Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[Wickedestjr]

He did sound annoyed at the hammer, but how does that absolve him?

Because scum don’t want to make it obvious that they’re frustrated when their partner gets lynched.

And Wickedest, I call bullshit on him missing that post by Random.

So you think he saw the post and is acting like he didn’t? Why would he pretend to miss a post? He should be reading more carefully, but I do think random’s comment was easy to miss.

Do you have an actual case on FA and Massive or just a non-case for FF and Fitz?

Just a non-case for FF and Fitz. I don't see why that's a problem though. I've caught many a scum team from POE (it's half the reason I'd been trying to lynch viking all game). FA_Q2 and massive are competent players and they're not going to exhibit any obvious scum tells.

This sudden jump to conclusions seems really rash and I am losing some of the townlean I had on you.

It’s not a sudden jump to conclusions. I’ve been scum reading them for a while now.

[Wickedestjr]

Let's see if I can get something started. VOTE: vote kop since massive and aristo have already indicated interest in going after him. and 2 days is nothing, wicked got monkey lynched in less time. though like i said, there really shouldn't be a deadline without a player in kop's slot, unless he's the one we pick to lynch. There's no question his slot has been scummy across 2 different players.

I don't like this either - Viking knew he was going to be lynched at this point.

It was obvious that he would not be getting a wagon on KOP

to take his place.

I just don't know if i am going to read too much WIFOM with this post.

This is a weak point. The random wagon was not getting any support, Kop was really his only option. And the bolded is false - two other people immediately followed viking's vote.

[massive]

Wickedest, I'm going to be really pissed if you turn up scum in the end.

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum. I'm not saying FA isn't possibly scum, but I am saying you need a re-read, and since you've been one of my favorite townreads in the game, you need to do it with some urgency.

---

I'll be very curious to see how Fitz comes around after having vikingfan confirmed scum and randomidget (essentially) confirmed town.

---

My hammer: I saw FA's post at the bottom of 43 and thought I was posting immediately after it. I didn't go back and see there were additional posts until I saw some non-FA post immediately above my posted vote.

[Aristophanes]

He did sound annoyed at the hammer, but how does that absolve him?

Because scum don’t want to make it obvious that they’re frustrated when their partner gets lynched.

Okay, but the tone doesn't sound "annoyed townie" to me. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

And Wickedest, I call bullshit on him missing that post by Random.

So you think he saw the post and is acting like he didn’t? Why would he pretend to miss a post? He should be reading more carefully, but I do think random’s comment was easy to miss.

I don't know why he would want to pretend that, but you see what I'm saying, no?
He should have read that in the ISO, especially if he was trying to figure Random out, not paint him for a lynch.
He wasn't actually looking at Random else how would he have missed that!

Do you have an actual case on FA and Massive or just a non-case for FF and Fitz?

Just a non-case for FF and Fitz. I don't see why that's a problem though. I've caught many a scum team from POE (it's half the reason I'd been trying to lynch viking all game). FA_Q2 and massive are competent players and they're not going to exhibit any obvious scum tells.

So, if I read this right, "They seem town, so they must be scum." Is that correct?
In my experience, that's usually wrong.

This sudden jump to conclusions seems really rash and I am losing some of the townlean I had on you.

It’s not a sudden jump to conclusions. I’ve been scum reading them for a while now.

And yet you have no case on them??
So what you're telling me is that you pre-PoE'd them based on a gut feeling that Viking was scum pre-lynch even though you have not actually seen enough to call them scummy???
That's a little much, don't you think?

[havingfitz]

Haven't done my reread yet but want to get a few comments/responses in to the D3 postings:

@wicked...

the no kill does help us because instead of needing 4 votes to get a mislynch...scum now need 5. Same as yesterday. I do not see how they have benefited from not killing. Assuming it was a conscious decision.

