New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[Ozgin]

"I trust Cheetory" = lol.

VOTE: Varsoon Let's make waves, shall we?

I'm a little wary that you didn't probe to try and find out Varsoon's intentions at all with a question or something to accompany this vote. I like the seriousness of this vote so early, but I dislike that it looks like you're not actually trying to sort what Varsoon is doing here. I'm leaning that this is lazy over scummy, but I'd like you to talk at me a little bit about what was going through your head here.

The followup on this where you elaborate with Titus is okay, but the focus seems a lot more oriented towards explaining yourself and seems almost self-centered rather than actually interested in progressing the gamestate or sorting Varsoon.

So I made that vote and explained the vote in response to Titus (as you noted). I didn't dig into Varsoon because I'd rather have seen his reaction before asking questions. If he would have quoted me and said, "Oh, I meant that I trust Cheetory's plan to pressure scum." No, he didn't mention anything to the degree until he put his vote on me, and even then he said it was pretty much implied, and that it was my fault for not picking up on it.

I probably could have/would have/should have prodded him for answers, but I'd prefer a reaction first so I know what kind of person I'm dealing with.

But I have trust issues because I have a broken home life and a bad history with women, so I'm probably just being paranoid.

The hedging here is a littttttle scummy.

Ignoring citizen-claim-stuff for now.

The unvote on Varsoon just because he thinks the Housewagon is sketchy is weird. I feel like him finding the Housewagon sketchy shouldn't invalidate his vote so I don't understand why the unvote is at all necessary.

Because Varsoon hadn't reacted or replied at all, and I thought it'd be more worth-while to use my vote on someone that I had a better case on. I wanted to get out of the RVS, and my lone vote on the non-responsive looked like just that.

Also, could you explain the hedging thing to me? That whole post about trust issues and blah blah blah was pretty much a joke, hence my use of .

what makes me inclined to against Kitz more than lala is the fact that it was literally 3 minutes after Sky, and that irks me.

Why is this scummy?

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

@lala - Instead of apathetically shrugging off votes against you, why not do me a favor - Tell me why you think House is probably scum.

I guess I like that he's at least asking lala a question, even if said question seems pretty... empty. Heh. I guess it does eventually go somewhere so maybe I'm just feeling nitpicky atm.

Well that's the only thing I can ask lala about at that point - The vote post had a vote, some dribble about avatars, and him claiming House is probscum with only one post.

I figured it'd be hypocritical of me to vote someone near RVS with a pseudo-shitty read right before I made reads and called other peoples' votes pseudo-shitty, you know?

Explain this more clearly please.

So my vote was placed in (and seemed like a part of) the RVS phase, and my point about "Trusting Cheetory" was not that great, given that it was RVS. As I was going through and calling out people on their "reads" (Like Lala's shitty point on House), I felt like my point on Varsoon wasn't that great, especially given that my read on Lala was much stronger.

Lala, I concede that he did post in a Mini-Game, but it's still possible that he only had time to make one post and, rather than delve into a fiery large normal, decided to just plonk it down on a mini game?

@Titus: This type of language? What the hell, are you scared of rhetoric? Are you afraid of me putting holes in lala's logic by demonstrating the same logic on an extreme?

I think it's a little scummy that you seem to care more about poking holes in lala's logic than it seems you do about actually sorting her. Why is scumlala more likely to vote House for those reasons than townlala?

Well lala's response to my question was pretty much, "Oh because I'm scared of him, he might be bad later on, who knows?" Furthermore, I know that House is a scary player,

both in town and scum.

He could be a scum just as scared of townHouse (hehe, townhouse) or opposing-team scumHouse.

@Cheetory, How isn't it? I think you're just riding the popular opinion that it's unpleasant, not that it doesn't do what it's designed to.

Why were you so quick to sling shit at me for making a joke comment on an analogy?

Because I was admittedly pissed off about people getting angry at my analogy, and I felt that it wasn't that inaccurate of one to boot. It was probably a little lash-out, but I still don't think my analogy (aside from it's apparently offensive nature) was that bad.

Meh, I'm feeling scumhunty tonight. I'm trying to change up my town game, because apparently when I was scum in 180 and posted long and thought-out reads I was read as town, so I figure that I might as well do the same thing when I'm actually town. My win-rate as town is literally 0%, and my win-rate for scum is literally 100%. I'd like to change that.

This feels townish.

Okay.

even if it's true I couldn't have known that because you never stated that.

This is why it's problematic that you postured on a vote centered around this instead of asking him about it. Because now it looks a lot like you're shifting the blame onto him for not answering a question that you never asked him about it.

