Mini 1674: A Minimalist Text Adventure (Fire's Out)

[Huntress]

Eight pages already? Too much to read now so I'll catch up after dinner.

[Huntress]

I'm going to go with my gut here and vote Soren. Quite a few of his posts are pinging me. Same with Asher. There's something "off" about BlankFace but I'm not sure what so he stays at null for the time being.

Vote: Soren

I'm up for reads, but I'd rather wait until more people like notscience, Bulge, or Cho have posted just to not be rash.

Why is it "rash" to give us what reads you have without waiting for everyone else to post first?

[Huntress]

What are the posts that pings you?

The first ones were 34 and 39.You can hardly call ns out for replacing out of that game when you had

already

replaced out of it yourself before him; and 39 looked rather over the top, as if you felt you had to justify sheeping BBT. Can you show where you've expressed similar sentiments before?

In 40 you make an observation and just sorta leave it hanging there without saying what you think of it, as if you want someone else to make something of it.

In 66 you said, "But if that prevents BBT from scumhunting later on in day 1 then we have a problem.". What did you see in BBT's posts that made you think that might be the case. This also implies that you know he is town because why would it be a problem if scum doesn't scumhunt?

81 and 84, I can't believe you really thought BBT was saying he could make the scum nk so these posts don't make sense and look like you were just trying to find things against him. I actually thought you were joking when I read 84 but the vote in 86 implies you weren't.

120 looks like you were avoiding commenting on the wagon or were discouraging comment on it.

Do you have any reads besides your read on BBT?

[Huntress]

Because I haven't seen what everyone is like nor how they interact with the rest of us. I don't want to jump to conclusions on anyone when I don't feel like anyone has been particularly scummy yet.

If you don't have any scum reads, why did you say you were going to give reads on everyone when the rest of us had posted? Why not just wait until you do have reads?

Hey huntress,

Do we share an alignment this game?!?

You always are scum and im town ;-;

It seems like we are never town together!

Maybe if you're town!

Is it the other way round this time?

[Huntress]

@ Pieguyn:

Re: 418 - Are you saying that because Soren is playing better than he did in what was effectively his first game here, and not asking newbie questions, that he can't be scum?

I dislike several things about BBT's most recent catchup. notsci's reads are weird as hell. he's scum reading both Soren and BBT, which doesn't really make sense and

was done in a position where Soren and BBT are the main wagons

. the Sakura scum read is also baffling. more elaboration on these/responses to questions incoming.

Soren wasn't one of the main wagons at the time. In fact it was NS that put the first vote on.

[Huntress]

@ Asher:

Re: 439 - What do you mean by "expecting behaviour"?


The Bulge makes a good point in 456 about RC.

- for example, I think she is misinterpreting what Soren is saying about notsci having to be replaced. if you look at what actually happened in the game, Soren willfully replaced out bc he claimed his RL was busy (then came back later and said he would have been fine if he stayed in the game), whereas notsci had flaked for a large portion of D2. when Soren was in the game he was fairly active, and he was clearly mindful of how lurking would harm the game. so calling Soren out for hypocrisy there is incorrect

I was going by the fact that they both requested replacement rather than NS just dropping out, which was what was implied in 34, but I can see your point.

Huntress' only substantial post is defending soren, which kind of came out of the blue.

Certainly not defending, and not out of the blue either as it was a follow-up to my initial reads post.

[Huntress]

Expecting behavior as in 348's "Why not just wait until you do have reads?" Is it just a question, yeah, but at the same time it suggests there is some action you thought I should have been doing.

I was puzzled why you wanted to wait until everyone had posted so I asked. What happened between 318 and 369 to affect your reads?

no. I'm saying that the assessment that he's asking pointless questions here is incorrect, and thus that scum reads on him for it are misguided. the meta merely serves as an example of what I'm talking about here.

I see. I took it that you were giving that game as an example of his scum meta. If you weren't then why bring it up at all? I agree with you that his questions weren't pointless by the way.

[Huntress]

I need to follow up on some stuff but I'm taking an early night due to a thick headcold so it's going to have to wait for tomorrow.

[Huntress]

That was horrible.