Can you restate why you think Kop and Aristo are town?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Aristo...

how is my opening post extremely unhelpful. I'm letting people know what I'm thinking. I'm announcing that IMO, random is pretty much cleared (GOOD). And before wicked decided to answer for someone else...I was engaging random in questions about his night actions (GOOD). WHICH...from memory...he seemed to have stated both that he did and that he did not have a shot remaining. So how is clarifying that a bad thing (IT'S NOT)? I disagree that it was "extremely unhelpful." And how is trying to wrap one's brain around the lack of a NK a bad thing? Something could still come of it but it was really just my writing down my thoughts as I was thinking them.

aka my stream of consciousness.

Speaking of which....that is what I was doing when I read through viking. I looked at each of his posts and gave my initial reaction to them (if one was warranted). Having not been on my radar the entire game...he deserved a closer look. And I did find some questionable things in his posting but not enough to overcome what I was seeing from random.

Speaking of which....my post on random was not a line by line ISO read like I did on viking. It was an ISO read on myself trying to summarize the things I had found suspect towards random. And having spent most of the 1st two days trying to get random lynched...I did not feel the need to do a read through similar to the one I did on viking because I was more in tune with my opinion of random's play. So my viking readthrough and my random summary WOULD look completely different. I said I would be summarizing...you call it cherrypicking. Nice negative spin where none is deserved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@FA_Q2...

how are my suspicions towards random "contrived as hell?" I would make the same assessment of your suspiscions towards me. You keep trying to tie in my suspcions towards random with other's suspicions towards viking. viking was never a target of mine so there would not be a reason to stop from "still pushing rando." I explained this just yesterday and you said it made sense.

And not voting someone I do not suspect is not "avoiding like the plague." Was I avoiding the Kop wagon "like the plague?" Are you a graduate of the same negative spin school as Aristo? Do you think it was not obvious viking was lining up to be the lynch yesterday? It was to me. Why, as town OR scum, would I avoid jumping on it? Why as scum would I stay as the lone vote on what is most likely town random when I could have bussed/lynched scum viking for town cred or brought Kop to L-1 as well...and either supported a mislynch there or strived for town cred depending on Kop's alignment? FYI...to avoid a no lynch I would have hammered viking (or Kop if he'd been at L-1).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pre-readthrough reads:
Town: wicked and random
Slightly less town: Fish and massive
Suspect group: FA_Q2, Aristo, Kop

[Wickedestjr]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, but the tone doesn't sound "annoyed townie" to me. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not satisfied with that. If Formerfish was town that wanted Kop lynched instead of vikingfan, how would you have expected him to react differently?

I don't know why he would want to pretend that, but you see what I'm saying, no?
He should have read that in the ISO, especially if he was trying to figure Random out, not paint him for a lynch.
He wasn't actually looking at Random else how would he have missed that!

If there's no reason for him to pretend that, then no, I don't see what you're saying. random didn't use the phrase "the mod told me that" (or anything along those lines), so I can understand it being overlooked.

So, if I read this right, "They seem town, so they must be scum." Is that correct?
In my experience, that's usually wrong.

Wrong. That is not what I said. I said they wouldn't exhibit any obvious scum tells. They are both competent, and I doubt they'd display obvious scum tells as either alignment.

I suspect them because they haven't said or done anything that I'd expect them not to say or do as scum.

So what you're telling me is that you pre-PoE'd them based on a gut feeling that Viking was scum pre-lynch even though you have not actually seen enough to call them scummy???

Uh wat... What in the world is this...?

See post 952. I called the team viking/massive/FA before viking was lynched - because I had town read everyone else by that point. Viking flipped scum, so I continue to suspect massive and FA. I don't know how/why you don't understand that...

[Wickedestjr]

@wicked...

the no kill does help us because instead of needing 4 votes to get a mislynch...scum now need 5. Same as yesterday. I do not see how they have benefited from not killing. Assuming it was a conscious decision.

I wasn't trying to say that scum benefitted. I'm glad it happened, I was just saying that we don't get an extra lynch from it.

Can you restate why you think Kop and Aristo are town?