But my issue with him claiming he was trusting your methods as opposed to your vote was that he didn't articulate it, and then

he used it as a defense against my vote that was already retracted.

@Cheetory - A ProlapsedBrain vote? Whaaa?

Sh. I'm doing a thing don't butt in.

It was just an observation, I don't know your "thing," but it made me curious, okay? I had to ask, at least.

[Ozgin]

Are you illiterate?

Do not do this Ozgin.

Sorry, let me rephrase.

@Titus - Are you even reading my posts? I don't think you are.

[Cheetory6]

Because Varsoon hadn't reacted or replied at all, and I thought it'd be more worth-while to use my vote on someone that I had a better case on. I wanted to get out of the RVS, and my lone vote on the non-responsive looked like just that.

Why wouldn't his lack of response make your vote stronger/give you reason to want to push him more? Wouldn't dodginess come across as scummy to you?

Also, could you explain the hedging thing to me?

It's hedgey because you make points about people being scummy in your eyes and then walk it back with a joke about how you're probably just being paranoid. It basically brings you around full circle and makes it so you've said not much of consequence which could come across as coasty or showy.

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

Why would they do that though?

Well lala's response to my question was pretty much, "Oh because I'm scared of him, he might be bad later on, who knows?" Furthermore, I know that House is a scary player, both in town and scum. He could be a scum just as scared of townHouse (hehe, townhouse) or opposing-team scumHouse.

Do you think scared scum votes for someone they're scared of?

But my issue with him claiming he was trusting your methods as opposed to your vote was that he didn't articulate it, and then he used it as a defense against my vote that was already retracted.

Was I entirely open about why I made my vote from the get-go? If not, why am I not under the same level of scrutiny as Varsoon by you?

[Varsoon]

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Cheetory:

What was the deal with your Aeronaut stuff earlier in the game?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

[Varsoon]

[Cheetory6]

What was the deal with your Aeronaut stuff earlier in the game?

Same thing I was doing with sky, just with less of an actual reason.

[Titus]

@Ozgin, I read your buckshot. I don't believe it. Saying the same thing in the same manner as you did before is not going to persuade me. When you double down with insults, it basically causes me to tune you out. The illiterate comment was out of bounds. The are you reading question is just more of the same discrediting.

[dragonspawn]

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there. Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

@Cheetory:

What was the deal with your Aeronaut stuff earlier in the game?

@Bookitty

: You've grown to become a player who I put a lot of stock in. You've got very strong direction as town, and in this game, even if you're scum, you'd need to eliminate the SK and the other team. I want to know your reads and thoughts on the game. I'd like to see you be more vocal. I want your voice to be in this game. In all the 21 player games I've seen, Town only wins when there are dominant town voices. I want to hedge my bets on you, Boo. Get in here!

@RadiantCowbells

: Please don't phone this game in. You're an easy lynch and I'd like you to be more outspoken and here. I don't want to see you either skim by or get lynched based on path of least resistance.

I liked this post. Feels townish to me. I like you calling out the lurkers.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I want to make a statement on behalf of myself and a few other people.

This game started last night. LAST NIGHT.

Some of us have full-time jobs at which we must at least pretend to work or otherwise look busy for extended periods during the day. This process can be exhausting. Sometimes we just come home and pretend to sleep for about 12 hours to prepare for our busy day of looking busy the next day.

Calling people lurkers because they don't post overnight or during part of the work day is NOT COOL. If you produce 13 pages of content over the course of one evening and a part of the next day, I'm darn sure going to read it, but it's going to take me some time because I am at work and I do not have unlimited free time to catch up to that degree.

So PLEASE cut it out.

I don't see the case on House, primarily because of what I just said. I have no idea what his schedule is like and it hasn't even been a day since the game opened.

I think Cheetory is town. Titus too, though I would not likely lynch her today even if I wasn't already town reading her because of general respect I have for a particular scumhunting technique she uses.

Leaning town on SilverWolf at the moment.

With two scum teams in play and a suspected SK, I could easily see Ozgin as scum trying to ensure that everyone knows he's a CITIZEN and not a Scummity-Scum-SCUM. It's odd. I don't get it.

Varsoon reaching out to me feels town, but he may know me well enough to know that, omg WIFOM! No, I do think he's town for the moment, but I want to reiterate: I SLEEP AT NIGHT. I WORK DURING THE DAY. Please don't start whining about my participation level before a full day has passed or I'll get VERY GROUCHY.

[Ozgin]

Because Varsoon hadn't reacted or replied at all, and I thought it'd be more worth-while to use my vote on someone that I had a better case on. I wanted to get out of the RVS, and my lone vote on the non-responsive looked like just that.

