Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 1 Mafia(game over!)

[RIP]

We are not killing senator. No
If he hard defended me as scum in that spot more power to him. He is not scummy

[RIP]

VOTE: narminian is scum.
Te way he hopped on each top wagon is lol. I pointed this out and after a reread I see it more clearly.

[RIP]

Titus why are u hard defending narm? Did u see him just sheep u? Why u think he did?

[Titus]

Titus why are u hard defending narm? Did u see him just sheep u? Why u think he did?

Regarding Senator, scum can whiteknight.

I don't guess why people sheep. You are a better lynch than CDB or Narn. I still think your conditional track is shit.

Senator is scum though. His read evolves on me too quick.

[Thor665]

Thor, seriously, stop ignoring me. Why do you scum read CDB. Besides being the key source behind trying to say the hider hid behind him which I and many others doubt because Max would most likely try the best survivability till later in game when his role is more vital. Doing a maybe hide behind scum would be a risky move and with who and how people flipped, I seriously doubt Max hid behind CDB with even the remotest chance.

So besides the hider theory, what else do you have? If you can't answer this, you are tunneling on a single questionable post.

I have multiple times stated my issue with CDB and made no illusion at all about how deep or wide ranging the read was.
If you didn't like it before, and I haven't announced a brilliant new insight and revelation since the last time I stated my case (which, honestly, was probably a day or two ago at most) I have no idea why you're double checking now.
I understand that you don't like the case.
I don't really care at this stage - you play in a way and with a logic that I don't think will ever connect with mine.
Go be quiet and keep voting a wagon that is going nowhere and that you're not pushing functionally and let me work. Or expect to be ignored more in the future. But don't act like I'm not being clear with my thoughts.

[Thor665]

Senator has accused most of the players of being Scum, myself in particular. It would be nice if he had any sort of case on any of us, but at best he simply picks up talking points from others.

I am more than willing to agree that he's doing this.
I am less willing to accept it as an example of scum play as opposed to 'play that I disagree with'.
Where's the meat?

RIP may or may not be some kind of PR, I'm stepping back from him

for now.

The push on him was iffy, and seemed to accelerate after he started dropping role hints all without anyone calling him out for being derp and dropping role hints, then aided by a dash of whipped cream and derp as no one examined the claim except me...who isn't even on the wagon nor particularly in support of it. I was hoping to get a town read off reactions, instead I got a wet fart in my face. it was unpleasent on so many levels.
Yes - we should totally drop that case and move on, I agree.

I was Townreading CDB until the Hider issue came up. I'm still not sure that he's Scum. FoS, yes, definitely.

Then vote him - he's riding a ruddy VT claim. Who cares if he's town at this point? He's worth flipping to simply solve the Hider question.

But Senator's playing a lame game

As opposed to everyone else? C'mon - what is this?

it's almost like he's trying to get lynched. I'll be happy to accommodate.

[Thor665]

You seem to have missed all the math that was done in that regard.

No, I saw the math - I just don't think it makes as much sense as you want me to believe it does.

[1]LQ claimed. Upon his being lynched, the next Day was skipped, giving both Scum and the TownPRs an extra Night for actions.
[2]With him lynched D1, it hindered Scum because they had to shoot blind. They wouldn't know who the PRs were.
[3]If Scum (and some Town) kept LQ alive until later in the game, Scum would have likely known who some of the PRs are.
[4]If LQ were kept alive until LyLo, Scum would win.

[5]So the D1 lynch was the optimal play. We didn't lose anyone too valuable.

1. Yup.
2. So...basically by lynching him Day 1, you gave scum a town lynch (their optimal result Day 1) and a Night Kill opportunity...just like a regular Night 1. And then also a second kill afterwards for free. So they got 2 blind shots where otherwise they would only get 1, and also got a town lynch. Yeah - how terrible for them...?
3. That is a potential, yes. Docs would have also known who a claimed Princess was too. Also Watcher roles. Or other interesting possibilities.
4. Yes, his death would rob town of a lynch attempt, as scum could get an additional kill - just like they did in this game and just like town was robbed of a lynch attempt.