Kop seems interested in scum hunting and I get the impression that he doesn't care about how he's perceived. Quotes for my kelbris and Aristo town reads;

I just noticed something about Slandaar after reading his ISO. He never ONCE voted for me, despite Oka's insistence that he wanted me dead yesterday and Monkey today.

Huh... I generally get a scum feel from many of kelbris's posts, but this seems like a town tell. I'm inclined to think that kelbris-scum would be more aware of who he's getting votes from.

I townread Cheetory for the stubbornness in his awful Slandaar vote as well as for the manner in which he replaced out. But my town read on Aristophanes, in particular, is solely gut-based.

[Wickedestjr]

By the way, this is a town post;

I knew viking was scum in the manner how he tried to pin something on me.

[FA_Q2]

Haven't done my reread yet but want to get a few comments/responses in to the D3 postings:

@wicked...

the no kill does help us because instead of needing 4 votes to get a mislynch...scum now need 5. Same as yesterday. I do not see how they have benefited from not killing. Assuming it was a conscious decision.

Can you restate why you think Kop and Aristo are town?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Aristo...

how is my opening post extremely unhelpful. I'm letting people know what I'm thinking. I'm announcing that IMO, random is pretty much cleared (GOOD). And before wicked decided to answer for someone else...I was engaging random in questions about his night actions (GOOD). WHICH...from memory...he seemed to have stated both that he did and that he did not have a shot remaining. So how is clarifying that a bad thing (IT'S NOT)? I disagree that it was "extremely unhelpful." And how is trying to wrap one's brain around the lack of a NK a bad thing? Something could still come of it but it was really just my writing down my thoughts as I was thinking them.

aka my stream of consciousness.

Speaking of which....that is what I was doing when I read through viking. I looked at each of his posts and gave my initial reaction to them (if one was warranted). Having not been on my radar the entire game...he deserved a closer look. And I did find some questionable things in his posting but not enough to overcome what I was seeing from random.

Speaking of which....my post on random was not a line by line ISO read like I did on viking. It was an ISO read on myself trying to summarize the things I had found suspect towards random. And having spent most of the 1st two days trying to get random lynched...I did not feel the need to do a read through similar to the one I did on viking because I was more in tune with my opinion of random's play. So my viking readthrough and my random summary WOULD look completely different. I said I would be summarizing...you call it cherrypicking. Nice negative spin where none is deserved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@FA_Q2...

how are my suspicions towards random "contrived as hell?" I would make the same assessment of your suspiscions towards me. You keep trying to tie in my suspcions towards random with other's suspicions towards viking. viking was never a target of mine so there would not be a reason to stop from "still pushing rando." I explained this just yesterday and you said it made sense.

And not voting someone I do not suspect is not "avoiding like the plague." Was I avoiding the Kop wagon "like the plague?" Are you a graduate of the same negative spin school as Aristo? Do you think it was not obvious viking was lining up to be the lynch yesterday? It was to me. Why, as town OR scum, would I avoid jumping on it? Why as scum would I stay as the lone vote on what is most likely town random when I could have bussed/lynched scum viking for town cred or brought Kop to L-1 as well...and either supported a mislynch there or strived for town cred depending on Kop's alignment? FYI...to avoid a no lynch I would have hammered viking (or Kop if he'd been at L-1).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pre-readthrough reads:
Town: wicked and random
Slightly less town: Fish and massive
Suspect group: FA_Q2, Aristo, Kop

It made a bit of sense when we had no flip. Now we know that viking is scum and it makes a LOT more sense that you were trying to push an alternative wagon.

I explained why your reasons were as contrived as hell yesterday. You never adequately dealt with that. The only reason that I moved on from your wagon is that it was getting nowhere and it would not have served town's interest to be on a wagon that would have more likely created a no-lynch scenario and viking was another good scum candidate.

[Randomnamechange]

@fitz the whole point is Viking was never your target. There was no incentive to early bus Viking as it looked like I was going to be lynched, so your play makrs sense from scum pushing thr alternative wagon to your buddy without hard defending him.