Why wouldn't his lack of response make your vote stronger/give you reason to want to push him more? Wouldn't dodginess come across as scummy to you?

No, because someone's lack of posting (see House, for example) isn't necessarily scummy. Had he continued posting and ignored me, I'd be more inclined to think he's scum.

Also, could you explain the hedging thing to me?

It's hedgey because you make points about people being scummy in your eyes and then walk it back with a joke about how you're probably just being paranoid. It basically brings you around full circle and makes it so you've said not much of consequence which could come across as coasty or showy.

Fair enough, I guess the joke wasn't really that great. I was being too playful, maybe, but that was before things got as serious as they did.

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

Why would they do that though?

It'd be easy? Back House into a corner before he gets around to respond, play on everyone being scared to combat House.

Well lala's response to my question was pretty much, "Oh because I'm scared of him, he might be bad later on, who knows?" Furthermore, I know that House is a scary player, both in town and scum. He could be a scum just as scared of townHouse (hehe, townhouse) or opposing-team scumHouse.

Do you think scared scum votes for someone they're scared of?

I definitely think scared scum try to do away with people they are scared of, one way or another. Whether or not it be by voting, night killing, or whatever. Think about how terrified we were as scum when TSO was making waves. Skilled players should be relatively revered, in my opinion.

But my issue with him claiming he was trusting your methods as opposed to your vote was that he didn't articulate it, and then he used it as a defense against my vote that was already retracted.

Was I entirely open about why I made my vote from the get-go? If not, why am I not under the same level of scrutiny as Varsoon by you?

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

That said, I really like the most recent back and forth between Ozgin and Cheetory.
Ozgin's very abrasive and feels like he's wheeling back especially in post 300.

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.
Can you elaborate on how you think I'm wheeling back in post 300? I'm addressing specific posts Cheetory is asking me about.

@Ozgin

: So LaLa's got a 'shit push' (I'd prefer you actually detail why the push is bad, which I've inferred to be due to the really bogus reasoning that if House isn't 'confirmed town' this early then he must be scum--I think that's absurd reasoning and the push on House is an attempt to drum up pressure, which is what I disagreed with before, since so much of the wagon was rooted in that bogus reasoning and House didn't seem to feel that pressure at all) and has reacted poorly to people's votes and questioning? That's a solid enough reason for voting there.

So if you agree with me, what's necessarily stopping you from voting lala?

Do you have other reads? Do you think that Scumteams would really pile on someone so much this early?

I do have other reads. I'll post more about my other reads as the day goes on, we've only been playing for less than one meatworld day. I want to gather more information, especially on the people who haven't posted as much and the people who are kinda pulling me two different ways.

As for scumteams piling on someone this early - Hell yeah, why not? If I were a scumteam, I'd be advocating any and every moving wagon, for a variety of reasons. Multiball makes me think that Scumteam X (1 or 2) would pile on a wagon if one of their own weren't the one on the wagon, because that's less competition and potentially less town. Plus it's early, why not ride these flaring emotions/early game fights out? Let them carry on as they would.

For instance, let's just say for arguments sake that lala is on scumteam 1 and I'm town (there, I said terminology you all like, happy?) and House is on scumteam 2. If we were the 3 primary wagons, then scumteam 2 would be happy to pile on either of my or lala's wagons, scumteam 1 would be happy to pile on my or House's wagon, and the town would pile on the wagon they think is the scummiest, which could be any of the three.

Then, since it's early, they can just make up excuses as to why they're on it, ranging from pressure to an actual read.

[Ozgin]

EBWOP so I was thumbing back a little and I re-read the first part of your post where you say:

@Varsoon

I think LaLa is low hanging fruit. There's a general evasion happening where LaLa isn't really addressing worthwhile points being made against their slot.
Does that make it scum? Eh.
Feels more like path of least resistance.
I'd actually be okay with a lynch there since LaLa isn't providing much for the game.

And I didn't register that before I asked you why you aren't voting Lala. The question is still kinda valid, but let me also ask: Is dodging substantial points against yourself not anti-town? That is, do you really think it's not so much that lala is scummy as it is "less resistant" to lynch them?

[T S O]

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

I really like this as a point.

[Ozgin]

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

You wanna talk rhetoric, I think it's awkward that you're referring to yourself as a citizen rather than town.
In most games, you're gonna be town. In this game specifically, you'd be a citizen if you were town-aligned.
So this speaks towards specific attention payed towards a claimed alignment flavor.
Which, to me, feels stilted, like you double-checked the OP to make sure you were calling yourself the right thing.