I'm still not up to snuff yet but I'll try to get some thoughts together before the thread is locked.

By the way, that thing about Mala saying she isn't going to be lynched? She does that as town. I don't know if she also does it as scum because I'm way out of date on her scum meta, but if she flips town then I (or someone else if I can't) need to check if the people who were using that against her knew that.

[Huntress]

Also, I'm pretty sure Mala's abilities included Seer and Cop so she would have known this was multiball most likely.

I'm pretty sure she had one of them but I doubt it was both. Her 718 implies that she was only looking for a single scum team.

OR there is a Role Cop and the WW Seer is a counter.

Do you mean there may not be any werewolves that she didn't already know? Like having a deputy without a cop or doc.

So who would want to kill cho?

Someone who thought she could read them well?

[Huntress]

I don't have any problem with Sakura or RC's votes on Mala.
Pie confirms her scum read on Mala in 894 and others.
NS reaffirms his scum read on Mala in 901.

In 917 Bulge votes Mala. Bulge had barely mentioned Mala before 749 where he says "I should take a look at Mala and pieguy. Those seem like important reads to have." Then:

If RC isn't happening I'd like to do Mala. Everyone has mentioned it/danced around it but we never got a solid wagon going.

VOTE: Mala

This gives the impression that he had previously been involved in discussion about her, but he hadn't. He then produces a case which boils down to Mala being non-committal. It looks very much like he saw there was support for a Mala-lynch and decided to push it.

Asher's vote in 924 was the one that switched the wagon from a minor to a major one, despite the fact he had been reading Mala as neutral or town.
No problem with Pie's vote as it follows her previous posts on Mala.
NM also barely mentions Mala. He asked Sakura whether something Mala did was scummy for her. Sakura said it wasn't. NM makes no further comment before voting Mala.
As for BBT's vote. That almost deserves a policy vote. He doesn't seem to have had a scumread on Mala either, Athough it's possible I missed it.

Vote: The Bulge

2nd choice would be Asher (partly due to previous stuff), then BBT. Soren is still there too.

[Huntress]

Someone who thought she could read them well?

and who might that be?

I'm not sure who here has played with her a lot but I'm guessing it's quite a few. NS and Pie for a start.

Which reminds me, NS was watching that wagon grow but didn't say anything about it. See 927/928.

[Huntress]

The context was very much the point. You had given no indication that you were scum reading Mala before you voted her in 917 after two people had voted her and two more had said they were willing to do so.

How well do you know Mala's play?

[Huntress]

Ok. No problem.

I've played with Mala a fair bit.

Then why claim the first two points in 919 are scum tells for her? And why was it scummy for her to be unsure about many of her Day one reads? Your interpretations of some of those reads put a slant on them that just wasn't there.

[Huntress]

I'll catch up with this tomorrow.

[Huntress]

Fair question. I wasn't thinking of meta, really. I do use meta as a tool, but I'm not observant enough to use it passively. If I want to meta someone I have to actually go back and read past games (depending on how long ago they are, and I haven't played with Mala in a while).

So why didn't you do that this time?

Also N_M can still be lynched purely for his hop onto the Mala wagon.

Didn't you intend for people to join the wagon you were pushing?

But I think most people here would agree that it was time to end Day 1 and just move on

Less than half way through Day one? I doubt it. Who are you claiming was thinking that? Ditto for the similar comment you made in 721. Who were you referring to there?

[Huntress]

Huntress, what's your read on Soren and what do you make of her reasoning for joining my wagon?

His voting you for your hammer wasn't a bad vote in itself but the wording and timing of it were both off. Other than that he's been looking more town recently. I think there are better prospects for scum if there is just one team, but if it turns out to be multiball then Soren is a strong possibility.

No one in particular. Maybe I was wrong. That's a possibility, but the fact that people like nm have been posting less since the drama stuff suggests I might be right.

But he hasn't really? And I think any less posting by people in general is more likely to be due to the holiday weekend.

Vote: Asher

[Huntress]

I'd rather lynch The Bulge or Asher toDay than BBT, and I don't see BBT as being scum with either of them. Or with Soren.

