"Quick" response:
In post 262, sangres wrote:Do you think that overreacting is a scumtell for Pieguyn in particular? More importantly, what about pieguyn's reaction felt fake?
Actually, I'm just going to pretty much copy paste everything I've written to Nati so far about pieguy since the vast majority of stuff I've written to Nati is about pieguy. (Also, I don't really like the angle you're pushing here, but maybe I'll get to that later)
It's not that "overreacting" is a scum tell (and the fact you're simplifying it to that when it's pretty clear that's not what I was saying is one of the things I don't like about this stance you're taking on me). It's that pieguy's reaction to gentlemen looked like aggression for the sake of aggression. It didn't feel like a natural "hehe, there goes pieguy again, up to the usual stuff" reaction to gentlemen's early stance. gentlemen's reads weren't all that different from the vast majority of the active players at the time, we were four pages into the game and, more importantly, pieguy's take on the whole "posting elsewhere" thing felt way out of proportion for what it was - a fairly standard observation that was less of a "pieguy is definitely scum, look at this solid evidence" thing and more of a "this is interesting and requires a satisfactory explanation if pieguy happens to be town" thing.
There are a few reasons I thought this was bad.
First, I thought pieguy was making a really poor attempt at emulating aggression here rather than taking a genuine stance; it actually looked a bit like the mentality I sometimes have as scum. Sometimes when I'm scum, I'll think about how to react to something in a way I might do so as town (for example, in a really aggressive tone or with a slew of insults or whatever) but I might ignore the larger picture (like whether my reaction was in line with what was actually going on at the time and what I was responding to, etc etc). I think pieguy mostly knows the cues people are looking for and what pieguy was doing was basically an attempt at hitting those cues... except that it made no sense given what pieguy was actually responding to and what was going on in the game at the time.
Second, the reaction was entirely unlike what I'd expect from pieguy as town and far more in line with what I remember of his push on cephrir in serum&steel. When I expressed a scum read on pieguy in touhou upick 3, for example, the reaction was basically "I acknowledge your reasoning and you're right but..." - which is the sort of thing I would have expected from pieguy-town here. Also, since I think ffery brought up Xenosaga, it's also entirely unlike the reaction to me there, which was (at least at the beginning) rather sensible (like, I didn't think it was town, but it at least was coherent in the sense that the reasoning given matched up with the conclusions and there wasn't any real stretching) and more inquisitive than authoritative ("why?" rather than "this!").
And third, it simply made no sense. For example, pieguy was attacking gentlemen's bork read (because bork hadn't done anything that couldn't be faked) while simultaneously pushing the idea that ffery was town for asking a question of empire. gentlemen's reads were not vastly different to, say, my own reads, but pieguy had no issue with my reads, instead focusing entirely on gentlemen's apparently fake reads. Also YOU know exactly why I think pieguy's response to the "posting elsewhere" thing made no sense; pieguy KNOWS that sort of thing doesn't necessarily come from scum, regardless of "context" (which gentlemen couldn't have had any idea about unless they're psychic and I do not believe Regfan is a psychic... but that would actually explain why he was blushing a lot when I met him because I did spend a majority of the time thinking about what I wanted to do to him and it was not PG-rated). Like, I understand why pieguy doesn't like it being used against him, but it's far from scummy and I am having trouble believing he would take the stance he took as town, even if he is somewhat OMGUSy.
Also, while I'm at it, some other things I've written to Nati about pieguy...
pieguy took a really long time to write his responses to gentlemen - like, long enough that he had to have been thinking, scrutinising and revising his responses (even accounting for the length of the walls). This isn't necessarily scummy - maybe he was just doing a lot of thinking or something - but it is something I think scum are more likely to do than town (I think pieguy especially is the type of player who is more likely to write up a heated response than a carefully manufactured one) so this stood out to me.
I've been thinking about pieguy's appeal to me in #127 and, while on the surface I think I could see him making an appeal like that to me as town (because I know pieguy tends to want me to town-read him when he's town), the fact that the reason he appealed to me was because he was worried that I might sheep Regfan didn't sit well with me. If anyone knows anything at all about me, it's that I don't sheep. Ever. Even when I'm sheeping a la xenosaga, I'm still not actually sheeping. Like I literally don't even think I've ever read another person's case and thought, "this person is making good points I agree with and I could follow him onto that." Also Regfan/Empire aren't exactly a big fish in this game, anyway (though I guess pieguy apparently thinks differently so whatevs).
I have thoughts on #132 but first I want to know whether the fact it was almost a direct copy of
this was intentional or not.
#168 is the first post by pieguy that I actually thought looked town and is one of the main reasons I'm currently thinking he might be town. Similarly, I am not sure he's capable of writing #230 as scum.
I think, if pieguy is town, he should drop the back-and-forth stuff with GB and focus on something else because the more he writes stuff about it, the more I see it as him using it as a crutch to produce content. I don't think his gentlemen read (ignoring the recent couple posts) is all that great for a number of reasons (least of which is that the vast majority of the gentlemen arguments are about gentlemen's read on pieguy and not about much else they've done) and his reads outside of gentlemen look rather weak from what I've seen.
Some questions for you, nacho:
- Why do you think I should have been town-reading pieguy as of post #119? Or at what point do you think I should have been town-reading him? For the record, I'm still not really town-reading him. Though I think it's a lot less likely he's scum than I previously did.
- Did you actually think my issue with pieguy was as simple as "overreacting"?
- Do you think I'd push pieguy for something as simple as "overreacting" if I were scum?
- Does ffery agree with your read on me?
PS: Just assume all wall posts are Nati
-Nati
