Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 1 Mafia(game over!)

[davesaz]

I know why you can't neighborize tonight.

[Titus]

I know why you can't neighborize tonight.

Wrong game?

[Thor665]

Sinsun said she couldn't be scum because scum couldn't have a role that lacked hammer power. Yet, she thinks Klingon, a role that can remove its own vote power, cannot be town. That doesn't make sense.
Sinsun has been pushing an agenda that scum only have so many mislynches left. It seems to reflect more of her mindset that she only has so many players she can safely push on.
Town Whiteknight when we have a reason to believe the player is town. Yet, I don't see that investigation and then reaching a conclusion from Sinsun.

I see some sloppy play that might be scummy, but must admit I am not remotely getting the strength of read you're getting off it.

I disagree on the order, which I have said a lot. In terms of long term game strategy, Pere is the better flip.

And I have directly challenged this concept, pointed out that your biggest reason for not lynching Klingon first is illogical.
What if I promise to support your idea of lynching Pere tomorrow if we lynch Klingon first - I mean, do you actually think Klingon is town?

I do consider your action, the actions by Y n B in InuYasha, and your actions in the game we referenced as the same. YnB technically supplemented after implying it was full shot for days. Here, PV waits forever to say oh by the way I'm two shot.

He claimed it in the same phase - if it was a different day I'd be more enraged by it, but a slow trickle of a claim made at non L-1 seems reasonable to me. Like, if he was town and had the info he claims to have - would it not have made sense to slowly reveal his info? I would have - you wouldn't?

[Thor665]

@Titus;

For my stance.

I am not of a mind to lynch Pere today.
Nor Sinsum.
I am also against lynching Suzune, Gumball, and Dave.
To my mind they are currently, if not confirmed, not viable lynch options.

So, that leaves Nero, Riabi, Klingon, and you.
Of that grouping I find Klingon by a solid margin the most suspect.
Probably you are next, with the other two lingering in the back edge.

So talk to me about lynched from that lynch pool - since you seem aware that I am basically confirmed town (or relatively close to it) as both a Cop and Pere have tried to protect me and probably at least one of them has PR info on that, not to mention my role, and my play.

So talk to me from that set - since you'll rule yourself out it gives you 3 people to find 1-2 partners to Sinsum and Pere, yeah?

[Thor665]

@Klingon - does your self stump end the day? I would presume not, if you are town, as then there is no purpose to having that ability, but I'd like you to confirm that since if I ask the Mod I'll be told it's a theory question and he'll refuse to answer.

[Titus]

@Thor,

First paragraph, agree to disagree. I think part of that may be fueled by me knowing I'm town for now.

Except you haven't. Klingon lynch =/= PerV as town, even if she is scum. I'm not townreading Klingon. The Klingon push is the same recycled push on me for the same ZOMG so many town reasons. I don't see any reason to lynch Klingon other than to prove the theory. Yet, if that's why we're lynching PerV is a better lynch.

I wouldn't have slowrolled the information. We had a huge debate about massclaim. No reveal. If his goal was to catch scum, then he'd be much better of stating I know all the roles in the game. We are massclaiming. Scum would be just as "caught" either way. They claim their real role, then they are busted. By pretending to not know anything and pushing for massclaim to find the doctor, it looks disingenous, like he's explaining why he was caught rolefishing for the doctor. The scum know all the scum roles, it's the nature of being scum. If massclaim didn't happen (as it shouldn't because only people who know Pere's town and have Pere's info should push for massclaim), then he should be aware that resistance to his plan is townie. I would have sat on the information until I had a roleblocker or a tracker claim and voted it, as PereV was in no danger of death.

[Titus]

@Titus;

For my stance.

I am not of a mind to lynch Pere today.
Nor Sinsum.
I am also against lynching Suzune, Gumball, and Dave.
To my mind they are currently, if not confirmed, not viable lynch options.

So, that leaves Nero, Riabi, Klingon, and you.
Of that grouping I find Klingon by a solid margin the most suspect.
Probably you are next, with the other two lingering in the back edge.

So talk to me about lynched from that lynch pool - since you seem aware that I am basically confirmed town (or relatively close to it) as both a Cop and Pere have tried to protect me and probably at least one of them has PR info on that, not to mention my role, and my play.

So talk to me from that set - since you'll rule yourself out it gives you 3 people to find 1-2 partners to Sinsum and Pere, yeah?

Great, you want to lynch town. *eyeroll* I don't want a me, Klingon, Riabli, you, Suzune or Dave lynch.\
I want to lynch Sinsun, PerV, Gumball, or if I stretched and there wasn't a shot in hell Nero (just because of his utter silence lately).

[davesaz]

There is one more town PR.
It's not a doctor.
Town also enjoys 2 scoops of

Vanilla

ice cream.
If Gumball is not the last PR, then the last PR can claim, and the rest can be safely lynched.

If there is a town doctor then this is a lie and PV is scum.