If you had to choose between Bulge or Asher, which would you go for?

[Huntress]

If there's anyone I wouldn't want to see in lylo it's probably you due to the way you're tunnelling people. Your 1207 is a misrep of Bulge's play so far this game and your reaction to him is OTT. By all means vote him, but do it on his play in this game please. More chance of getting a proper wagon going then.

@ BBT:

NM is town. I'm not voting there. Hobbes is town from Sakura's play. RC I'm not so sure about, but probably town although I might check out some of his scum games to see if he plays those the same way. I think I've only seen games in which he's been town. Asher, Bulge, BBT and Soren I've already mentioned. I'll have another look at the other three tomorrow.

[Huntress]

@ RC:

Read the part of BBT's sig that's in caps. Don't you think that if he was scum he would deliberately react the same way as he's previously reacted as town? And don't you think that if he realised you were trying to provoke him he would realise that as both scum and town? What makes it an alignment tell?

I'm more interested in what you said about his confidence level as I'm seeing plenty of frustration but not lack of confidence. Can you describe where you're getting that low confidence read from?

[Huntress]

Why does Pie's flip make Asher probably not scum?

[Huntress]

She started off suspecting him, then gradually drew back from that. Did she mention him at all on Day two?

[Huntress]

I found pie's lack of scum hunting on day 2 odd. Coming back after her prod saying that lynching BBT was all she wanted to get done for day 2 or something on those lines. And her adamancy on me being town was odd too. Like why did she have such a strong town read on me unless she is scum and knows that I am town.

Perhaps she was trying to give you the message that she knew your alignment?

I felt her push on BBT was opportunistic. And assuming that scum tried to kill BBT on night 1, and knowing that he survived, scum could have possibly guessed that he was a BP SK, especially since a scum got killed in the night. So I'm seeing scum RC pushing BBT because scum RC knows that BBT is sk and wants to get rid of the SK as he is posing a threat to scum.

Couldn't the same be said about

your

vote on BBT?

[Huntress]

NM is town.

Vote: RC

That's L-1.

I think he is brazen enough to go straight for a lynch on someone he failed to nk.

I could also go for Asher or Soren, or possibly Bulge.

[Huntress]

I'd just like to mention I think I was the only one scumreading pieguy.

And...? Who do you think is scum?

blankface essentially tried to get a second wagon going because they tried to kill bbt d1 and it failed and then they were like "oh so there is prob and sk and he is prob bp because look at my dead buddy!" and then he realized that if the sk got lynched wws were p much fucked so he tried to save him the end

Actually BF was the third player to vote off the wagon. If he was trying to save BBT wouldn't he have been better to add to one of the others rather than start a fresh wagon?

[Huntress]

Asher is still my top scumread.

I'm not really seeing it on BlankFace apart from his mild interactions with Cho Day one.

Not_Mafia is town.

Notscience is a likely candidate for killing Pie and I think he was stretching it a bit with his comment in 1353, but apart from that he hasn't really come across to me as scummy.

Soren is still a scum lean.

The Bulge is looking more town compared with the others although I still have reservations.

Vote: Asher

[Huntress]

Someone tell me what I'm not seeing about BlankFace please?

[Huntress]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Blankface is scum.


@ Asher: I've already explained that I think, apart from adding that you've done next to nothing for the past two weeks.

[Huntress]

Even with pie's interaction with asher you still think that asher is scum?

Yes, I do. Look at 58, 60 and 61. Pie votes Asher and tells him he is scum. Using RVS to convey a message? In 73 she queries BBT's vote on Asher and then moves her vote to BBT in 83 while defending Asher. 149 could be coaching, trying to encourage him to look more town. She pushes him a bit more and then in 253 she says she wasn't, and never was, particularly sure of Asher scum. It's not definitive, but it certainly doesn't preclude him being scum.

What do you make of Asher's 1343?

[Huntress]

Because she's voting me for absolutely no reason, and trying to discredit the fact that I was right about pieguyn. Also Blank, you were pretty sure Day 2 that I was scum with RC (1141). And I didn't vote BBT who was town. But that still makes me the scum here?