5. Eh... No, the lynch was only "optimal" if you thought he was scum, or were convinced he was town and wanted to let scum kill in the less info stage and town lynch in the higher info stage, but that's a bit of a gamble on slim percentages in any case, and also robs town of a lot of info early on - as we currently see. I actually, personally, think early info is more valuable than late game percentages, but that's because I believe scumhunting is an actual tool that is more powerful than random guessing. If you *disagree* with that, then, yes, you made an acceptable choice. I would have opposed it like the dickens though.

It's not a guaranteed support, and my hurried about-to-go-to-sleep wording from last night could probably have done with less certainty, but the relationship between the two roles really rather struck me.

Eh, yeah, sure, maybe.

While I generally share your opinion that we shouldn't assume that good guys in the show can't be scum in this game and vice versa, all the flips that we've had so far have been from characters (or other shows' creators, grumble grumble) who were good people - or at least, not bad guys. I can understand why people would go 'oh, yeah, he's probably Bashir, which means he's probably not scum'. I'm not going to disagree with you when you tell people that being Bashir doesn't guarantee my alignment, but I'm also not going to go around yelling at people who unvote me because of it because a) clinging to that is more likely to be an inexperience tell than a scumtell for a lot of players in this game and b) there'd be a bit of the turkey arguing for Christmas about it.

I really dislike this "well, questioning people doing stuff that benefits my chances of avoiding lynch (as a VT) is silly of me" line.
It does not read as town.
VT town's job is to question stuff and place votes.
You're acting like your job is to survive. It is killing any glimmer of town I get from you when you occasionally say something that is not empty and look like you're scumhunting.

Probably? Off the top of my head I can't recall if I posted more before or after, but I certainly got more emotional - at least with Titus. I don't really want to talk about this, though. I don't really see self-analysis being very helpful because I know I've been town the whole way through, and I've had no trouble agreeing with every one of my posts this whole game, so I'm pretty willing to call myself obvtown before, after, and during my claim.

Second verse, same as the first.

tl;dr

Narninian might be the best candidate for scum on my wagon. Displaced is maybe my next guess.

I really like Narn for town ever since when I replaced in Day 3, asked for reads, and got a list of town reads and no scum reads. Do you think he's clever/cowardly enough to go for that play as scum? Because I'm not getting that.
I rather dislike the sudden weird surge on him and Senator now from people too. One is based off "lurk!" again, as far as I can tell (what even is the case on Narn?) and the other is some newbies and some other players who really should know better, wagoning someone for, functionally, being annoying.

[RIP]

Thor I hated how narm just comes out of lurking to jump on top wagons that pick up fast.
Instead of just shamesly voting, he makes sheep remarks and this shows a struggle.

[davesaz]

Look at how senator's vote moves. Look at his comments about other people's votes. Note hypocrisy.

Re: narn, is one reads list enough?

[Riabi]

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making shit up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

[displaced]

notes to myself really are notes to myself, typically to remember to do something.

So do something? (You seem a smart cookie, I want to see some chops!)

Riabli, the Klingon case for me has to deal with her waiting for a claim and then trying to hammer before people could analyze it.

This really isn't what happened. I mean, only a few games ago I'd probably be hard scum reading you for this kinda stuff, but I know now that this is something you do as either alignment, so Im less concerned as I might have been in the past. It is causing my earlier townread to atrophy somewhat, however, and if the more pressing CBD issue wasn't at the forefront, Id certainly be taking greater umbrage (TL;DR: IGMEOY)

It's almost as if the goal was never to lynch him, but only to get a claim out of him, and once that happened, no one cared anymore. It's weird.

Almost as if some of the voters wanted any excuse to hop off ...

The hider (Max) most likely hid behind the miller (Saint).

Wrong. If this was the case there would be an indicator in his last post that he was targeting the miller.

4 days left today, iirc.

Klingon, CDB, RIP and I have been the wagons today.

And all have been essentially counterwagons to CDB. I think the steady presence of the CBD wagon with multiple cw's against it is another reasonable strength indicator that CBD is the scum in this mix

After those posts, I'm in love with Suzune, not even 24 hours subbing in, she's calling Senator on his crap and mainly WHY he's anti-town. Thor can wait another day, Suzune just bloody called Senator out on his entire shit bucket of posts that have not progressed town on.