I really like this as a point.

I really like that we've argued this to the ends of hell and back, and it's a mute point and it's over.

[Egg]

everyone is scumhunting.

This assumes everyone is playing optimally. I have yet to see a game where everyone plays optimally. Or at least I can't remember one. If you are scum, however, I fully expect that you'll be scumhunting genuinely which is why your blatant misrep of Ozgin is throwing me off guard...

Ozgin, that's fair on the House thing. I just wanted to make sure you realized that in this setup, even a scummy wagon can be on scum.

Varsoon feels like he's buddying Bookitty.

Bookitty, can you explain your town reads on Cheet and Titus?

[Kitz]

Bleh. I dislike that she's agreeing that RVS is dumb while sitting on a 100% RVS vote on someone who hasn't even posted a single time at the time of this post. I think I find it more annoying from a playstyle kind of manner and am not really feeling anything from it in terms of alignment.

I don't really consider it RVS.

@Kitz, talk to me about why you like your Housevote. Why is it better than an Ozginvote or a ProlapsedBrainvote?

Le reasons. Altho, serious.

@Kit, did you ever answer how you thought this setup could be a mindful yet not understand 14:3:3:1?

Nope. I didn't answer. I'm a bit arrogant and didn't read multi-ball. Got a bit confused and just wanted to be sure, one of the reasons being that there's 1 more than 20 making it 21, another being thinking it could be mason. Feel free to call me stupid.

In multiball with daytalk, I feel like Sky could have posted in a scum QT something like, "Hey lets go after House" and Kitz (and/or lala) could have been like, "K" and then just hopped on for no reason.

This logic. Oooh man. Lala is totally my scum mate and we're sooo fierce.
FYI, "for no reason" is just horrible. Shame on you~

[Bookitty]

Sure.

Cheetory is actively engaging with people and pushing suspicions in a way that feels organic. While this could be a product of scum-vs-scum in this game, it doesn't feel like that to me.

Titus is addressing the game in ways I've seen her do as town. This doesn't prove anything for anyone else (though it gives me warm fuzzies toward her) but as I said I wouldn't lynch her anyway because she's way more effective with a flip or two to analyse. I am more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt based on her play and accuracy in other games I've played with her.

[Ozgin]

Well Kitz, your reason was so bad it might as well have been "for no reason." Lala's was just worse, is all.

[Aneninen]

Mobilepost. I haven't forgotten about this game, I simply haven't had time yet. And I haven't expected so many posts. Can someone summarize the most important topics for me? Thanxs in advance!

[Cheetory6]

I don't really consider it RVS.

Your Boon vote wasn't RVS?

I definitely think scared scum try to do away with people they are scared of, one way or another. Whether or not it be by voting, night killing, or whatever. Think about how terrified we were as scum when TSO was making waves. Skilled players should be relatively revered, in my opinion.

Here's my issue. You're telling me that you think lala and Kitz were hoping with their third and fourth votes on a wagon in a day cycle where hammer takes 11 people on the first day of the cycle that the momentum they would throw on there was going to absolutely 100% bring House crashing down into his early grave?
That's the intention you get out that?
Because I don't get that at all. And I'm not even saying that they're town because of it. And and I find it hard to believe it's what you think that they were doing.
I think you had more merit with your Varsoon vote than you do here [even if I disagreed with the premise of it] which again, begs the question of why you felt the need to unvote Varsoon and switch to someone else for reasons that feel more or less kind of forced.

[Cheetory6]

absolutely 100%

I'm being lame here, but you get my point. You're a fan of exaggeration as we've established

[Kitz]

Your Boon vote wasn't RVS?

I misread, thought it was about House and didn't even read my own quote there.
Yepp, Boon is RVS.

[Ozgin]

@Cheetory - I think that they are scared of house, and bringing a wagon to 5 votes (Nearly half) is one way to try to squeeze something out of him.

Besides, there are enough people here who got in late and won't read the first 10 pages, will take a look at the wagons, and make a face-value call. Every lynch has to start somewhere, so why wouldn't they just throw themselves at him now and hope for something to happen?

[Cheetory6]

If they're scared of him, what's the one thing that they can do to get his full undivided attention when he starts paying attention to the game?
[hint: they're doing it]

[Ozgin]

Uh, letting other people fight about their nonsense, and sitting back and cruising by?

[SilverWolf]

Why in the hell would anyone be afraid of House? Picking on someone not here playing and actively participating is a very easy thing for scum to do to appear busy. It's much harder for them to go after the power players who are posting and playing. Scum should be a lot more afraid of someone like Titus or Cheetory than House right now.