Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Soft-spoken]

fuck preflip associations though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Molla - Happy to wait till tomorrow, do want it explained though.

my reads are ATM... pie is town. most people are town-leaning (sangres slot recently moved from town to town leaning for me thanks to nachos posting) quil gives me the WTF's but im not sure that qualifies as a scumread. yuriko is begging for a policy lynch. this game is rather unreadable as a whole to me right now.

Mind elaborating on what your current read/thoughts on Muffin, ourselves, Bork and Molla is at the moment (Sounds like you're reading all of us as town but I want to know the strength of the reads in comparison to each other). Also if you're unsure if you've actually got a scum-read on Quilford at the moment if a gun were put to your head right now and you had to guess the scum-team who would you pick?

Don't think this is an accurate characterisation at all.

I certainly do; I still have no real idea where where your thoughts are on a lot of the players in the game other then "Townish!", there's not a huge amount of detailed explanations behind reads listed and the larger parts of when you do touch on it is after I've pushed you for stances which is a huge problem I'm having with you. Also you wanted someone to be online at the same time as you, I popped on but there's not much you seem to want to discuss, I'm around for the next hour if you're still interested in discussing reads, tomorrow night works for me too.

[sangres]

oh and i would very much appreciate some power-posting from ffery ATM because the more nacho posts the less sure i am about sangres town

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

[sangres]

@ Molla

- Want your current read on Pie/Us/Muffin with explanations behind them in detail plz.

Townish/No Idea/Scummish

Hey, bbMolla. I know there are a lot of walls in this game and it might be hypocritical of me to say this, but just because he asked for detail, doesn't mean you had to write so much - you could have been a little more concise.

Sorry I just wanted to prevent people from actually reading my posts so I made it as long as possible.

This was cute and all, but plz put in some reasoning for your reads now.

[Quilford]

I certainly do; I still have no real idea where where your thoughts are on a lot of the players in the game other then "Townish!", there's not a huge amount of detailed explanations behind reads listed and the larger parts of when you do touch on it is after I've pushed you for stances which is a huge problem I'm having with you. Also you wanted someone to be online at the same time as you, I popped on but there's not much you seem to want to discuss, I'm around for the next hour if you're still interested in discussing reads, tomorrow night works for me too.

Please. You haven't had to push me for stances, you've had to ask me for them. You certainly haven't had to be 'dragging them out' of me, as you originally said—that implies some sort of resistance on my end. Prompting people for their thoughts happens in Mafia games literally all the time.

My biggest problem, and it's one that others are having too, is that it's really hard to get a read off of people who seem to be doing a lot of scumhunting with the aid of meta. As my scumhunting style depends massively on the analysis of rhetoric and semantics, I'm often at a loss when looking at these large meta walls because I'm not familiar with players' histories and thus ill-equipped to judge the conviction and genuineness of the cases being made. Yes, I know I'm making excuses. I think they're pretty good ones tho.

I originally asked, what, six hours ago? Since then I've been dealing with study, dinner and

The Killing Season

. If you want to shoot me a couple questions now go for it.

[Gold Saucer]

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

Do you have a harder scumread on any other player? I'm kind of hitting my end of D1 slump which is, in this case, stacking with several off-site distractions right now, but I don't know who else I'd really want to be running up right now with any remote amount of surety; most of the people in this game have been sitting on their own wagons for the majority of the day which is stymying potential interactions.

If you've got a different direction you want to go, I don't know that you've made that really clear enough right now (I am reading Nacho as the one who has moved your last two votes -- let me know if that's wrong but I don't think it is, and that's got its own set of issues [namely the lack of any real explanation other than he wants a flip that isn't Yuriko])

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I'm making VERY slow progress here. After reading the first 6 pages for three times, I think pie and GB are possibly both town as I can see both coming from town and the

sensible scum approach would not to be arguing about things again and again.

Quilford also seemed town because he was asking genuine questions and trying to end the fight; scum would have wanted it to go on and on I suppose.

RBD started out difficult to read because they're just doing weird things like claiming PGO and claiming to be different persons while the posts are all from the same person (which is very confusing) so I probably need to read more posts to determine my read on them.

These are the only read I have up till page 6. I'm reading so slowly I'm hating myself. I also don't like it when I don't understand the first few pages where everyone is making references to meta and playstyle. (P-edit: when I say I don't like it I mean because I'm unable to check whether the claims are genuine and the meta logic is hard to understand out of context)

What is inherently in scum's best interest about acquiescing in an argument rather than continuing it?

Why not just skip the stuff about meta and move on to something that actually does strike you as worth talking about if you're not getting anything from the early pages rather than declare yourself blocked from proceeding?
I understand that this is a game that can only demand a certain amount of free time from people, but I really feel that being "up to page 6" 10 days into the game is an unacceptable level of engagement at this point in the game especially with the wagons as they are. Even if reading up is killing you, no one is requiring you to read the whole game before you're allowed to interact with anyone. There is plenty of non-meta stuff going on here - how do you feel about any of it?

-b

[sangres]

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

Do you have a harder scumread on any other player? I'm kind of hitting my end of D1 slump which is, in this case, stacking with several off-site distractions right now, but I don't know who else I'd really want to be running up right now with any remote amount of surety; most of the people in this game have been sitting on their own wagons for the majority of the day which is stymying potential interactions.