Yet, not so long ago you were merrily bandwagoning away alongside Senator

Displaced might be scum. I isoed him in the process of making this case and he's kind of a prime example of someone who's barely commented on my claim because he presumably just thinks it's bullshit and that I have a hider guilty on me, and I don't know him well enough to say if this particular way of approaching it is subtly more scum or town. What

does

make me wonder is his representation of my relationship to the LQ wagon here, which doesn't look like someone who actually read in real time and actually tried to understand my not-exactly-opaque thought process. He seems to be blending together my attitude at the start of Day 1 with my attitude at the end, which doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't consider how reads evolve and why. But then I'm not really on the verge of saying 'wagon displaced for this!' because do we really have time for a displaced wagon based on that? Meh.

Well I do comment on your claim (the crumbing at least) in the post you reference, but I can expand. The flavour claim is essentially meaningless. Bashir could be a fakeclaim, or it could be a true claim, but that is not relevant to your alignment.

As to the point about your relationship with LQwagon, you are right in that I didn't read in real time. I replaced in and have read you in ISO, so while I might miss some nuance, I do get a broad surface impression. What was clear to me was the two distinct phases of the push; the theoretical one (and Dave has claimed it is right in theory, Im not so much of a buff to be able to say whether this is right or wrong, but intuitively it feels wrong, but obviously that doesn't necessarily bear out) and when you react to his Gene Roddenbury claim, which I can say not only in retrospect is bad but it is bad objectively, especially given you are an experienced player and mod.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh I still 100% think that my stance on LQ's claim was exactly on point. I think it's an absolute nonsense that Roddenberry is character in this game, and especially when a player as disruptive and distracting as LQ claims beloved prince, especially as an implausible character, I did exactly the right thing.

[ChannelDelibird]

I really dislike this "well, questioning people doing stuff that benefits my chances of avoiding lynch (as a VT) is silly of me" line.
It does not read as town.
VT town's job is to question stuff and place votes.
You're acting like your job is to survive. It is killing any glimmer of town I get from you when you occasionally say something that is not empty and look like you're scumhunting.

I'm not unsympathetic to this (I recognise that it's not something that's going to win me friends here), but consider the following:

1) My job partly

is

to survive, at least in as much as it is to kill scum before we are dead. I know that lynching me does not get scum, ergo resisting my own lynch is important.
2) I am even more conscious of the necessity to push to survive at the moment because it would be

so easy

just to say 'well, I guess we can afford to clean up the ambiguity in the supposed crumb by just getting my lynch out of the way', especially when I am actively hating participating in this game. Even if you guys end up following through and lynching me, I won't be sad. But I don't want to throw more replacements into this game and I don't want to be one of the many slots phoning it in, so I am left with no option than to continue playing to my wincon until I can't, for integrity's sake. Resisting a lynch based almost only on a wholly unconvincing 'crumb' is, like, the first thing to address on that front.
3) You're acting as I'm not trying to do both survive

and

figure out who's scum and place votes, and I'm doing what I can.

Second verse, same as the first.

What the smurf were you expecting me to say here? I don't think that there would have been any response to that question that would have made you happy, but I don't see why my answer should surprise you.

[Senator]

Titus is

soo

self centered!

If I didnt know any better I would have gunned for her earlier.

Titus' reason for scumreading has 'evolved' to fit her situational awareness. i.e. she changes her reasons so that they stay relevant.

[Senator]

I sugeest Titus hsow us how my read onher has evolved.

[Narninian]

prod dodge.

[Narninian]

Basically I can't post from work anymore so that is one reason I haven't posted in a couple of days. The weekend is coming up of course.
I find RIP's flailing at me for voting him somewhat amusing. I'm not just looking for an easy wagon, its simply false

[Thor665]

Thor I hated how narm just comes out of lurking to jump on top wagons that pick up fast.
Instead of just shamesly voting, he makes sheep remarks and this shows a struggle.

