New York 185: Freshwater Frenzy!

[dragonspawn]

Wolf, I outted your hood but you were both scum. I don't feel at all bad about that. Besides it was house that crumbed it.

there is no reason to assume wake put or didn't put scum in the hoods. They could be clean or not. Probably not. But we shouldn't assume anything.

leaning town on sky. She usually lurks more.

why should we vote pb over rc or drixx or FA ot aero or tso or someone else who hasn't been contributing much? I'm not saying I'm scum reading anyone there other than rc . I'm just not seeing the reasoning for focusing on pb.

[Egg]

Varsoon, how do you figure dragonspawn hasn't taken a convicted approach to this game? He seems to be to me. Also, now that I've seen in the neighborhood that the claim is out from him and Boon, I can say this. Why were you trying so hard to make them claim. It was obvious it would be something mason-like. Was it that important for it to be said? Why keep pushing when it became obvious? Why also keep pushing him as scum? Even if he is, he's not a Day 1 lynch. One of the three non-town factions pretty much has to kill them at some point.

Dragonspawn, I know the hood hasn't been insanely active, but saying it's hardly been used seems like an exaggaration as well. You and I have been talking in there. Bookitty was talking in there. House, while he is making a point about not wanting to say much, has still been posting there. Even Kitz has posted some. It's not like we are still on the first page or anything.

Radiant, I don't think you answered my question. Why are you playing?

Drinking game. Anytime someone does something stupid. Drink.

My liver could never handle this.

House, where has Bookitty AtE'd?

Anen, sorry but that style of response was hard to follow. What were you looking for hints on? Titus? I don't think I've seen her scum game before...Also, I agree with your whole paragraph about mafia being an evolving game. But you still won't ever see me lurk strategically. My activity depends 100% on real life and right now I happen to have 24 consecutive days off work so poker and family are the only reasons for me not to post. That's why I'm mostly keeping up with this game. My town PM has nothing to do with it. I'm mostly trying to determine whether your read on me is a genuine one and I think it is. Unfortunately, you could still be scum with a legitimate read with multiple teams so, *shrug*.

Skybird, you said you have Boon as town. Do you have dragonspawn as town as well or is your Boon read a weak one?

Cheet, why don't I get a post about my ISO like the rest of your colored reads. (Or at least some of them but still) </3

[Cheetory6]

I don't know what PB's towngame is like, but his scumgame is lurky and rude.
Does that sound familiar to you at all?
{hint: it's how he's playing this game}

P-Edit: I'd rather ISOdive people who I don't have a read on yet.

[Egg]

Ah

[Aneninen]

Isn't this kind of scumhunting supposed to be frowned upon by site meta?

I don't think so. After all we're not quoting anything. If paraphrasing a Role PM is allowed, describing the color of it is allowed too. After all, I might have a role PM like

You're a Pigeon

and I can lie anything about it. (Well, lol it actually happened before... my role was Pigeon and I claimed VT.)

@Wake?

I don't think it's the smoking gun you are making it out to be and I don't like scumhunting that way tbh. As far as other points on her, her posting seems pretty awkward and all over the place and very, very nervous. Her reads are off too. But I'd like to see more from her and at least she's giving reads. What has Prolapsed done this game? Did you look at his ISO?

Still, there is no mid-light green text in my Role PM at all! Why do you think Lala said that?

However, there's something more about her and it has nothing to do with colors. At VC1.05 there was a 6-player wagon on Lala (Bookitty, dragonspawn, Silverwolf, Ozgin, Egg, Varsoon) and it got reduced to 0 by VC1.07. Varsoon went to the Ozgin wagon, Bookitty did the same later (the others were still on the Lala-wagon at VC1.06), Silverwolf jumped to the Dragon-wagon (Bookitty did so a bit later), Egg joined the Ozgin-wagon, Ozgin started (?) the Varsoon-wagon, DragonSpawn ended up voting for TSO next.
Someone posted before that the whole Lala-wagon turned into a Dragonspawn-wagon. This is not entirely true, as we can see.
It may be useful only later, but if Lala flips scum, someone must have derailed her wagon.

Also, as I said, I'd eagerly join the Prolapsed-wagon. I checked his ISO before and it looks terrible indeed. (I posted about this topic in an earlier post or two, I think.)

[Wake1]

Quoting PM equals death.

Paraphrasing it is fine.

[Aneninen]

Quoting PM equals death.
Paraphrasing it is fine.

So, is it true for colors as well?
(By the way you needn't check all the posts; we haven't quoted anything.)

