Players Requesting Removal Pre-Game

[pieguyn]

that is essentially what I'm saying

"don't fake a guilty" (or any kind of result that can have a significant factor in how the game plays out) should obviously be the rule 99.9% of the time, but there are, albeit very very rare, exceptions to it

and yes, I'm aware even this is an extremely liberal view of it. I'm perfectly content with just enforcing it as a strict policy 100% of the time, but I'd be lying if I said I've never seen a faked result that benefited town.

(also, no offense, I don't consider you one of the exceptions. sorry!)

[GuyInFreezer]

Why fake a guilty and eat all the stones and flames when you can wait a night, strengthen your push by 10x, and drop a "subtle hint" that you 'might' have a guilty on that guy?

[Kagami]

there was a game a long time ago where, as far as I've heard (I haven't read it, someone correct me if I'm wrong) Cabd faked a cop inno on ffery bc ffery is just that easy to read and she was being run up anyway for nonsense reasons

And PA once faked an inno on Cabd; it didn't go so well.

Saying, "hey guys, I'm confident that ferry is town here. I have lots of experience with her and can read her with perfect accuracy, this is town-ferry." is also a pretty great way to kill the wagon.

[SXTLHGaiden]

Saying, "hey guys, I'm confident that ferry is town here. I have lots of experience with her and can read her with perfect accuracy, this is town-ferry." is also a pretty great way to kill the wagon.

From experience, this is true.

I also believe that faking a guilty is bad. mostly, it is because you tend to be wrong more of the time and this effectively gives scum 2 free mislynches (or a vig shot). this is negative utility at its finest.

[Oversoul]

Why fake a guilty and eat all the stones and flames when you can wait a night, strengthen your push by 10x, and drop a "subtle hint" that you 'might' have a guilty on that guy?

That's the same as a fake guilty

[fferyllt]

there was a game a long time ago where, as far as I've heard (I haven't read it, someone correct me if I'm wrong) Cabd faked a cop inno on ffery bc ffery is just that easy to read and she was being run up anyway for nonsense reasons

And PA once faked an inno on Cabd; it didn't go so well.

Saying, "hey guys, I'm confident that ferry is town here. I have lots of experience with her and can read her with perfect accuracy, this is town-ferry." is also a pretty great way to kill the wagon.

It would not have worked in that game. Both cabd and I were pretty much unknown to the player list. we had signed up to play a game that was out of our league. Also, he didn't have tons of experience playing with me and he couldn't read me with perfect accuracy. he may be able to now, but I wouldn't bank on it.

I was getting lynched that day. I don't know if it would have changed the outcome of the game. The mechanics were very complex.

[kuribo]

actually my piece of advice: ALWAYS be responsible and ACKNOWLEDGE when you fuck up. it's that simple.

And be ready to get run up the flagpole.

Any good player won't accept "Well, I thought I was right so I faked a guilty." Because otherwise scum would just do that shit all the time, knowing there are no consequences for their actions. "Oh, well since you were really REALLY sure and you're REALLY sorry about mislynching a townie, we'll let you slide on that."

Although, honestly, I personally feel I should be allowed to claim anything I want during a game without repercussion. But then again, I realize that's not realistic.

[kuribo]

Saying, "hey guys, I'm confident that ferry is town here. I have lots of experience with her and can read her with perfect accuracy, this is town-ferry." is also a pretty great way to kill the wagon.

I am FUCKING TELLING YOU THAT FERRY IS TOWN. This is from me as A PERSON, telling you that I swear on the blackened souls of my fucking ancestors, if you lynch ffery I will TURN THIS THREAD INTO A FUCKING SMOKING WASTELAND. I will turn on a fucking webcam and KILL MYSELF RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. Then, as you look on in disbelief while I throw my fucking life away, I will resurrect myself into something darker. My mind will creep out of my fucking body and take on a new form, crawling from my human husk. Venom will drip from my five mouths, and I will weave the fucking destinies of all of you into a tapestry of hate. I will fucking drape you all in that tapestry, stealing your very souls and absorbing them into my spirit. I will use this unholy concoction to spread my influence into every sentient being on the fucking planet. I will consume EVERYTHING with my hate for this wagon. The world itself will become nothing more than a ruined shell where the few survivors would envy the fucking dead. Lynch ffery AT YOUR OWN FUCKING RISK, lest I become vengeance personified.

[Elbirn]

there was a game a long time ago where, as far as I've heard (I haven't read it, someone correct me if I'm wrong) Cabd faked a cop inno on ffery bc ffery is just that easy to read and she was being run up anyway for nonsense reasons

that is an example of what I would consider a valid faked result. it only happened because the person doing it was competent enough to be able to be entirely objective about it

all I'm saying here is that there are people who are capable of doing it in certain situations. I'm not saying it shouldn't be extremely rare (as in, almost never happen), but flat-out ruling it out 100% of the time is incorrect.

Won't a faked innocent also probably out the real cop?

Doesn't a faked innocent imply the same amount of arrogance required to fake a guilty, and the same likelihood that you're wrong?

Isn't it still lying which will make everyone with a shallow understanding of the game/your motivations go "hurrhurr lynch all liarsssss"?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

yes.

yes.

yes.

