn't even here playing? The he's posting elsewhere is crap if he only posted one post. I also kind of agree with you that Titus seems off. I'm going to have to investigate there some. It's just gut for now but she doesn't usually pull the I don't want to play stuff. I agree with her about your Citizen talk. That should really stop.

You haven't seen some of the things I have seen. Sometimes they do get under my skin. My husband and I are talking about having kids. Hearing that stuff about killing your kids just absolutely riled me and yes, those types of things make mafia unenjoyable generally. There is a line. I call people out when they cross it. I'm shocked that you think you're the only one who can be bothered by things. Normally, I would take that as a scum indicator but knowing you well enough your game seems to be very Wolf focused as either alignment. (Mine tends to be that way too.)

[Titus]

Dollars to Donuts the way people are not really engaging Ozgin means he's scum.

Huh? Yes we are. Wat? I seriously feel like he's either town hopped up and excited to play or super try hard scum but as scum in the last game he was pretty mellow. I had a neighborhood with him and he wasn't this hyper. I really don't know what to make of him quite yet.

No. You're not engaging him. You're engaging me and talking about Ozgin.

[SilverWolf]

I agree with you Ozgin about the House wagon. I didn't like it. It seemed too easy. How can you pressure someone who isn't even here playing? The he's posting elsewhere is crap if he only posted one post. I also kind of agree with you that Titus seems off. I'm going to have to investigate there some. It's just gut for now but she doesn't usually pull the I don't want to play stuff. I agree with her about your Citizen talk. That should really stop.

You haven't seen some of the things I have seen. Sometimes they do get under my skin. My husband and I are talking about having kids. Hearing that stuff about killing your kids just absolutely riled me and yes, those types of things make mafia unenjoyable generally. There is a line. I call people out when they cross it. I'm shocked that you think you're the only one who can be bothered by things. Normally, I would take that as a scum indicator but knowing you well enough your game seems to be very Wolf focused as either alignment. (Mine tends to be that way too.)

[non-aligment personal, uncomfortable stuff start] I'm sorry Titus. I have a child and have lost several. It was offensive to me but I should of thought of what you and others might be going through as well. I do tend to be self-centered when I play. I'm also having trouble focusing and keeping up with the pace of this game. I wish you luck in your journey to motherhood. [non-alignment personal, uncomfortable stuff end]

Having said the above, I don't think Oz was trying to upset us mothers or potential mothers.

[SilverWolf]

Dollars to Donuts the way people are not really engaging Ozgin means he's scum.

Huh? Yes we are. Wat? I seriously feel like he's either town hopped up and excited to play or super try hard scum but as scum in the last game he was pretty mellow. I had a neighborhood with him and he wasn't this hyper. I really don't know what to make of him quite yet.

No. You're not engaging him. You're engaging me and talking about Ozgin.

What about 202 or 211? Like I said, I'm having trouble keeping up with him and the game to be quite honest. I'm working on it.

Re-reading, etc.

[Varsoon]

We can relax and give everyone a chance to post and catch up. No one wants to come back to 10 new pages in a game with 21 players.
Metered pace and focused direction is the most important thing in these large games, imo.