Newbie 1625: American Spring - Day 5 (DL - 08/31)

[Akuseru]

Thank you. I think I'm getting a feel on how you think. I don't agree with majority of your reasoning, but at least I have a better understanding of how you came to it.


@Thespio:

Moving away from HCL for a sec, what are your thoughts on Veegee's lurking?


In this case:

Stoz

Stoz is active and cautious which is good and what I expect from a Town member, He hasn't given any scum indicators away.

I don't think actively lurking is a good town tactic and should give off "scum indicators" (or a new player who's not too sure about what they should do). Why is stoz more likely to be town?



@Veegee and Stoz: What are your thoughts on Thespio's argument against HCL? on HCL's responses to Thespio? Do their points hold up? Why or why not?

[Thespio]

Thank you. I think I'm getting a feel on how you think. I don't agree with majority of your reasoning, but at least I have a better understanding of how you came to it.


@Thespio:

Moving away from HCL for a sec, what are your thoughts on Veegee's lurking?


In this case:

Stoz

Stoz is active and cautious which is good and what I expect from a Town member, He hasn't given any scum indicators away.

I don't think actively lurking is a good town tactic and should give off "scum indicators" (or a new player who's not too sure about what they should do). Why is stoz more likely to be town?



@Veegee and Stoz: What are your thoughts on Thespio's argument against HCL? on HCL's responses to Thespio? Do their points hold up? Why or why not?

This is true too, Someone lurking tends to be mafia allowing town to fight itself. Veegee isnt missing he posted so he wouldnt be prodded,

Veegee please post reads!

He has significantly less to judge, I am willing to look @ him and turn away from HCL for now, but it doesnt clear HCL. HCL already said his scum view is based of vote patterns so if he anticipates vote patterns then its not something I will use to judge him.

If Veegee doesnt post He needs to be looked at more seriously.

[Akuseru]

The question about stoz was also directed to you, Thespio

In this case:

Stoz

Stoz is active and cautious which is good and what I expect from a Town member, He hasn't given any scum indicators away.

I don't think actively lurking is a good town tactic and should give off "scum indicators" (or a new player who's not too sure about what they should do). Why is stoz more likely to be town?

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1.5

MEAN TWEETS

HenryCabotLodge

(2): JoramvanVugt, Thespio

VeeGee

(1): notscience

Thespio

(1): Micc

notscience

(1): VeeGee

Not Voting

(4): Akuseru, HenryCabotLodge, StubbsKVM, stoz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: July 19, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2015-07-18 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Thespio]

The question about stoz was also directed to you, Thespio

In this case:

Stoz

Stoz is active and cautious which is good and what I expect from a Town member, He hasn't given any scum indicators away.

I don't think actively lurking is a good town tactic and should give off "scum indicators" (or a new player who's not too sure about what they should do). Why is stoz more likely to be town?

Ah, i see, your questioning my read, when i wrote this, page 1 and a half, he hadnt been as hardcore lurking as he had, i was just pasting my initial observation of him.

[StubbsKVM]

I can think of a 5 letter answer~

Scum is 4 letters... what is are the 5 letters?

OMGUS

[StubbsKVM]

Oh My God You Suck
(Redirected from Omgus)
OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you.
Why Do This?

It can be used as an "excuse" for a Random Vote near the beginning of the game, or as a retaliation when someone is close to being lynched, as a vent against the frustration (even if the player being voted for has no reasonable chance of being Lynched).
Occasionally a Scum player will use it to cover a strategic vote, feigning outrage to get someone else closer to a lynch.

For the newbies, this is from the wiki page.

VeeGee, why are you voting NS?

[Thespio]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

Can you clarify what you mean by "for the sake of progress"? As much as I like having a vote taken off me, I'm really confused. You seemed suspicious enough of me to be ok with lynching me as early as post 37 in the thread and have spent most of your effort making arguments against me. I'm surprised you'd unvote me if I'm so scummy. Is it because you realize your arguments against me are fabrication and you can see they're not gaining any traction with the town?

I'll be interested to see if JoramanVugt removes his vote as well since he imitated Thespio's actions/ reasoning last time. If he decides to keep his vote on me, I think we should probe further into his logic.

I'm seeing a solid town effort from Akuseru- inquisitive and impartial. Same goes for notscience and StubbsKVM but I have a better gut feeling about Akuseru.

Everyone else has not posted enough for me to have an opinion on them.

