Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Wickedestjr]

You asked me to ISOdive him and I did? Hence why I have a stance on him now where I didn't before?

For what it's worth, you said you were going to ISOdive Anen and then never did- I was reminding you of something that you already planned to do.

I just think it's interesting that virtually nothing from Anen was worth commenting on in your initial read through, but an ISOdive uncovered some points/questions that suddenly made him voteworthy (at a time when the bandwagon was rebuilding).

I expressed what I felt was the general sentiment of his first few posts in the game, which was that the people scumreading him were scums OMGUSing him.

Okay, well I have explained why I don't think Anen was saying this.

[Cheetory6]

I also kind of think your point of "you wanted some original reasoning for your scumread" is kind of tacky because I'm pretty sure I'm not sheeping anyone on either of the other points I made? Or do you think I needed more original fake reasoning to justify my scumread? :/

In other news, I'm feeling surprisingly energetic right now.

Feels good.

P-Edit:

For what it's worth, you said you were going to ISOdive Anen and then never did- I was reminding you of something that you already planned to do.

This point is gross. Was this your intent with reminding me again? So you could eventually hold it over my head later? :/

I just think it's interesting that virtually nothing from Anen was worth commenting on in your initial read through, but an ISOdive uncovered some points/questions that suddenly made him voteworthy (at a time when the bandwagon was rebuilding).

I pick up things a lot easier in ISOdive. If you look at any game I've played in the last 2-3 months you'll see this. You won't win any argument based on this angle. I guarantee it.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm done with this Cheeto.

I said I didn't like your vote. I explained why. I know that I'm not scum trying to misrep you. If you want to think that I am, then go ahead. (I don't care anymore.) But your reasoning for thinking that I'm scum misrepping you is garbage.

I just hope that everyone else sees that.

This has become a long frustrating argument that is consuming my Saturday, not progressing the game in any way, and probably going to kill some interest in this game for others. I'm worried that it's not close to being over. I feel like you're misrepping me and it is incredibly frustrating that this conversation is still going on (over one point that I don't even feel that strongly about).

I will explain my point one more time, for everyone else, and it's the last time I'm doing so;
Cheeto voted Anen. I saw something in one of his comments that felt like a significant exaggeration (I still feel that way). I think Cheeto was unnaturally quick to decide that Anen was voteworthy.

He could be scum trying to make Anen-town look scummy. He could be scum trying to get on the Anenscumlynch quickly so that he can look good the next day. I don't know, I

just

felt like the point was misrepping Anen. That is all there is to it.

[Cheetory6]

Aw. I was enjoying our back and forth
Sorry you don't get the same enjoyment out of engaging me.
I'm not sure I understand how exactly I'm misrepping you, so if you want that to not be a throw-away statement you could go into detail.
I do genuinely feel like you attacking me for the abruptness of my vote is at the very least a hard misread of the context of my state in this game. You had originally asked me my thoughts on Anen and reminded me, so for me to ISOdive him, become convinced that certain aspects of his play were scummy, want answers to questions and then vote him seems completely natural in my head and for you to try to use that as a reason to scumread me especially feels dishonest considering you were literally the one to prod me in that direction.

[Cheetory6]

Like. If you're having a bad time here, by all means, respond to me in like a day or two.
Just think it's lame to drop the weight of your Saturday being wasted on me for trying to probe your reasoning just because you can't walk away and come back to this later.

[Wickedestjr]

I enjoy back and forths (our back and forth a few days ago was good). It's just that this one didn't seem to be progressing at all. It felt like you immediately assumed I was scum misrepping you before trying to understand my actual thought process. I felt like you were misrepping me. That's why I called it a waste - that comment wasn't meant personally and I hope not to have offended you. It's just that I have other things that I want/need to do today and I was hoping to have started a few hours ago. I plan to come back to this later.

[Empire]

DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 17

Aneninen (6)

-

Vinkah, Layla, Nachomamma8, notscience, Cheetory6, implosion

notscience (1)

-

RedCoyote

fferyllt (1)

-

Aneninen

Tammy (1)

-

Gnomeo

Cheetory6 (1)

-

Wickedestjr

RedCoyote (1)

-

pieguyn

Nachomamma8 (1)

-

Tammy

Not Voting (1)

-

fferyllt

Mod Notes

-

notscience is V/LA for one week.

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch! Deadline is on July 30th at 12:00 PM EST or in (expired on 2015-07-30 12:00:00).