If you've got a different direction you want to go, I don't know that you've made that really clear enough right now (I am reading Nacho as the one who has moved your last two votes -- let me know if that's wrong but I don't think it is, and that's got its own set of issues [namely the lack of any real explanation other than he wants a flip that isn't Yuriko])

-b

I don't know about harder scumread, but the other player I feel least town about is Quil. It could be that from a meta perspective that I don't have, he's a shining beacon of town by now. Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Nacho moving our vote to Quil is the first of our votes that I feel quite good about.

[Gold Saucer]

Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Can you be more specific? I'd strongly prefer your explicit stance on the slot even if it's just agreeing with things other people say.

-b

[Quilford]

*sharpens knives*

[Gold Saucer]

It doesn't actually presuppose anything of the sort? I hope my explanation above of what I was trying to convey by use of the word 'tryhard' clears up your confusion.

it does, yeah

-b

[Quilford]

Suh-weeeet

[Quilford]

Hey bork hey hey bork

[sangres]

Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Can you be more specific? I'd strongly prefer your explicit stance on the slot even if it's just agreeing with things other people say.

-b

The first thing that bothered me was that I feel he was slow to get serious about the game. I thought this could be because he knows the player list really well and was enjoying the early game and wasn't in a hurry to get to the serious lynching and killing. But, as the game has progressed, it's come out here and there that most players don't know him well as a player and don't have a ton of experiential meta with him. Nor he with them.

I liked that someone reacted to Soft-spoken's early posts because I hoped the way Ss engaged with it would give me some data for reading him. Ss didn't react as I kinda expected, but has been really, really town in other ways. The only thing that bugs me a little is the way he kinda lags, reacting to stuff from 2-3 days earlier, but it does track with his availability to play. I mention this because to me, it's just about the only thing that still gives me any pause about Ss at this point, Quil is still scumreading him, and in fact is the only player voting him, despite making noises about his read softening.

[Gold Saucer]

Hey bork hey hey bork

ya

-b

[Gold Saucer]

The first thing that bothered me was that I feel he was slow to get serious about the game. I thought this could be because he knows the player list really well and was enjoying the early game and wasn't in a hurry to get to the serious lynching and killing. But, as the game has progressed, it's come out here and there that most players don't know him well as a player and don't have a ton of experiential meta with him. Nor he with them.

is this a meta thing for quilford?

-b

[Gold Saucer]

I liked that someone reacted to Soft-spoken's early posts because I hoped the way Ss engaged with it would give me some data for reading him. Ss didn't react as I kinda expected, but has been really, really town in other ways. The only thing that bugs me a little is the way he kinda lags, reacting to stuff from 2-3 days earlier, but it does track with his availability to play. I mention this because to me, it's just about the only thing that still gives me any pause about Ss at this point, Quil is still scumreading him, and in fact is the only player voting him, despite making noises about his read softening.

This really doesn't read like anything resembling a ringing endorsement.

And you feel good about the vote from Nacho?

-b

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

I didn't specify that his read/vote has a sticky feel to me, though it's in the subtext of what I wrote. he's holding onto the vote in the face of a lot of posting that looks pretty damn town to me, and has garnered quite a few strong townreads from other players.

p-edit yes I do. strong townreads narrows my lynch pool down to quil and Yuriko, with bbmolla as a distant 3rd.

[Gold Saucer]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing. Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me. Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

[Gold Saucer]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing.

Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me.

Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

I am having trouble relating with a lot of what you're saying in general this game because you're not being specific enough.
Did quil actually do any of the underlined? How did you like how molla engaged?

I kind of hate the fact that I feel obligated to constantly grill you about this stuff as it's really flying in the face of several things I was really comfortable about from you in particular (Nacho I am having no real luck deciphering this game) and I am constantly feeling unsure how to resolve my read on your slot

-b

[sangres]

bork, I think you know that the early phase of day 1 is one of the most enjoyable aspects of mafia to me. It's also a part of the game where some of my most enduring reads form.

I've tried to map Quil's play onto how I feel about the early game, and there are things that just don't feel right, and the Ss trajectory is very troubling. Another trajectory that made me wonder was his rvs vote on us. We came under fire for the Rancid read and vote. I haven't looked back to confirm (will do that in a bit) but I remember thinking that Quil didn't seem really invested in sorting us during that, though his vote was still on us.

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing.

Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me.

Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

I am having trouble relating with a lot of what you're saying in general this game because you're not being specific enough.
Did quil actually do any of the underlined? How did you like how molla engaged?

I kind of hate the fact that I feel obligated to constantly grill you about this stuff as it's really flying in the face of several things I was really comfortable about from you in particular (Nacho I am having no real luck deciphering this game) and I am constantly feeling unsure how to resolve my read on your slot

-b

What Quil did was the second. I mentioned the first because in the last game Sangres completed, Nacho voted someone for something like the first, and I wound up shortly after with a town read on the slot.

anyway. Let me go back and get post numbers for you and make sure my memory is good.

[Gold Saucer]

bork, I think you know that the early phase of day 1 is one of the most enjoyable aspects of mafia to me. It's also a part of the game where some of my most enduring reads form.

I agree with all of this, but I am at the point where I am a little worried about the potential to get blindsided by someone that I am purely townreading due to tone/meta and am feeling the need to both keep you honest and align in analysis once I've gotten over that hurdle. The latter objective in particular feels a long way off
-b

[sangres]

re Molla, it was his yuriko push. objectively I hated his saying she was firefighter or scum, but the subtext there was "and I'm so sure she's scum, I'll say it".