If you think there're no reasons then you haven't been reading my posts. But as far as I can see, your only reason for voting me is that I voted you. Unless it's the fact that I questioned you early on Day one.

So pieguy should have been sure I'm scum in the first day? For 83, are you suggesting that she is defending me in the exact same post where she says you don't need experience with someone to defend them?

If you're scum then she would have known that, so yes. And yes to your second question, but I don't get your point in asking it?

[Huntress]

Are you counting your questions on Day 1 as part of your reasons? Because otherwise I see your reasons as I voted for mala, and that's it. If I'm missing something, please show me. My second point is that you're suggesting pieguy said you can defend someone without previously playing with them, and then defending me. Are you suggesting that pie would be so straightforward and obvious as to say that they were defending me?

It started off with a gut read, mentioned in 315, and the questions reflected my concern about your posting which I referred to (vaguely I admit) at the end of 1025. Looking back I see you never did reply to my question in 803 where I asked you what happened between 318 and 369 to affect your reads.

Pie was attacking BBT for attacking you. She was talking about you defending BBT, not about herself defending you.

[Huntress]

Huntress, AK is to you what RC was to me.

If he was scum, he would have hammered by now. What are your reads on NotMaf, Bulge, and NotSci?

The failure to hammer is probably the only thing that looks town about him at the moment. NM is a town read. Out of Bulge and NS I'd prefer to lynch Bulge although I wouldn't say no to a NS lynch.

[Huntress]

So your reasons are a gut feeling and a reference to said gut feeling. Between 318 and 369 I got the time to spend to write a readslist.

Nope. The gut feeling was only from the first few pages. After that my suspicion was based on your Day one responses to questioning and your jumping on the wagon of one of your townreads.

Why did you say what you did in 1343?

[Huntress]

So Asher doesn't want to answer my last question.

@ Bulge and NM:

What are your reads on Asher? Would you be willing to vote there?

@ NS:

As above plus why did you say no to lynching Bulge? What gives you a town read on him?

@ Asher and Soren:

What are your reads on Bulge? And would you be willing to vote there?

[Huntress]

Because you seem to like to tunnel on me, so I thought I'd remind you what I got right.

I assume this was meant for me? How does being right about Pie make you not scum? And how does my having three suspects equal tunnelling?

Also can you answer my question about your read on Bulge please.

[Huntress]

But Huntress never interacted with Cho.

Nor did I interact with half the other players on Day one.

So what is your current read on Asher?

[Huntress]

I'm ok with voting Soren, and also fine with waiting for NS before hammering.

[Huntress]

@ BlankFace: Was there anything particular you wanted from NS?

I'm around for another hour or so if you want to give him longer.

[Huntress]

Vote: Soren

[Huntress]

I think it's Bulge or NS.

NS is mainly because I didn't like his L-1 vote on BlankFace. If BF was doing what NS said he was, then why wouldn't BF have put a second vote on either Bulge or NM?

Vote: Bulge

[Huntress]

The only thing I see against NS being the last ww is the Day one voting.

I'm not bothered about Cho's vote on him in 385. That could well be distancing. Not so sure about Pie's vote in 418 though. At the end of a post discussing several others she just said "notsci's reads are weird", then voted him in her next post. She says more in 422 and other posts which doesn't look so much like distancing to me. Those votes are both switched to BBT but Cho votes NS again in 772 later after very briefly voting Bulge.

[Huntress]

Prod dodge while waiting for NS's reply to BF.

[Huntress]

Can you give a link for that please? I can't see where he reacted to any of the wagons on you. Unless you meant 749, but that doesn't relate to a wagon.

[Huntress]

We can afford what? Two mislynches?

Nope; it's only one.

@ NS:

Can you reply to 1509 please?

The only world I can see NotSci being scum in is one where Cho busses him hard with the expectation that she'll be lynched/killed and hopefully let him coast to victory off of it. But I cant see her doing that before she found the traitor. And I don't know if self-sacrifice would be her thing.

Not sure about Cho, but I've seen NS bus his partner to a lynch day one in a micro and get a victory off that so I wouldn't put it past him to suggest it to her.