[Egg]

The whole point in sample PMs is supposed to be to show you what a town PM looks like so scum can't be caught that way. Still, Anen not having green feels weird. But at the same time, if he was scum, I assume he'd lie and say it's the same as the sample PM. Not quite sure what to think. I mean, mine looks like the sample as far as the green but maybe Wake forgot to color Anen's. I'm not gonna consider it telling because I can't see Anen slipping up on that, especially when he's the one who brought it up and there's a sample PM.

[Bookitty]

Okay, the brouhaha begins with this:

Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.


Here's a link to Taly (since I'm doing this, I'm going to do it comprehensively):

Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?

It LOOKS like it's an accusation, but it's actually not. He's accusing Taly of scumhunting too much.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

Here we reach critical mass on the citizen thing. I said in the neighbourhood that I thought it was as if Ozgin wanted to fake a townslip. I don't see a reason to stick to this wording over and over unless you've 1) studied your role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a VT to do, or 2) you've studied the sample role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a townie to do.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

This is an attempt to discredit and dismiss what seem like pretty rational suspicions, imo at least.

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

This is terrible. It's like he read the sample role PM and then didn't understand it. It doesn't give me faith that he's town in ANY WAY.

Now to what Titus actually asked me for:

Post 309 is practically an explanation in itself.

Varsoon's reasons are bad:

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

Cheetory's reasons are good:

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.

Titus's reasons are bad:

The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow, unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?

TSO's reasons are good:

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

Egg joins the fray:

@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.

Now things start switching up:

I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now.

I didn't quote all the insults, but there were plenty directed at someone he now thinks is just misguided.

I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense.

I'm scummy for following Titus's logic, while she is just misguided.

TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts).

What makes a man turn to a life of neutrality?

Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought.

Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!

And here's the icing on the cake:

My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.

This dichotomy isn't really a thing. Ozgin's play is the sum total of his play, and people who were suspicious of him for the reiterated Citizen thing (which really does look like a "hey, look at me, I'm obviously town, see my townslip, dammit, look at it!) can continue being suspicious for the over-the-top overreaction to their initial suspicions. The recent drastic change in tone and reads (they might be town after all, and there are good reasons for thinking I'm scummy, but some of those folks are scum on my wagon!) is not filling my heart with visions of puppies and kittens and baby birds, either.

I will say with some degree of confidence that there almost certainly is scum on Ozgin's wagon. That's the nature of multiball. I think he's placating some of the people on that wagon and his responses seem somewhat off given his fury and insult levels earlier on. It's like he realised he was not getting anywhere with the stick, so he now has some delicious candied carrots to share around. I'm sure they aren't poisoned. Well, pretty sure.

[Taly]

Hey guys, quickpost

My mind is on 1000 things atm, finals, general mood swings, some things being brought up that is draining my mental energy. sorry if I'm not going to be completely involved in this game for the next day or so, but I will be making an attempt to post daily.

I've been reading through the thread, I'm already beginning to warm up to Dragon being possible-town, I actually like some of his inquisition in the game so far. However, his interaction with things concerning his role and some people still seem a bit awkward...

I also looked into the game he linked and didn't see things that caused alarm according to his play so far.

Will need to look more in depth on Ozgin's latest posts, however - reading Boo's 1008, I'm starting to see Ozgin-scum, but I'm not completely convinced yet.

[Ozgin]

I want to hear ProlapsedBrain give more talk before I vote for him, considering he has 8 posts and none of them have any substance (which I can understand being viewed as leanscummy).

@Prolapsed

Colon

Brain - Do you have a readslist with actual substance anywhere? Are you even caught up in playing?

Also, I'm not gonna say much to the Aeronaut situation, I just took my finals a week ago and damn do I know how stressful that is (it was why I was so late confirming my pre-in for the game).

@Aero:

Please post when you can, let us know when you can start reading etc., your contributions would be much appreciated.

[Boonskiies]

@Aneninen - It isn't WIFOM. There's absolutely no chance of me dying toNight.

[Ozgin]

Spoiler: To Bookitty

Okay, the brouhaha begins with this:

Do you not realize how hard it's going to be for me not to be able to laugh and have fun at night with you in a QT? Being a citizen is lonely ;_;

Ozgin really likes this; he even quotes himself a couple of paragraphs later in the same post, something I've never seen anyone do before. It's worth noting that this was during what looks to be a reachout to former scumbuddies SilverWolf and Cheetory.