[kuribo]

I played in a game where two cops claimed innocents on two other players. Both claimed cops were already scumreading one another as well as one another's claimed innocents.

It turned out that both of them were sane cops.

[Otolia]

Isn't it still lying which will make everyone with a shallow understanding of the game/your motivations go "hurrhurr lynch all liarsssss"?

Lying as town is terrible and often done by people who think only them can win the game for town disregarding town's true strength in numbers.

[Elbirn]

Isn't it still lying which will make everyone with a shallow understanding of the game/your motivations go "hurrhurr lynch all liarsssss"?

Lying as town is terrible and often done by people who think only them can win the game for town disregarding town's true strength in numbers.

Sure but lynching town is bad. "Lynch all liars" only works if we're more likely to hit scum than town, and we've established that town is dumb and lies too.

[fferyllt]

"I am the fucking cop and ffery is fucking town" is not even close to what cabd did.

Well, I'm left with no choice. Good fucking job, town.

Mara and I have a VERY good role related reason to KNOW Rift is town. We tried to mask it but you all insist upon trying to lynch her into the ground instead of finding scum. So we either lynch PoPP, or we lynch within the confirmed LYLO situation (hint: the scum is SSK)

Is what he said, which was pretty carefully constructed as to not *force* a (nonexistant) cop to out. The game mechanics were so strange that I would have been surprised to find there actually was a cop in the game. Also, I didn't believe he had mod confirmation that I was town at that point or at any other point during the game. I wasn't even sure he was town, though that gambit and the other two gambits he pulled made more sense coming from town than from scum.

[GuyInFreezer]

Why fake a guilty and eat all the stones and flames when you can wait a night, strengthen your push by 10x, and drop a "subtle hint" that you 'might' have a guilty on that guy?

That's the same as a fake guilty

As long as the word "he's guilty" doesn't come out it's a manipulation of implication.

[SleepyKrew]

actually my piece of advice: ALWAYS be responsible and ACKNOWLEDGE when you fuck up. it's that simple.

mafiascum is black and white. flips are binary. you're either right or wrong. if you're right, that's great, keep up the good work. but if you're wrong, apologise, try not to make that mistake again, and learn from it.

everyone makes mistakes. but nobody likes a responsibility dodger. i particularly hate responsibility dodgers -- those who fuck games up and pretend nothing happened/it was someone else's fault.

don't be one. and i think that is fundamental.

"I would've lynched ETL anyway."

[BROseidon]

I've seen a game (NY167 - this is my assessment of it, YMMV) where a town player faked a guilty and it wound up completely fucking the scum team (who otherwise were in a really good position with a majority of players being lost in The Mist) in the ass bc they all tripped over themselves trying to get out of it and then it snowballed from there. I've also seen a game (Pokemon) where someone faked a guilty and it fucked the whole game. what I'm saying is kind of self-fulfilling in that it amounts to "it's only acceptable if you're right" - but there are some situations where it can be beneficial, if the person who is doing it actually knows how to make that kind of judgement

That's not what happened in 167.

[BROseidon]

To be completely clear, since 167 keeps coming up:

Scum lost because a player had questionable reads that were at best based on a trust tell and at worst were straight up cheating (the cheating inference was drawn during the game by myself and enough other members of the scum team to have it looked into), as well as at least one townie and people who weren't even a part of the game. That player put the exact correct scum team in play and built the argument for it such that the scum team had very little room to navigate.

I don't think without Likeabauss's magically perfect reads the fake guilty works, especially because RC drew TIP's counterclaim that would have been proven right on a sangres lynch.

[BROseidon]

there was a game a long time ago where, as far as I've heard (I haven't read it, someone correct me if I'm wrong) Cabd faked a cop inno on ffery bc ffery is just that easy to read and she was being run up anyway for nonsense reasons

that is an example of what I would consider a valid faked result. it only happened because the person doing it was competent enough to be able to be entirely objective about it

all I'm saying here is that there are people who are capable of doing it in certain situations. I'm not saying it shouldn't be extremely rare (as in, almost never happen), but flat-out ruling it out 100% of the time is incorrect.

Faking an inno isn't as bad as faking a guilty, especially if you have the ability to pivot later and redact the claim.

It's why DGB's fake claim of mason with Dramonic in 165 wasn't completely terrible, only mostly terrible.

[BROseidon]

And PA once faked an inno on Cabd; it didn't go so well.

That was a mason fakeclaim with the other mason dead and penguin getting shot after crumbing it. It's a bit different.

[ZZZX]

One of the fun gambits I can think off was a game of greatest idea variation in had offsite where I was a pgo and claimed Mason with the flipped Mason. Made some kind of random fake "bread crumb" and got last scum to shoot me

Was fun



Faking guilties randomly is not a gambit. Making use of wifom to scare the scum to shoot you. Scare the town to lynch you and still keeping the game solve-able ARE gambits

[Ranmaru]

I think asking removal of a player you don't like to play with is selfish if the reason isn't valid. (If it's more of a preference, or you saying they are bad but they are obviously improving) I think the right move for you is not to join that game yourself. Also, give people a chance.