BF would be a third choice for me. His mild interactions with Cho on Day one could have been distancing but he is coming across as a lot more towny than NS so gut says town.

[Huntress]

I forgot about Cho's role there. No, it doesn't make sense in that case. And Pie couldn't have been in on it anyway.

[Huntress]

The fact that no one else is bothering to hunt is really depressing.

I ran out of things to recheck.

[Huntress]

I referred to the most recent checks in 1497, 1509 and 1526. Some of the stuff I've already got in my notes though so I don't have to find it again.

[Huntress]

He targeted me N1 and I've read it as being
Bulge N2
Soren N3
BlankFace N4.

[Huntress]

I'm here for a bit.

Just trying to think my way through this.

[Huntress]

I'm rereading BF again but not found anything new. Even that wagon on him was mainly poe reads, not based on suspicion.

[Huntress]

Now, why would I bring the two of you to lylo with me instead of notmaf/BF or notmaf/you?

This might possibly be the clincher. And yes, what you've been saying does make a lot of sense. But I'd like to wait and hear from BF before making a final decision.

[Huntress]

Why is that a clincher? NS didn't know that NotMaf was a PR until today. He even said so himself.

Exactly! That's why the NM kill was more likely to come from you. NS didn't know NM was conftown so given his (NM's) play yesterDay, taking out one of us instead would seem the better option.

I'll address the rest of your posts later, but I've got a deadline looming elsewhere so I have to give priority to that first.

[Huntress]

And then there's the "I've just skimmed past Huntress's Iso and realize I've been brought here for huntress to vote me" bit. Which makes no sense. Why would I bother to push how I thought NS is conftown if I was just going to bring NS and Huntress here? Why would I try to change Huntress's mind when she said that she wasn't ruling NS out?

Maybe because you were planning to nk NS and then changed your mind? The fact that you weren't keeping your options open did have the effect of strengthening my town read on you yesterDay though.

So like I said earlier: I don't have a good mindset for this right now. I'll be here tomorrow to go through all of your posts. But Huntress, just take a look at NS's posts yesterday and tell me how that comes from a town mindset. How being so vague about everything helps town. How if he was so certain I was scum since day 4 that he wasn't pushing me harder?

I don't think it did help. But I'm not sure that he had anything to push you harder

with

. His main reason for scumreading you seems to be your pushing a counterwagon to BBT's on Day 2, and I can't see anything since.

[Huntress]

If Huntress is scum and was told NotMaf was town night 1, why would she keep him around? Because he buys her a town read just by being alive for so long. It brings up the "Why not kill a town PR?" Argument. First, is FN strong enough to be worried about? I don't think it is. Especially when you can keep him around in attempt to clear yourself.

Main problem with that is the danger of another PR turning up later in the game, especially if it's one that can confirm themselves and/or others, and so reducing the lynch pool too far. I don't think that I would take the risk if I was in that position.

Again have to ask why I would kill NM when he was actively trusting me? He wasn't scum reading me and he's the only one here I have meta with to have any sway in his opinion. If I was scum, I'd have a better chance convincing him this is my town game that he's seen before than convincing one person I've never played before I'm town. It also would have put all of the pressure on a town member who was vocally apathetic about the game. If I could talk NM out of not lynching me two days ago, why wouldn't I think I could do it again as scum?

But he would know that, wouldn't he. So would be even more wary of you because of it and therefore a possible tthreat. He's already shown that he was willing to reconsider his reads.

[Huntress]

So I'm scum because of NK speculation? Is that what this is boiling down to? Because that's fucking weak.

NS can't come up with one reason I'm scum outside of the NK that sticks. You haven't come up with one reason I'm scum outside of the night kill that sticks.

That's my whole problem really. I'm not scumreading you and no one else seemed to have anything on you either apart from NS's accusation of you starting a counterwagon to BBT's wagon (and I've explained why I think he was wrong there). I haven't got much against NS either, only the stuff we've already discussed.

I'm rereading the Day one and two stuff yet again to see if I can get any fresh inspiration.

[Huntress]

are you going insane?

Probably. Rereading the Day one stuff between Cho and NS has that effect on me.

Notscience.