[Thespio]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

Can you clarify what you mean by "for the sake of progress"? As much as I like having a vote taken off me, I'm really confused. You seemed suspicious enough of me to be ok with lynching me as early as post 37 in the thread and have spent most of your effort making arguments against me. I'm surprised you'd unvote me if I'm so scummy. Is it because you realize your arguments against me are fabrication and you can see they're not gaining any traction with the town?

Im still ok lynching you, its obvious that you are scum, but spamming the chatboard is allowing people to lurk as well. So I will brand you as 'Scum' and come back to you once everyone inputs.

I'll be interested to see if JoramanVugt removes his vote as well since he imitated Thespio's actions/ reasoning last time. If he decides to keep his vote on me, I think we should probe further into his logic.

I'm seeing a solid town effort from Akuseru- inquisitive and impartial. Same goes for notscience and StubbsKVM but I have a better gut feeling about Akuseru.

Everyone else has not posted enough for me to have an opinion on them.

I agree, Akuseru seems Pro-town at this point.

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

Can you clarify what you mean by "for the sake of progress"? As much as I like having a vote taken off me, I'm really confused. You seemed suspicious enough of me to be ok with lynching me as early as post 37 in the thread and have spent most of your effort making arguments against me. I'm surprised you'd unvote me if I'm so scummy. Is it because you realize your arguments against me are fabrication and you can see they're not gaining any traction with the town?

Im still ok lynching you, its obvious that you are scum, but spamming the chatboard is allowing people to lurk as well. So I will brand you as 'Scum' and come back to you once everyone inputs.

This doesn't make any sense. It's "obvious" that I'm scum, so you're taking your vote off of me? If I'm that obvious about my scumminess why should it matter if there are lurkers? On top of that, I wasn't even remotely in any danger of being lynched quickly with two votes on me, so it's not like we were in some race against the clock to hear from everybody (which according to you, doesn't even matter since I'm so clearly and obviously scum). The only way this makes sense to me is if you realize your "case" against me was transparent garbage and a failed attempt to push a lynch quickly and now you're trying to save face and not look inconsistent.

VOTE: Thespio

[Thespio]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As far as my reads, I think Thespio is scum and possibly JoramanVugt, if that's what you're looking for.

[Thespio]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

Yes I remember reading your outline of my posts. I also remember responding to them and explaining my logic in post 88, which I'll quote here:

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

Instead of responding to or engaging with me on this, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge them and just double down on what you had already been saying. I don't think you have much faith in your arguments since you removed your vote on me. I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As for my reads being crap, you're scum because you declared me to be "obvious" scum after making a career out of castigating me and then removed your vote on me claiming that it was in the interest of hearing from more people. I think it's because you realize your case on me failed to gain any momentum and you don't want to seem unreasonable pushing me when nobody else is doing so.

JoramvanVugt is scummy because he voted me for voting somebody in my first post (something which he also did- except mine was in the random voting stage, If you're unfamiliar that's where random votes are cast) then he proceeded to regurgitate the arguments you presented against me. Moreover, he also expressed a desire for me to roleclaim on the third page when I wasn't in any danger of being lynched which is asinine and would be completely detrimental to the town.

This is more than just OMGUS which is what you seem to be intimating.

[Thespio]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

Yes I remember reading your outline of my posts. I also remember responding to them and explaining my logic in post 88, which I'll quote here:

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

Instead of responding to or engaging with me on this, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge them and just double down on what you had already been saying. I don't think you have much faith in your arguments since you removed your vote on me. I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

You are flawed here, these points while similar contain more, unresponded to point of error on your scum part. You cannot dismiss them because you don't like being questioned. I also responded to this post after you made it. Dont exuse me like you have some flawless logic.

I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

no what happened was, I went to look at the people lurking and you accused me of being scum, whats happening right now is what i wanted to avoid, an all out brawl that draws attention away from them. Your anger is another indicator of scum, now that you have been ousted you get upset and confrontational. The town isnt dumb, they will see this failure on your part to actual show why your logic, as I presented, is sound, and also will see your failure to support any votes you have made.

[Thespio]

As for my reads being crap, you're scum because you declared me to be "obvious" scum after making a career out of castigating me and then removed your vote on me claiming that it was in the interest of hearing from more people. I think it's because you realize your case on me failed to gain any momentum and you don't want to seem unreasonable pushing me when nobody else is doing so.

JoramvanVugt is scummy because he voted me for voting somebody in my first post (something which he also did- except mine was in the random voting stage, If you're unfamiliar that's where random votes are cast) then he proceeded to regurgitate the arguments you presented against me. Moreover, he also expressed a desire for me to roleclaim on the third page when I wasn't in any danger of being lynched which is asinine and would be completely detrimental to the town.

