League of Legends (Old)

[dramonic]

Caytlin is one of the worst scalers as far as adc goes...

Sivir/Ezreal/Quinn/Kalista/Lucian.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Ehm what? Id rather have sivir/Lucian/ezreal/kalista over cait late regarding that list.

[Iecerint]

I'd rather have Sivir for the utility, but the rest looks okay.

Ability-based damage falls off relative to dull autoattackers at 6 items. Kalista usually won't have crit, so she falls off, too.

[zoraster]

http://champion.gg/champion/Caitlyn/ADC if you look at the win % by game length you can see she peaks fairly early in the game. The issue for solo queue is that she's essentially reduced to just using autoattacks and pretty much nothing else.

Her range makes up for a lot of that (it's a GOOD autoattack), but might as well have jinx or tristana late game for that.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Kalista can peel well for herself, and Lucian dishes out better damage 1v1 if getting dove. Sivir you obv want for utility, and Ez is personal for me I'd say

[animorpherv1]

Caytlin is one of the worst scalers as far as adc goes...

Sivir/Ezreal/Quinn/Kalista/Lucian.

Sivir/Kalista both have mediocre lategame dps for an adc in place of additional utlity. In a teamfight lategame, Caitlyn would win about 80% of the time, if not more.

Quinn is both buggy as shit and has problems using more than half her kit in a prolonged fight as she needs to get in melee range to use it.

I hate Ezreal because if he misses like 1 skillshot he's already useless. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but my point stands. He needs to hit all of his skillshots to do damage that's equal to or greater than most ADCs.

Lucian has struggles to get in range to do his damage. 500 range, yo. He has good lategame damage (Lucian's pretty good at everything), but 500 range means he can struggle to get in range against a lot of teams and not instantly die.

Also, save Jinx and Trist, I'd argue that Caitlyn has the best tower pushing of an ADC. Which is one of their main jobs.

[dramonic]

Cait's only strength is her range. Her dps is one of the lowest. Not sure what you're smoking.

[AngryPidgeon]

I hovered around G2 for a long time this season, but I'm not sure if I lost a game after hitting plat. Im in my promos for Plat 4 I think.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Kog also pushes a mean turret, as do Corki and Ezreal.

I find Cait severely lacking in teamfight presence, which is the current meta after all. Its usually better to have tricks to get outta a sticky situation with utility then it to have consistent range, since its all about hard engage anyway

[Papa Zito]

Cait's only strength is her range. Her dps is one of the lowest. Not sure what you're smoking.

He doesn't understand what scaling means.

[Iecerint]

His point is that ADCs that build crit and autoattack inherently scale better than those who focus on ability damage. The reason is that ability damage typically can't crit, which affects their previous itemization choices and reduces an important damage multiplier in the late game. An exception is Varus, who has %HP damage on his W and hence another multiplier altogether. Lucian's passive can crit, so he's also in an intermediate position. This is why Corki/Kalista/Ezreal/MF/Quinn/Urgot/Graves don't do quite as much damage late game. The degree to which this happens can be modified by itemization (e.g., going for a brutalizer will give a nice power-spike attractive to ability-damage champions, but at the cost of 6-item power).

Caitlyn has little incentive to go for a build like that, so she always builds stuff that ends up putting her in the higher damage categories late-game. But only very late game.

She's recognized for that power pattern now because Tristana's rework removed her from that niche (strong early, weak midgame, stronger lategame). She's also not as good at it as old Tristana because she lacks the ridiculous AS steroid. So the % armor-penetration (more relevant as the game goes on) should help her.

[Iecerint]

Caitlyn having a crappy empirical lategame winrate can be explained by match-ups probably. For example, champion.gg has almost 5000 Vayne v Caitlyn match-ups, and the next most common in Jinx v Caitlyn.

[mykonian]

Iec's analysis of lategame adc's seems the best to me.