[Nachomamma8]

Cheetory's 471 again has me scratching my head as to why people aren't getting town pings all over the place from this fellow. Is he known to be so self-deprecating as scum? We've played a couple of times, and I never got that impression. Cheetory, I think, would be far more bullish as scum. Here he reads as genuinely feeling slighted and unable to really get his footing on why he can't come across more effectively.

Maybe this is overkill, but I still don't think he's the best vote today.

When I'm town, for the most part, every push I make with reasonable confidence is a push that I'm expecting to go through. As scum, I know that I'm not just going to push a mislynch all day and will need to make some pushes that I later back down from just so it looks like scumhunting, hence the scum tell of occasionally making pushes that I don't really think are going to go through.

Cheetory's push on Tammy looked a lot like that to me, like his expectation of the push was that he was going to argue with her a little while, she explains her mindset, he backs off and goes somewhere with a higher probability for a lynch. It felt that way because his opening case against Tammy seemed like a push but didn't really have good reasoning to back it up, and as soon as he was challenged on the case, it seemed like he was immediately looking to back off from it.

I find that less likely now because it just seems like an element of his playstyle, like maybe he has trouble wording things at first or tends to have an in the moment emotional response to something before bringing out a much more sensible action later; his recent exchange with Wicked seems to exemplify that almost perfectly (the argument of implied OMGUS or whatever was really really terrible but attacking Wicked for caring about this post in particular was much better). I think if Cheetory were scum he would possible be more cautious about this tendency, make sure his responses would be more measured and would very possibly be more bullish.

[Nachomamma8]

That being said pie's response to my claim si really really sketchy.

I made a huge fucking deal about her rate at reading me in that mini that just finished and pie's not sure I'd think to fake that as scum? Really? That looks forced as hell and is bugging the everliving shit out of me

Then why aren't you voting her?

You get these strong reads every once in a while on people you have pretty good familiarity with, but I've never seen you get a read like this and just sit on it.

If you're looking to get engaged with the game, pushing a read like this is the probably the best way to go about it.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel disengaged too, and it scares me, given this player list. halfway through day 1 and 22 pages in this crowd is pretty weird.

I'm actually really happy with the pace of this game so far; I feel like enough things happen each day that are significant to comment on where it's not dragging significantly, I feel like posts from pretty much the entire playerlist are well thought out, no one is getting into dumb extended tunnels that require my time and energy to derail...

I don't feel worried about the game that much anymore because of how thoughtful and focused the town is now. I think if we can maintain this approach to the game the whole way through, then I think it's only a matter of time before cracks begin to show.

[Nachomamma8]

My top three are now probably notscience, Anen and Layla.

was trying to find what was bothering me.
i don't know what to make of it, but the best way to describe it is listing those three and voting ns who pretty much everyone has as eh? while it seems that there is a least a small contingent wanting to push Anen is underwhelming?
putting Layla in there also is also a bit surprising.

I think these are probably easy targets at this stage, but I can't say I really disagree with them.

[Nachomamma8]

Anyway, I have kinda skimmed some but i've seen people mention things about not having a good scum read and I wonder if there is something to my suspicion that this could be multi factional of some kind. :/

I don't think there's a high likelihood of this: I'm worse than most people of feeling out multiball versus not but I would really really hate Empire if this was the case and all those nice feelings I had would fade away so no multiball.

[Nachomamma8]

But,
I don't think anyone really cares about my posts at all.
If I'm here and answer things = I'm called scum.
If I'm away for RL reasons and don't do anything = I'm called scum.

I don't think it's fair to say that people are calling you scum/not scum for activity reasons: there's depth in thread beyond that.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen games like this when someone gets called scum regardless of everything. Sadly said, I even joined wagons like that as town. But, at that point I strongly think staying alive wouldn't help the town at all.
As long as I'm alive I'll be an easy lynch for the scums. (Unless someone throws an investigation on me.)

I also pretty strongly disagree with this; I think that you're improperly judging the momentum against you at this point in time, I think you're underestimating the ability of town to properly read you, and I think that the "I'll always be an easy lynch for scum" line to justify being okay with your lynch is lazy and bad.

[Nachomamma8]

She derailed my wagon becasue he thought "it was clear that the town was on its way to a mislynch.) My gamestart was very similar to that game. (Yes, I did it intentionally.) Why hasn't she realized the same thing?
If I'm wrong about this, my next guess is RedCoyote.