A reachout to my former scumbuddies, are you shitting me? SilverWolf has scumread me most of this game and I expressed my distrust for Cheetory early in this game.

Here's a link to Taly (since I'm doing this, I'm going to do it comprehensively):

Also, I feel like Taly is over-analyzing, kinda digging for evidence that might not be there. Does anyone know if this is normal per his meta?

It LOOKS like it's an accusation, but it's actually not. He's accusing Taly of scumhunting too much.

No, I'm accusing him of over-analyzing everything. I've been accused of it. It seemed to me like he was trying to make a point of every single post by every single player.

I'm going to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

This game is heating up, and I kinda like it. This is the most excited I've been ever to play a normal game as a citizen.

Here we reach critical mass on the citizen thing. I said in the neighbourhood that I thought it was as if Ozgin wanted to fake a townslip. I don't see a reason to stick to this wording over and over unless you've 1) studied your role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a VT to do, or 2) you've studied the sample role PM extensively, which I don't see a reason for a townie to do.

If you have to "study your role PM extensively" to remember it, you have Alzheimer's. Especially considering all these posts happened in the same day over the course of a few hours.

As far as Titus' vote on me, her feelings seem to be hurt. . Whatever, I don't have time for crying over rhetoric, I have to go to bed so I can scumhunt while I'm awake tomorrow.

This is an attempt to discredit and dismiss what seem like pretty rational suspicions, imo at least.

I pretty much disagree entirely here, I still believe a big part of Titus' push is her feelings being hurt. And I also don't believe the suspicions to be rational.

@SilverWolf - Does it matter that I'm "claiming" Citizen? Even if I were a town PR, I sure as hell wouldn't out as such. Citizen is my way of claiming that I'm town, if that's what you're asking.

This is terrible. It's like he read the sample role PM and then didn't understand it. It doesn't give me faith that he's town in ANY WAY.

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie

is.

I'm saying what

I

meant by what

I

said. It's

my

dialect.

Now to what Titus actually asked me for:

Post 309 is practically an explanation in itself.

I don't know the question this is answering, nor what this explains.

Varsoon's reasons are bad:

That's not what this post meant in context at all. I was saying

why

I voted for Varsoon rather than Cheetory.

I just picked Varsoon out because I didn't like his "reason." You weren't open about your reads, and you're highlighted in my excel sheet (not the same way Varsoon is, but still highlighted) so you're not free of scrutiny yourself, but your reactions and action as a player have pinged you as more town than Varsoon in my opinion.

Cheetory's reasons are good:

Again, not what I said. I said I liked his push. I like the

way

he went about coming after me.

I like Cheetory's push on me, as well. He's seemingly fair and level-headed about it.

Titus's reasons are bad:

They are/were. Still think so, too.

The one, half substantial point you have on me is my misuse of the term "Citizen," and if you can't get over that then I'm just going to fucking ignore you. I'm not arguing the citizen point anymore. Oh, and don't try to say I followed a pattern in a game you didn't follow, unless you want to keep being pathetic and misrepping me. Oh wait, that's your thing this game, isn't it dear?

TSO's reasons are good:

I didn't say that (again), I was speculating as to why he voted for me.

TSO is probably just trying to add pressure to me. I just don't get that there's a fucking wagon on me based on my "misuse" of terminology.

Egg joins the fray:

Egg had a point, I asked him what it was. He told me to look at "the last 5 posts of his ISO," and I did. This was me trying to figure out his case against me, which he said was different than Titus'. Then I addressed what I think was his case. What's your point?

@Egg - I gather your point on me is the whole, "It's weird I said citizen, I say it means I'm "town" but the first post says "Citizen," therefore I read the OP."
Well of course I read the OP, Wake asked us to do so at least twice.

Now things start switching up:

I think Titus is misguided on my wagon. I think she's pretty towny, she just has no idea what the hell she's talking about right now.

I didn't quote all the insults, but there were plenty directed at someone he now thinks is just misguided.

I made my insults out of spite and anger. However, I never fos'd Titus. I always townread her vaguely. In fact, I never once had her highlighted as non-town. I just think her push is on the wrong person for the wrong reasons.

I feel like bookitty is kinda scummy for following her mindlessly, and her re-vote back onto me makes no sense.

I'm scummy for following Titus's logic, while she is just misguided.

Yeah, following her

mindlessly.

Watch the adjectives. I don't think you have any real reason (other than you thinking her tunneling is just what she does as town) as to why Titus is town. You just following her blindly doesn't help a whole lot.

TSO not giving any reason for voting me is strange, as well (other than him cringing at my posts).