[Aristophanes]

@fitz the whole point is Viking was never your target. There was no incentive to early bus Viking as it looked like I was going to be lynched, so your play makrs sense from scum pushing thr alternative wagon to your buddy without hard defending him.

You do realize that's not who you're voting, right?

[massive]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

My hammer post stated what the timer showed. You've had timer / deadline issues all game, haven't you? And evidently I was the only one not voting. Do you think any of the people not voting for vikingfan would have moved?

And nice leading question. Do you ask a lot of questions where the answer is obvious and known to all players?

[Randomnamechange]

@fitz the whole point is Viking was never your target. There was no incentive to early bus Viking as it looked like I was going to be lynched, so your play makrs sense from scum pushing thr alternative wagon to your buddy without hard defending him.

You do realize that's not who you're voting, right?

Yes.

[FA_Q2]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

My hammer post stated what the timer showed. You've had timer / deadline issues all game, haven't you? And evidently I was the only one not voting. Do you think any of the people not voting for vikingfan would have moved?

And nice leading question. Do you ask a lot of questions where the answer is obvious and known to all players?

And nice dodge.

I would like to see you address the point as well. You just put fourth VERY poor logic in defense of yourself. That, IMHO, is generally done by scum.

[Kop]

VOTE: formerfish

Will catch up later, going through a bad time at the minute. From the reading I just did, I am happy with my vote on either FA or Fish for now.

[Iknal]

Vote Count 4.1

FA_Q2(2): randomidget, Wickedestjr
Formerfish(2): Aristophanes, Kop
havingfitz(1): FA_Q2

Not Voting(3): Formerfish, havingfitz, massive

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is 11/06/2015 1930 UTC +10
(expired on 2015-06-11 19:30:00)

[massive]

And nice dodge.

I would like to see you address the point as well. You just put fourth VERY poor logic in defense of yourself. That, IMHO, is generally done by scum.

Do you think there's a realistic reason to ask someone if they bus their buddies as scum?

[Randomnamechange]

I've never bussed as scum.

[massive]

That would be impressive.

[FA_Q2]

And nice dodge.

I would like to see you address the point as well. You just put fourth VERY poor logic in defense of yourself. That, IMHO, is generally done by scum.

Do you think there's a realistic reason to ask someone if they bus their buddies as scum?

I think the question was more rhetorical than anything - it brings up a valid point that your logic was fundamentally flawed.

And you have continued to avoid it.

[Wickedestjr]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

1:

My hammer post stated what the timer showed. You've had timer / deadline issues all game, haven't you?

2:

And evidently I was the only one not voting. Do you think any of the people not voting for vikingfan would have moved?

1: Your hammer post clearly says "one day five hours" which is equal to 29 hours and, thus, falls within the 25-30 hour range that I gave. I can count. That's plenty of time to get a hammer.
2: Yes, any competent player with town's best interest in mind would switch their vote to a less-preferred bandwagon, if it was necessary to prevent a no-lynch.

Withholding your vote would have never resulted in a no-lynch...

[Wickedestjr]

And nice leading question. Do you ask a lot of questions where the answer is obvious and known to all players?

It's not a leading question by any means, it's a simple yes or no question - and the answer is not obvious to me.

You said "there's no amount of town credit that replaces a scum buddy". If you honestly believed that, then you would have no reason to bus. If you can honestly say that you've never ever bussed, then I would retract my scum read on you completely.

But if you can't honestly say that, then I have no reason to trust that you wouldn't bus vikingfan here.

I'm not sure why you don't want to answer. Saying "yes" in no way proves that you are mafia (it just means it's still possible), and I understand that. I just want some insight into your bussing history...

[Wickedestjr]

You haven't explicitly answered yet, but it seems pretty clear what your answer will be, judging from posts 1112 and 1119.

When you say "yes", can you give me the name of the last game where you did? Thanks.

[havingfitz]

Weekend got away from me. Will catch up tomorrow.

Mod...Fish needs a prod.