I've picked out what I think are the relevant posts:
5 Pie votes NS.
58 Pie takes vote of NS and tells BBT that a policy lynch on NS is bad and she'll make sure it doesn't happen.
65 Pie defends NS saying he isn't a lurker.
76 Pie agrees that she is one of the people who can 100%-read NS.
379-402 No idea what to say about this, except that Cho votes NS again in 385
418 Pie says BF is town and that NS's reads are weird.
419 Pie votes NS (he now has three votes on him).
422 Pie says NS's pushes are weak and queries his read on Sakura.
481-506 Cho says RC should vote NS and that he is scum. She keeps poking him.
505 and a few more - NS replies to above and lists some of his scumtells. A bit of AtE but that's not surprising given the context.
519 NS says he doesn't think scum-marquis would risk starting this wagon in this playerlist, unless she's scum with both pie and sakura.
523 NS says Pie's stance on him is curious because she leaves open the route for him to talk out of it whereas he feels like scum pie would try and trap him into whatever he was saying and make him condemn himself.
563 NS says he thinks Cho is definitely town.
652 Cho says to NS "Also if it wasn't clear I don't know if you're town or scum anymore, but (I never thought I would say this) either way the wagon needs an emergency brake right now."
675 Pie says Even if notsci is scum, there are 2 other scum to find - and we don't have to lynch notsci right at this very second. So I don't really think continuing to push notsci here will be a very efficient course of action.
1007 Pie says notsci likely isn't on a team with Cho.

What I need to look at is if Pie ever voted NS. And Pie's reactions to Cho voting NS. Because I think that is what Cho was doing the entire time; looking for the traitor. Vote your partner and look at how people acknowledge it, look for anyone who seems to notice what's up.

This seems to be what is happening here.
Pie starts off by defending NS.
In 385 Cho moves her vote from BBT to NS.
In 419 Pie moves her vote from BBT to NS.
In 645 Cho moves her vote back to BBT.
In 668 Pie moves her vote back to BBT.
In 772 Cho votes NS again but by this time he was in little danger of getting lynched.

I'm wondering if Pie was deliberately mirroring Cho's votes there to get her attention. There is another parallel between 652 and 675.
I think the point NS made in 523 about Pie leaving the route open for him also points to her knowing he is a werewolf.

BlankFace

258 BF quotes 149 and says Pie is town.
418 Pie says BF is town and that NS's reads are weird.
435 BF asks if Cho is an alt.
441 BF asks Asher how he feels that about the way that Cho has responded to the questions that NS and he have asked.
535 BF tells NM to ISO Cho and tell him exactly what Cho has brought to the town.
537 Cho thinks BF is is newbtown or deceivingly experienced scum and is leaning the former.

I don't think these posts point to BF being Cho's partner.

[Huntress]

I can't see anything in the rest of Day two or in Day three that sticks out to me.

Day four started with NM and Bulge voting BF purely on poe. 1338 and 1339
1348 NS says last scum is blankface, following it up with 1353.
1363 I questioned him about 1353.
1381 (3rd para) BF asked him about it too.
NS never gave a direct reply to either of these.

With NS's failure to satisfactorily back up his vote, it looks like he was just taking the chance to push a lynch on a player who hadn't attracted much suspicion up until then, and not even then apart from NS's suggestion of the motive for BF's Day two vote; thus avoiding the need to nk him and saving more viable mislynch targets for later rounds.

Is there an actual push going to happen in the near future?

What did you mean by this?

Look at it this way huntress- the nightkills make no sense to have come from me (which I've said)

Do they make sense coming from BF? I mean with concrete stuff you can point to, not just wifom.

[Huntress]

I'll wait a bit for a response from NS before voting, but from what I've seen so far I think he's the last werewolf.

[Huntress]

Vote: Notscience

[Huntress]

Hoping and praying aren't really good scum tactics.

But sometimes that's all we can do.

[Huntress]

Why did you not kill notmafia

Because his flip would point back to me if I did it too early. And I was concerned about another doc protect.

[Huntress]

Thanks!

I actually thought you were a PR, although I can't remember what made me think that.

@ Bins:

Thanks for the game!

Are the PTs open yet?