What makes a man turn to a life of neutrality?

If you're saying my stance on TSO became neutral, you're wrong. I was saying it was strange that he didn't really pair a reason to it, but I stood (and stand) by the fact that I don't think TSO is scummy for scumreading my reactions so far this game.

Varsoon is lurching towards null/town territory again. I don't like his playstyle, it conflicts with mine greatly, but I'm starting to doubt it's as anti-town as I thought.

Varsoon, you magnificent bastard, you might not be scum after all!

As I came to understand Varsoon's dialogue with me, I lightened up on my (rather biased) scumread on him.

And here's the icing on the cake:

My flaily and aggressive response is what's being read as scummy, and I guess I understand that. I lost my cool, and I guess that makes me kinda stupid/childish. I can't really argue that (I'm assuming that's what TSO/Anen are scumreading me for), but for those who are voting me because I said citizen, I think you need to really re-evaluate your read on me. If you wanna lynch me for my overblown reaction, that's fine, that's entirely my fault. But if you think my reaction was town-like aggression, then I don't think you should lynch me.

This dichotomy isn't really a thing.

Except... it is.

Ozgin's play is the sum total of his play, and people who were suspicious of him for the reiterated Citizen thing (which really does look like a "hey, look at me, I'm obviously town, see my townslip, dammit, look at it!)

I stand by my argument that the citizen thing is a stupid point and I don't think it's strong, and I've been agreed with on that.

can continue being suspicious for the over-the-top overreaction to their initial suspicions.

Not to their suspicions, to Titus' relentless and blind tunneling on me.

The recent drastic change in tone and reads (they might be town after all, and there are good reasons for thinking I'm scummy, but some of those folks are scum on my wagon!) is not filling my heart with visions of puppies and kittens and baby birds, either.

Is it really that far fetched that I realized my reactions were overblown, and I know that they look suspicious? And is it really so crazy to think that maybe I recognize that, and recognize that all I can do is be a productive scumhunter and try to redeem myself for my behavior?

I will say with some degree of confidence that there almost certainly is scum on Ozgin's wagon. That's the nature of multiball. I think he's placating some of the people on that wagon and his responses seem somewhat off given his fury and insult levels earlier on. It's like he realised he was not getting anywhere with the stick, so he now has some delicious candied carrots to share around. I'm sure they aren't poisoned. Well, pretty sure.

Again, I ask: Is it really such a stretch that I recognized my abrasive and explosive behavior wasn't helping anything, and I decided to stop that nonsense? There are people I've been suspicious of who aren't on my wagon too, you know. I don't get your candied carrots analogy, but I did realize I wasn't getting anywhere with my insults and explosions, so I stopped it.

[Skybird]

Anen, look at the sample role pm. Are you saying the wording on your pm where the sample pm says Citizen is a different color?

No.
Why do you think Lala posted about light green then?

The way I read her post was the light green was the role title. Describing colors is very subjective and dependent on the person. So I take the whole "light green" "dark green" "some other green" issues with a grain of salt. How did you read lala's post?

Skybird, you said you have Boon as town. Do you have dragonspawn as town as well or is your Boon read a weak one?

Like House, I respect Dragon's game and ability. I'm pretty cautious about both of them. I do have a light town read on both Varsoon and Dragon due to the claim. Boon has been pretty townie in his posting. Nothing jumped out at me in his ISO that pinged my scumdar.

[Boonskiies]

I think I need to write our my reads' list to put my thoughts somewhere...

[Bookitty]

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie is. I'm saying what I meant by what I said. It's my dialect.

Can you please point me in the direction of other games in which you have used this term, which you claim to be YOUR dialect?

[Aneninen]

The whole point in sample PMs is supposed to be to show you what a town PM looks like so scum can't be caught that way. Still, Anen not having green feels weird. But at the same time, if he was scum, I assume he'd lie and say it's the same as the sample PM. Not quite sure what to think. I mean, mine looks like the sample as far as the green but maybe Wake forgot to color Anen's. I'm not gonna consider it telling because I can't see Anen slipping up on that, especially when he's the one who brought it up and there's a sample PM.

Okay, now I'm f-cking not getting this.
Role PM. Dark green border with a label. In the border some black text. No colors inside. The sample PM has the very same structure and my text may or may not be the same.
Again: why did Lala say that her PM had some light-green? Does anyone have anything colourful in the text itself?

And I don't understand why are we talking about

my

role PM.

________

Bookitty: Ozgin's life is now in Varsoon's hands. Read the thread.

