Micro 474: Over the Garden Wall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Metal Sonic]

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[Doduo]

you are however throwing in everything and the kitchen sink because you're mad scum-you got caught day one

[Metal Sonic]

you are however throwing in bullshit because scum-me never gets caught day one

[Doduo]

First time fo everything, then

It could explain why you've been so butthurt, throwing shit at us to see what sticks

:>

[Metal Sonic]

First time a policy lynch actually goes through then

[Metal Sonic]

It could explain why one of your heads it's rotating endlessly like a bunch of sticks

[Doduo]

I'll be here tomorrow, if MS isn't hammered by then I'll be looking off the wagon for his scumbud tomorrow.

[Metal Sonic]

:scumposting:^

[Lia]

I'm feeling a bit better about MS now compared to Doduo.

@ Doduo:

Can you tell me which posts are by Marquis please?

Vote: Doduo

[Doduo]

Please, do share with the class what you find townie about MS's latest posts.

[Metal Sonic]

literally everything probably

[Nachomamma8]

P.S. I can see the Sonic push, but I don't want him at L-1 yet.

why not? we have two days until deadline. nothing revolutionary is going to happen.

PPS. I don't know who if anyone would have recruited Gaiden. That doesn't stop him from being the initial scum that recruited someone, and I don't think he Towntelled just by saying he wouldn't get recruited.

probably no one would have recruited gaiden.

Explain why pie is playing "so good" when, if you are town, the major thing he's been doing all game is absolute garbage

Whether or not Pie is correct and MS is scum, I think Pie's posts have been pretty solid. Calling his posts garbage seems like an early attempt to try to discredit Pie.

it's a very strange approach to take when someone is pushing you as scum above doing anything else to just sit back and go "wow his posts as so great" instead of actually addressing the pushes he's making and trying to work with him.

Also, I'm leaning towards Nacho being more likely scum than MS being scum right now.

why is that?

[Alchemist21]

P.S. I can see the Sonic push, but I don't want him at L-1 yet.

why not? we have two days until deadline. nothing revolutionary is going to happen.

PPS. I don't know who if anyone would have recruited Gaiden. That doesn't stop him from being the initial scum that recruited someone, and I don't think he Towntelled just by saying he wouldn't get recruited.

probably no one would have recruited gaiden.

Explain why pie is playing "so good" when, if you are town, the major thing he's been doing all game is absolute garbage

Whether or not Pie is correct and MS is scum, I think Pie's posts have been pretty solid. Calling his posts garbage seems like an early attempt to try to discredit Pie.

it's a very strange approach to take when someone is pushing you as scum above doing anything else to just sit back and go "wow his posts as so great" instead of actually addressing the pushes he's making and trying to work with him.

Also, I'm leaning towards Nacho being more likely scum than MS being scum right now.

why is that?

It may be strange, but I don't think it's necessarily scum indicative. The case I can see for scum MS is the "he posts shit for the sake of posting shit" case rather than how he's reacting to Pie's posts. If there's any indication he's scum from the way he's reacting to pie's posts, it's that it's easy to call Town Town and he knows this, and he's being pretty liberal with handing out the confTown statuses.

I think you could be scum because it looks like you're trying to discredit the player you said you didn't want to be Town in this game. You've stated that you feel Pie would be a threat to your scum game to the point that you would recruit him just so he wouldn't be Town. I can see you as scum wanting to try to shut him down early as scum if you did not or could not recruit him.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Nacho

I still have a gut scumlean on Gaiden, but the more I think about it the more confident I am in Nacho being scum.

[Metal Sonic]

Nacho claimed his role already, and it doesnt look like a scum role though...


BUT! Recruited players have a role that is independent of their alignment! So scum can have a townie role! Hmm!

[Alchemist21]

Nacho claimed his role already, and it doesnt look like a scum role though...


BUT! Recruited players have a role that is independent of their alignment! So scum can have a townie role! Hmm!