It depends on why she was townreading you in the first place: despite some similarities in posting lines or thought processes, I assume this situation is very different than that one and your thoughts here aren't necessarily the same as your thoughts there. I also don't understand why you expected Ffery to town read you when you were doing the same thing intentionally: doesn't that mean you're doing what you would do as scum?

Why RedCoyote?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh I do like that you're voting someone who is probably the strongest universal townread at this point: it's a bad move survival-wise for scum, the reasoning you've provided feels genuine, and I think it matches up with your mindset right now for you to throw down what feels like a hail Mary vote like that one.

[Nachomamma8]

This is a reasoning I know very well from IRL situations (not games, real situations!) – it shows evil intent which has a clear goal: wipe someone out of a complany/workplace/community/etc. (Implosion: I'm not calling you evil; it's a game and I've done things like this before too.)

I'm not sure what exactly you're accusing implosion of here: are you saying that implosion is attempting to alienate you from the rest of the town by saying that you're objectively scummy (and supporting that by pointing out that a lot of people suspected you)?.

[Nachomamma8]

Anen, you know what's bothered me? It's that when I caught up in that game, you had played with a lot of humor laced through your frustration about being tunneled. I don't see that here.

You don't think that its possible that stress of moving is bleeding into his play and making him less jokey than usual?

Do you think his scum game had a more serious tone?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm thinking (again) about voting Gnomeo, but it's not really based on anythng solid. Tammy I wish you and Nacho had more to say about that game you played with him. It was really the only one of his scum games that looks at all like this one.

Next time I spend some time on this game after today, I'll have a look over his meta (both in HoH and his main). I can't really tell you much about that game now because I only vaguely remember it.

[Nachomamma8]

but the more he pulls this the more I'm seeing it as a crutch to avoid having to generate content bc I'm definitely not the only person who said in the game thread I wanted to give him room to catch up in the game and I'm pretty sure I've been saying as much for a while now.

Mmmm, not really seeing this much at all. Being resigned to death isn't a reason to stop posting content: it's added urgency to get all of your reads out in thread as soon as possible because you could lose the chance to do so at all. His posts urging town not to ignore his reads or get distracted by scum supports that.

[Nachomamma8]

he leaves the option open to join the Cheetory push later if he doesn't get anywhere. this is even more so the case if he had supposedly been deliberately been doing the same thing he did in the last game he had with ffery in order to reaction test her (why give up if you supposedly have a lead you've been working on?).

He has 6 players he finds scummier than Cheetory, so if he wants to justify why he's on the Cheetory wagon, he also has to justify why he's not on any of his other suspicions.

I also don't really agree with the second point in this paragraph: where has he given up on his lead?

[fferyllt]

Anen, you know what's bothered me? It's that when I caught up in that game, you had played with a lot of humor laced through your frustration about being tunneled. I don't see that here.

You don't think that its possible that stress of moving is bleeding into his play and making him less jokey than usual?

It is possible.

Do you think his scum game had a more serious tone?

You were in the anen-scum game I saw, but you didn't really cross paths. he replaced in, and you were the day 1 lynch.

And yeah, more serious tone. The other game I played with him, he replaced in on day 2 iirc, into a suspected slot that was town. he and I suspected each other all the way to the end, but managed somehow to lynch scum instead. his tone was more serious in that game, too. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=59471

Anyway, it's a decent point about rl stress, and would explain why his play feels off. My interest in hammering has waned a little. I'll figure out where I want my vote and put it down tonight.

[fferyllt]

I meant to link his scum game too: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5947

[Nachomamma8]

I think Anen needs to generate content which isn't just based around his wagon.
I also still want answers to my questions.
Because I feel like this whole "My wagon is scum and all of these people interacting with me are scum because ahhh!!!"-shtick would be easy for scum to fake.

What did you think of his most recent post?
It most certainly wasn't this.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not sure if I believe that you're town reading this. IIRC, he has made several comments of this nature but it's only this one that gives you second thoughts? I would love if you could explain this town ping that you're seeing.

Also, what do you think of Anen's similar comment(s)? Or do you think Anen's comments are different in some way?

I explained in my earlier post towards RedCoyote why I felt the way I did about it. I'm not sure that Cheetory has made comments that really explained his mindset than. he did there, but if he did, it likely didn't just ring genuine/true to me when I read it for whatever reason.

I've commented on Anen's similar comments that I think you're referring to and did refer to them as townish.