So, he lurks and then votes people citing other player's cases as his own reasoning - which is more scummy to you than if he just voted without claiming reasons?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but if it's what I think you're saying I disagree with you.
I'll agree he hasn't been around and seems to have relatively empty votes.
That was something a lot of people called scummy on you too.
I still disagree with it as a tell.
All it's saying is that Narn, and you, are playing in an obnoxious way that is not pro-town. It does not scream scum intent though. I think a lot of people on this site play poorly. If I always voted people whose play I found unhelpful/annoying I would never need to scumhunt or look for another tell again.

Look at how senator's vote moves. Look at his comments about other people's votes. Note hypocrisy.

I am agreeing that he is aggravating as a poster.
I'm asking why that makes him scummy.
You're listing habits that show he is an aggravating poster.

I've been reading the game and have apparently missed the "moves" the "comments" and the "hypocrisy" that are scummy.
I might agree that some of his votes and stances are obnoxious - I've even called him out on some derp play and had him respond that I'm wrong even though (to my mind) I'm blatantly right. But the only one I have that seems telling kind of hints that CDB is a scum partner, if it's actually true, so it doesn't really sell me.
I agree that he denigrates others votes. I don't see attacking votes or wagons to be a proven scumtell (I would go so far as to say it blatantly isn't).
I also suspect that you're using hypocrisy wrong and that there is none.
Do you have examples of any of this (maybe just 1-2 of each?). And, along with those examples, thoughts as to why you see scum motivation as opposed to a disagreeable poster? (the hypocrisy would probably be the closest thing you're arguing to a scumtell - as I agree that hypocrisy is more often than random chance a scumtell over poor play, so feel free to focus on that one)

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making Smurf up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

Is he making up stuff worse than Titus - a player you're apparently fine with and are voting in agreement with at the moment?
What's he making up?

I don't care for the 'at best anti-town' jargon. That easily applies to a large swathe of this game. I could apply it to my wagon of choice also. So what? Doesn't make them scum.

1) My job partly

is

to survive, at least in as much as it is to kill scum before we are dead. I know that lynching me does not get scum, ergo resisting my own lynch is important.
2) I am even more conscious of the necessity to push to survive at the moment because it would be

so easy

just to say 'well, I guess we can afford to clean up the ambiguity in the supposed crumb by just getting my lynch out of the way', especially when I am actively hating participating in this game. Even if you guys end up following through and lynching me, I won't be sad. But I don't want to throw more replacements into this game and I don't want to be one of the many slots phoning it in, so I am left with no option than to continue playing to my wincon until I can't, for integrity's sake. Resisting a lynch based almost only on a wholly unconvincing 'crumb' is, like, the first thing to address on that front.
3) You're acting as I'm not trying to do both survive

and

figure out who's scum and place votes, and I'm doing what I can.

1. Does not adddress my issue.
2. Does not address my issue.
3. This does address my issue and, yes, I am saying that - I am saying 'what you can' equates to basically nothing, and that you are in full on survival mode.

Second verse, same as the first.

What the smurf were you expecting me to say here? I don't think that there would have been any response to that question that would have made you happy, but I don't see why my answer should surprise you.

Saying 'I don't see self analysis as helpful' and being generically happy with the result without caring about the reasoning of other players didn't 'surprise' me, no.
It did ping me as scummy though - which I indicated to you.
I was not really 'expecting' anything...well, I dunno, I guess with my read on you I was probably expecting the question would either weaken or strengthen the read, and I can get a little focused as a habit, so probably intended it to strengthen my belief. It assuredly did, because it showed, yet again, that in my analysis of you I'm seeing hard defense and zero scumhunting or town analysis and paranoia.

[davesaz]

Look at how senator's vote moves. Look at his comments about other people's votes. Note hypocrisy.

I am agreeing that he is aggravating as a poster.
I'm asking why that makes him scummy.
You're listing habits that show he is an aggravating poster.