From what I understood of the rules, ALL roles were assigned separate from alignment. Plus, Kagami designs his games so that role =/= alignment anyway to prevent attempts of outguessing the mod.

We learned that the hard way in Micro 415 when farside had a role that A) allowed her alignement to be confirmed in a neighborhood by posting a specific phrase in the PT and B) prevented her from being neighborized. Since there was another role that could take one of the abilities, it was theoretically possible for her to get neighborized anyway, and a lot of us at one point or another assumed scum wouldn't have an ability to confirm their alignment in a PT, but she was scum anyway because roles were assigned seperate from alignment.

Seriously, go to the wiki and look up the STFU guidelines. They're Kagami's own methods for designing games to prevent outguessing the mod.

tl;dr Nobody is confTown just because they have a role that would be positive utility for Town and nobody is confscum for having a role that would be negative utility for Town.

[Alchemist21]

MS, what's your read on Nacho? You're coming off very wishy-washy towards him.

[Metal Sonic]

MS, what's your read on Nacho? You're coming off very wishy-washy towards him.

You are correct.

I think he is town though. Not as strong as you or gaiden or honey bee now.

[Honey bee]

can nacho selfhammer

[Metal Sonic]

that is a very cool idea

[Metal Sonic]

the problem is that

if he is town, he will say yes

if he is scum, he will say no

which is not helpful for us

[pieguyn]

nothing that's happening has been changing my reads. I'm pretty sure this is Nacho's town game. there are a bunch of things I look for in Nacho's town game that he can't (or at the very least, hasn't yet) faked as scum and he's done a pretty good job of hitting them so far here. I can attempt to explain this in detail if necessary, but I'd rather not for meta reasons and I find it difficult to articulate in logical terms some of what is making me read him as town.

I'm actually somewhat paranoid about Alch's recent posts, but my feelings there aren't particularly strong and, on reread, I think some of his posts elsewhere look kinda town (namely Gaiden push).

I want to see more content from Lia and AD. while I haven't minded either of what they've posted (and in AD's case have a slight town read on the slot), both of them have done essentially nothing.

[Metal Sonic]

am I being townread now

[Metal Sonic]

what do you think of doduo?

[pieguyn]

Specifically, 196 and 197

this response is interesting.

Spoiler:

I did that. I didn't glean a lot from it, because it's pretty obviously one of the first games he played here. It's pretty jam-packed with newbie questions or questions intended to look newbie, which I agree is not the same situation as in this game.

Soren claims he has over 40 games completed. I don't think that's what he was going for there; I think he was just asking as much stuff as he could to look busy and not realizing nothing he was asking had any town motivation.

@Endless Possibilities: Do you think that Soren is typically pretty wishy-washy on his own opinions or generally easily led? Do you have experience of him as town in a completed game? I read this:

Mini 1650: Greatest Idea Mafia

and Soren seemed a lot more forceful in that as town. His questions were much more pointed toward alignment and less busy-seeming. I don't see much other meta, but if you have it, I'll read it.

mm, I looked through this and the first thing I noticed is that in that game, he wasn't following closely at the start of the game (he says this in 268). it's usually easier to step back and take a fully objective view of the game when you already have a body of work of content to go off of, as opposed to seeing everything unfold firsthand.

also in that game, his opening (and his play in general) hardly consisted of any questions, as opposed to him primarily commenting on stuff. it's possible he just took a different approach here, or is having an off game

there's also some other things that I think might be different but haven't looked into it yet: for example, it's possible a lot of people were acting obviously scummy/town in that game, compared to this game which is rather slow (with at least 3 people having practically no content at all). I suppose what I'm saying here is that I don't find a lack of strong scum reads scummy, given my 2nd strongest scum read is fucking Anti just for not doing anything at all besides one somewhat-off-looking push.

besides that, I don't have any experience with town Soren, but I think the differences from his ISO here to the ISO in his scum game are a lot greater than the differences from his ISOs here/this game. I usually don't agree with calling someone scum because of minor differences to their town game, in no small part because I used to (and still am, to some extent) be known for being extremely obvious town as town and I would have that pushed on me a lot whenever I did so much as one thing that was different from any of my town games. this is moreso my method of reading people so make of it what you will.