Not sure if this is necessary, but: basic stuff, adc's work the way they do for two reasons. One they are ranged, two there are 5 ad oriented stats that synergise. You get ad, as, crit, arpen, lifesteal. The more you already have, the more cost efficient another item from that group becomes. Your first pure adc item won't do much damage compared to it's cost, the second greatly improves it, etc. Which is why you hear casters talk about three item spikes on the pure autoattacking adc's. Then there are the items that give you more bang for your buck early, but bring stats that don't multiply with later buys. Your botrk, triforce, shiv, manamune. Great items, do what they are advertised, but mean that buys after that aren't going to give you as much dps from a 2nd/3rd item as you'd get from a pure adc build. Which is fine for the adc's that build them, they want to fight and win the game shortly after buying said items. So dps wise late vs early is largely determined build wise, builds which are obviously incentivised by champions kits. Of course it's nice if you get something in your kit that says "your autoattacking capabilities become stronger" for an autoattacking build. As far as I can tell cait can go two ways with her build. Either with shiv and bt going for the early gold lead (and lets be fair, that's something you see the pros do, but probably not your opponents), or the crit route at which point you better worry about her after half an hour into the game.

Compare other roles and you can see why adc's are the role for the lategame. Casters get 3.5 synergistic stats (ap, cdr, pen, spellvamp), spellvamp really only counts half because it's not very available to most of them, tanks get 2.5 (resist, health, cinderhulk/gromp), which is why cinderhulk and gromp get so much hate, they changed the game. Bruisers have to juggle damage and tank stats at the same time so are going to have to play with the headstart in base stats they get.


Re: sivir. Sivir's lategame damage is a bit deceptive. There's a lot of (hidden) power in ricochet, not just the fact that it hits the entire fight or the 80% attackspeed you get for those 3 attacks, but also because it's an auto attack reset on a 5 sec cd. You get a lot of autoattacks in in the end just off that ability, if you manage it properly.

[animorpherv1]

So, Graham NcNeill is Riot's new Senior Narrative Writer.

[zoraster]

Just made Silver I on my alt. Let's see if I end up with a full Tier of difference between my main account (Silver V) and my alt.

[Gendaberry]

Then there are the items that give you more bang for your buck early, but bring stats that don't multiply with later buys. Your botrk, triforce, shiv, manamune. Great items, do what they are advertised, but mean that buys after that aren't going to give you as much dps from a 2nd/3rd item as you'd get from a pure adc build. Which is fine for the adc's that build them, they want to fight and win the game shortly after buying said items. So dps wise late vs early is largely determined build wise, builds which are obviously incentivised by champions kits.

Err, this isnt quite right. Twitch/Vayne/Kog are all hypercarries, and all three of those build items from that list. Twitch and Vayne build BoRK, while Kog builds both triforce and bork. While traditional AD builds tend to be better DPS wise, lategame strength is based much less on build, and more on the champ's kits.

On that note, Cait is actually so fun to play. I'm trying to pick her up, but I still can't zone lanes with traps properly yet which makes her a lot weaker. I mean, I can win lane but it's nothing compared to laning vs an actually good Cait where you can barely farm. Good wave control combined with good trap placement turns laning vs Cait into a nightmare. I also don't really agree with a lot of you saying that Cait's lategame is bad. Sure, she's no hypercarry but Ive always seen her lategame as being in the top half of carries.

[PJ.]

She's fine. She's just not fine enough. Sticking with Ashe.

[Iecerint]

Twitch/Vayne/Kog build that way because they have special scaling with attack speed, though. They're still autoattackers (just moreso because their kit makes their autoattack special in some way).

[Voidedmafia]

Twitch's ult (or Q, I guess, since it's an AS steroid), Vayne's W, and Kog's W?

[Iecerint]

Vayne W, Kog W, Twitch E/R.

Having an AS steroid makes you scale better with AD, so the presence of the AS steroid isn't why Twitch builds BotRK.

[Iecerint]

Though I guess Twitch's E also scales with AD. I'm not sure which increases E's damage more on a per-gold basis. Just the ult if AD wins I guess.

[Voidedmafia]

Expunge?

I guess, since it means you get to max stacks faster?

(I mean, I know the main benefit is to the ult, but)

[Iecerint]

Yes, the logic was that you stack up faster. But it also deals bonus damage with bonus AD, so that becomes a wash if AD gives more damage per gold.

I don't see Twitch much. ^^;

[Gendaberry]

Yeah I know, thats what I meant. When I read what mykonian wrote, it looked to me like he said that carries that go BoRK or Trinity early aren't as good lategame, which isn't really true.

[Iecerint]

Vayne's R (which gives free AD) also lets her scale better with AS. I forgot about that.