This is more than just OMGUS which is what you seem to be intimating.

Look if your interested in investigating him because A) he is lurking, and B) when he posts its regurgitating my statements then maybe you should post that, this is why I removed my vote from you. to give you a chance to input and also so i could find someone else to redirect pressure onto, but instead you decided to fight with me about my reads. In doing so looking more and more skummy, Your vote on me simply looks like OMGUS. No one will support your OMGUS vote that you responded to my arguments with. While he looks scummy I question why you are so adamant to lynch and brand anyone who thinks your suspicious as scum.

[Akuseru]

....you guys pretty much copied and rephrased your posts from the last page on to this one.


I personally feel like thespio and HCL are both town. At this point, I find it more likely that scum is amongst veegee, stoz, notscience, StubbsKVM, and Micc.

@JoramvanVugt, I'm waiting for your answers to StubbsKVM's questions (

post #95

) on the previous page.

@SEs and IC, I expected you guys to post more and at least help direct town/teach us how to play...unless both scum are experienced players *sigh* (However, I like to entertain the idea that only one of you might be scum. Naive, I know >.>)

@MOD: (I know it's mentioned in the sample role pms, but just to make sure): Did this game start with a pregame (ie: Mafia had a chance to speak to each other before it started)?

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

Yes I remember reading your outline of my posts. I also remember responding to them and explaining my logic in post 88, which I'll quote here:

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

Instead of responding to or engaging with me on this, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge them and just double down on what you had already been saying. I don't think you have much faith in your arguments since you removed your vote on me. I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

I just re-read the thread and realized post 88 is actually before Thespio submitted his post by post analysis of me- just wanted to point that out in the interest of honesty. I think it still explains my thought process pretty well and why I posted what I had up to that point.

Akuseru, what do you think of Thespio removing his vote even though I'm "obvious" scum and wasn't in danger of being lynched?

[stoz]

I personally feel like thespio and HCL are both town.

This is the conclusion that I came to before I even got to Akuseru's post. It is easy to get into a town vs town fight when there are only a few people posting strong opinions.

As for my reads being crap, you're scum because you declared me to be "obvious" scum after making a career out of castigating me and then removed your vote on me claiming that it was in the interest of hearing from more people.

To me, declaring HCL as obvious scum points more towards Thespio being town. If Thespio was scum he might not want to be as certain so that he looked less suspicious if it was a mis-lynch.

Akuseru, what do you think of Thespio removing his vote even though I'm "obvious" scum and wasn't in danger of being lynched?

And HCL still just wants to tunnel Thespio. I still think that HCL and Thespio are both town, but I would certainly vote HCL before I voted Thespio.

What about VeeGee who pops in to post just so he doesn't get prodded and then votes NotScience with no explanation?

[Akuseru]

Akuseru, what do you think of Thespio removing his vote even though I'm "obvious" scum and wasn't in danger of being lynched?

I think he merely believes that by keeping his vote on you he's directing the entire game/attention on you and also believes that in order (for him as well as everyone else) to examine other players he must first take his vote of you (ie: He's sure you're scum but doesn't want to keep talking about you and the only way to stop (in his opinion) is by taking his vote off you for the mean time).

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress

, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

No but

everyone

focusing on you allows people to lurk

I was all for examining others D1,

but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?

Thing is, there isn't much fixation on HCL (besides thespio), and he could have let his vote remain on you as he analyzed/question/or accuse other players. Further more his actions don't dictate the rest of us, so he doesn't have to take his vote off just so WE can direct our attentions to others. I'm leaning more towards that being just the way he plays (new?).

[fferyllt]

@MOD: (I know it's mentioned in the sample role pms, but just to make sure): Did this game start with a pregame (ie: Mafia had a chance to speak to each other before it started)?

The confirmation phase was pregame. Mafia have the opportunity to discuss the game in a private thread before day 1 officially starts and during each night phase.

[JoramvanVugt]

So i read through all the posts. I voted for HCL cause i dont trust him. He started the game with a random vote but later on tells us that he thinks random votes and bandwaggons are bad and should not happen. so he changed his opinion on random votes in 2 pages time.

Also im playing a newbie game cause this is my very first game. i dont know a lot about maffia and came here to learn. some help would be amazing instead of omg he is guilty cause he didnt do this little thing like all other players do. I dont know how maffia is being played on this site. i still need to learn all of that. so sorry if i dont do things like you guys want me to..