I didn't like this because Antihero hasn't actually posted much in this game. No one has explained their vote on him very well. His vote is on LucianRoy, whom Soren was voting earlier for "meta" reasons that apparently both of them now agree were not very strong. LucianRoy is clearly not immune to OMGUS since he is scumreading two people currently on his wagon and one who was; it seems a little out of place for him to resolutely resist the same OMGUS urge where Soren is concerned.

I'm still not particularly seeing why this is scummy, explicitly because Anti hasn't posted much. it makes sense to poke at a lurker in order to get them to do shit. there were better questions he could have asked, but I could easily enough see it coming from town.

LR had also declared a town read on me after I started pushing on him (although I never voted him) so I'm not sure what to make of the second point. either way, I don't really think it makes sense as a scum strategy to OMGUS every town player who pressures you, so I don't think it makes sense him not OMGUS'ing Soren would be indicative of Soren scum, either.

This was interesting because I was voting LucianRoy at the time. It's like Soren is only interested in asking questions among the people who were voting LucianRoy. Soren also says he just wanted to see what I would say -- again, not owning the suspicion that is pretty clear in the question imo.

It's not just the questions for me, though I watch for that more since Farside pointed out it is one of her scumhunting tools. (Yes, I shamelessly borrow from other players.) Soren hasn't had any strong views -- in fact, he sheeped me onto LucianRoy and then immediately backed off his own vote without unvoting.

IMO a lack of strong stances isn't particularly scummy. it's either indicative of scum who don't want to fake reads, or town who legitimately don't have any reads and don't see it fit to pretend like they have reads that they really don't. what I find scummy is when people act like they have strong stances, but then don't actually do anything to follow through with them (ex. Aris WK'ing a lot of people who are under pressure but not doing anything to explain why).

in Soren's case, I think it's plausible enough he just doesn't have any strong reads yet. he's either scum who made a push and then didn't feel like continuing with it, or he's town telling the truth about not having a strong read on you and backed off for exactly the reason he said - that he asked the question to see what you would say as opposed to feeling strongly you were scum. either way, I don't think it's inconsistent.

one thing that I noticed when I played with him as scum was that there were basically no stances *at all*, which is kind of similar. I suppose it's not too unreasonable he's stepped up his game as scum to some extent and is more capable of taking stances but is not yet comfortable faking the strong pushes he made in his town game. however, I still think there's more stuff that points to him being town.

^ this was a post FROM MY LATEST TOWN GAME WITH MS. he was in THIS HYDRA with me for this game.

his angle here is that he's paranoid of me bc I'm supposedly making long/effortful posts early in the game. this is blatantly disingenuous. while long posts are not a tell either way for me, he has directly seen that it's something I do as town and that I'm more than capable of walling early game if I want to elaborate on or deconstruct posts in depth.

so him thinking I might be scum for it doesn't make any sense. I think he's going for a fake paranoia angle here, as in he pretends to be paranoid of someone bc ppl will hopefully see it and think something along the lines of "look at that paranoia, so town".

I'm aware this is supposedly just paranoia, but regardless, it doesn't make sense from a town POV. he knows it's not a scum tell yet supposedly is pushing it as one anyway.

If there's any indication he's scum from the way he's reacting to pie's posts, it's that it's easy to call Town Town and he knows this, and he's being pretty liberal with handing out the confTown statuses.

except this isn't what he's doing. what he's doing is calling me town, but then going back and saying he's paranoid of me for supposedly making long posts. that isn't committing to a town read on me.

rather than an actual town reaction - such as deconstructing my posts and trying to show me why he's not scum (which in this case is something I think he should be particularly likely to do here bc we have a pretty long history with each other), or committing to a firm read on me either way - we're seeing him do the "fake paranoia and start second guessing myself" routine.