I've been reading the game and have apparently missed the "moves" the "comments" and the "hypocrisy" that are scummy.
I might agree that some of his votes and stances are obnoxious - I've even called him out on some derp play and had him respond that I'm wrong even though (to my mind) I'm blatantly right. But the only one I have that seems telling kind of hints that CDB is a scum partner, if it's actually true, so it doesn't really sell me.
I agree that he denigrates others votes. I don't see attacking votes or wagons to be a proven scumtell (I would go so far as to say it blatantly isn't).
I also suspect that you're using hypocrisy wrong and that there is none.
Do you have examples of any of this (maybe just 1-2 of each?). And, along with those examples, thoughts as to why you see scum motivation as opposed to a disagreeable poster? (the hypocrisy would probably be the closest thing you're arguing to a scumtell - as I agree that hypocrisy is more often than random chance a scumtell over poor play, so feel free to focus on that one)

What I'm seeing in Senator is changing his vote frequently and without any apparent reason. I read that as scummy because I see him probing for a lynch, any lynch, while at the same time not staying on a wagon or doing anything to push it. He's tunneling Titus but voting everywhere else. I see this as setting a stage for later being able to say that he voted people after they flip scum, without having to ever say once why he thought they were scummy or make a case on his own. BTW this might also be a good 3rd party case.

As far as the comments and how they are hypocritical, yes examples would be nice. My previous post was late night on a tablet. This post is mid workday.

[Riabi]

RIP, Thor help us flip Sen and prove he's scum. The guy is clearly making Smurf up and now he's trying to take over the conversation by posting over and over and over. He's at best anti-town, and at worst obvscum.

Is he making up stuff worse than Titus - a player you're apparently fine with and are voting in agreement with at the moment?
What's he making up?

I don't care for the 'at best anti-town' jargon. That easily applies to a large swathe of this game. I could apply it to my wagon of choice also. So what? Doesn't make them scum.

2134 2137 2149 largely outline my case against him.

Also, I never said I was OK with KC. In fact, I said I'd think more about her, and asked for a TL;DR version of the case against her, and was never give that. So, right now, I don't know how I feel about KC, but to categorize it as "apparently fine" is inaccurate.

[Thor665]

What I'm seeing in Senator is changing his vote frequently and without any apparent reason. I read that as scummy because I see him probing for a lynch, any lynch, while at the same time not staying on a wagon or doing anything to push it.

I will happily agree he's probing for a lynch. Sadly, I know he, and many other players, do that as town. I am one of them, frankly, I'm just usually aggressive enough to push through the lynch without too much hopping.

I disagree that he's not doing anything to push his chosen wagons. I don't think what he's doing is great for that purpose, but attacking other wagons and kind of incessently noting his wagon as generically good *is* pushing the wagon.

He's tunneling Titus but voting everywhere else.

He waas voting Titus for some time, as I recall, and I sort of feel like he just recently voted Titus, albeit for a short period of time.
I really don't think they are scumbuddies though - and unless you're suggesting they are scumbuddies I fail to see how attacking Titus but "refusing" to vote him is scummy.

I see this as setting a stage for later being able to say that he voted people after they flip scum, without having to ever say once why he thought they were scummy or make a case on his own. BTW this might also be a good 3rd party case.

I agree players (town or scum) claim past brilliance off derp votes they never pushed hard and even do so into post game meaning they believe what they say.
But, frankly you're suggesting something he *might* do in the future as a scum case...that doesn't really work.

As far as the comments and how they are hypocritical, yes examples would be nice. My previous post was late night on a tablet. This post is mid workday.

Okay. If you presented hypocrisy in this post I totally have missed it, or we have a disagreement about what hypocrisy is. I think the closest you came was the Titus thing, which isn't really hypocrisy, but would at least be lack of inner logic - that said, I disagree with you on the concept that he isn't voting Titus, and also disagree on the idea that they are scumbuddies.

Do you think CDB is still likely town at this stage?

[Senator]

How terrible the pushes on me are.

[Senator]

There's always a new special situation reason to push my wagon.

whether it was because I fiought against the dumbest lynches you guys tried to bring forth
Or because I sorted titus while fighting said lynches
Or because I vote a lot
Or because my 'reads evolve too fast'
Or now apparently because I'm going to try to say I voted people when they flip scum?

Notice how the reasons get more shit as we progress into the game, btw.

[Riabi]

*EBWOP... Crap. you asked about Titus and not KC. I"ve played with Titus before she has a unique style, this looks like her town game to me.

[Senator]

I've never been an easy mislynch, now Id appreciate if you guys could stop trying to do this thing that won't happen.