@Aneninen - It isn't WIFOM. There's absolutely no chance of me dying toNight.

Then I must have misread something.

________

Post-edit:

The way I read her post was the light green was the role title. Describing colors is very subjective and dependent on the person. So I take the whole "light green" "dark green" "some other green" issues with a grain of salt. How did you read lala's post?

For me, light green

is something like this

. Also, why did he say in the very next post that it was the same as the sample PM?
In general, why are you townreading Lala?

[Boonskiies]

@Aneninen - Nah, I'm just being vague and garnering reactions.

[Ozgin]

No, I understand exactly what a Citizen/Vanilla Townie is. I'm saying what I meant by what I said. It's my dialect.

Can you please point me in the direction of other games in which you have used this term, which you claim to be YOUR dialect?

No, because I haven't played on-site where I've been town in a game that used Citizen (I've only played like 3 games to completion, and I was scum in one of them). I use Citizen when I play (much shorter) games of Mafia on EpicMafia to say town, unless Citizen is actually a role in the game I'm playing on EpicMafia.

Is that really the only point you got from my entire post? :/

[Bookitty]

Can you link me to one of the games on EpicMafia, please?

I'd be very grateful.

As for the rest of your post, it's essentially just you saying, No it's not, no I'm not, and there's no point in addressing that without verifying what you're saying about your dialect for myself. I've played with you before, you didn't use the term, so I'm curious to know why you're using it in this game and not in all games here since you're claiming it as your dialect.

[Bookitty]

For those curious, the game is Delicious Mafia and Ozgin doesn't use his dialect once.

[Egg]

I'm keeping my vote on Ozgin for reasons that Bookitty is making clear right now and because I don't trust Varsoon to sort him.

[T S O]

god damn it, wake. You made a 5-4-3 setup, didn't you? Haha.

@T S O - Masquerade, eh?

Also, I had forgotten that I was in a Neighbourhood; I am sorry for my disengagement from the game.

[dragonspawn]

I have a rock-solid townread on Titus by this point. She definitely tunnels as town and I see that here with no hesitation or backing off whatsoever.

Despite his fluctuating read on me, I'm pretty confident in House town based both on his actions here and in the hood thread. I don't see him directly interacting with me in the ways that he has if he were scum. I'm not AS confident here, but I'm pretty sure.

Egg is a strong townread too.

I don't care what Boonskiies and Dragonspawn are softing. I've never seen Boon this engaged, so I'm going to hold off judgment on him until later, but Dragon was legitimately pretty suspicious in the hood.

Ozgin is misrepping a bit. Both Taly and Dragon were looking elsewhere and being pretty noncommittal about Ozgin-scum or Ozgin-town for a while -- Taly was worse about it, but I had both the thread and the hood as evidence about Dragon. It looked like to me that they were both trying to deflect from the Ozgin wagon without actually taking a direct stand on it. It's not the wishy-washiness in general, it's the specific noncommittal way they addressed the Ozgin wagon that was bothering me.

I like Anen and I think he's town here (these are not correlating statements, but they are both true). Same with SilverWolf. These aren't the townreads to last the ages, but they're good enough for now.

Ozgin continues to be suspicious because imo he's trying to say that he's being caught for the wrong reasons by some people and for the right ones by others. This is a type of parsing I rarely see from town playing to a town wincon. It smacks of survivalism, something I don't think is out of character for Ozgin as town, but it's much more measured and less direct than my most recent experience of that from him.

I was suspicious in the hood for trying to engage you in conversation and actually use the hood? And you guys wonder why I thought the wagon was week even before the claim.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty: Ozgin's life is now in Varsoon's hands. Read the thread.

I get that, but I prefer to pursue my own suspicions. I think Varsoon is town, but since the Citizen=vanilla townie is explicitly referred to in Wake's initial post, Ozgin's half-knowledge of flavour is really suspicious.

If he were actually a VT, he would know he was claiming VT. But Ozgin seems not to know that.
If it were a dialect he commonly used, why wasn't it used in the prior game I played with him?
Why specifically in THIS game where citizen actually denotes a specific role?

I use Citizen when I play (much shorter) games of Mafia on EpicMafia to say town, unless Citizen is actually a role in the game I'm playing on EpicMafia.

If he were a Citizen, then he would know that it was actually a role. If he's using it generically as a synonym for Town, why is he choosing to do so in THIS game where it denotes a specific role (when he claims he doesn't do that on EM) and not in the other game I played with him?

It doesn't add up.