If no town doctor, then the scum doc saved Suzune (perhaps inadvertently) and PV is telling the truth. If he's telling the truth and is scum then it's a really ballsy truth, to have outed multiple scum roles. So I think town is much more likely.

Pedit: Thor, I have a yes/no question for you as well. Do you have a role with actions?

[davesaz]

Also, in the interest of partial disclosure, I'm claiming town neighborizor.

@Titus: no, it isn't the wrong game.

[Thor665]

Except you haven't. Klingon lynch =/= PerV as town, even if she is scum. I'm not townreading Klingon. The Klingon push is the same recycled push on me for the same ZOMG so many town reasons. I don't see any reason to lynch Klingon other than to prove the theory. Yet, if that's why we're lynching PerV is a better lynch.

The theory is well worth testing, because your theory for how scum Pere can exist becomes thinner and thinner with every scum lynch he hands us.
And I see no reason to lynch Pere other than your oddly paranoid belief that he is gaming us by hard bussing buddies.

Like, even if there's a 50/50 for Pere to be town (which you seem to believe, and is less of a chance than random) that is still a substantially higher chance for Klingon to be scum than Pere.

I wouldn't have slowrolled the information. We had a huge debate about massclaim. No reveal. If his goal was to catch scum, then he'd be much better of stating I know all the roles in the game. We are massclaiming. Scum would be just as "caught" either way. They claim their real role, then they are busted. By pretending to not know anything and pushing for massclaim to find the doctor, it looks disingenous, like he's explaining why he was caught rolefishing for the doctor. The scum know all the scum roles, it's the nature of being scum. If massclaim didn't happen (as it shouldn't because only people who know Pere's town and have Pere's info should push for massclaim), then he should be aware that resistance to his plan is townie. I would have sat on the information until I had a roleblocker or a tracker claim and voted it, as PereV was in no danger of death.

Doesn't justify the paranoia required to believe that the breadcrumb was faked ahead of time with the intention of bussing if needed, and a buss that just so happened to land on the biggest goof of a partner who slipped.

Your inability to Ockham is starting to concern me.

Great, you want to lynch town. *eyeroll* I don't want a me, Klingon, Riabli, you, Suzune or Dave lynch.\
I want to lynch Sinsun, PerV, Gumball, or if I stretched and there wasn't a shot in hell Nero (just because of his utter silence lately).

So you see Gumball and/or Nero as scumbuddy to Sinsum+Pere?

What happened to your theory possible town read of Pere after Sinsum's push on him? How do those two make sense as a team?

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count 7.01 - Up to post 4383

KlingonCelt[2]: Sinsun1, LittleGumball
Sinsun1[1]: KlingonCelt
PeregrineV[1]: Titus
Not Voting[6]: Thor665, Nero Cain, PeregrineV, Riabi, davesaz, Suzune

Mod Note: This Includes Psyche's unvote

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Day ends on August 20th at 3:40 PM USA Mountain Time or when a lynch occurs.

[Thor665]

There is one more town PR.
It's not a doctor.
Town also enjoys 2 scoops of

Vanilla

ice cream.
If Gumball is not the last PR, then the last PR can claim, and the rest can be safely lynched.

If there is a town doctor then this is a lie and PV is scum.

If no town doctor, then the scum doc saved Suzune (perhaps inadvertently) and PV is telling the truth. If he's telling the truth and is scum then it's a really ballsy truth, to have outed multiple scum roles. So I think town is much more likely.

Pedit: Thor, I have a yes/no question for you as well. Do you have a role with actions?

@Dave - I see no value in trying to rob me of that info, Pere has called me town, I'd focus on the Titus, Riabi, Nero question if I was you, myself.

@Titus - also wanted to quote this. Like, if we had a town Doc, they would know Pere was scum at this point. And they sat back and let a lynch he helped push and voted on go through on a claimed town PR. That was really terrible play for theory Doc.

How about we lynch Klingon, and if a town Doc claims or dies anytime in the near future then we can debate lynching Pere?

[Titus]

@Thor, I'm looking at the long term road, not short term. If this was a lylo decision and those were my options, I'm not sure what I would do.

PerV hasn't handed us a single scum lynch. Hermit imploded. Plus, all scum need is one player left alive at the end.

Your inability to think long term is frankly startling but not alignment indicative as Persivul did the same thing in Mafia Dating Game. I was chastised for wanting the guaranteed scum flip. Here, I want the game breaking flip. If PerV does flip town (which I doubt he will), then we lynch Klingon and massclaim.

Occam's Razor says you get the facts and not assumptions. The assumptions PereV wants are convinent, but they are assumptions, just like Walking Dead.

It's easy to vote with the guy who kisses your ass.

[Titus]

There is one more town PR.
It's not a doctor.
Town also enjoys 2 scoops of

Vanilla

ice cream.
If Gumball is not the last PR, then the last PR can claim, and the rest can be safely lynched.

If there is a town doctor then this is a lie and PV is scum.

If no town doctor, then the scum doc saved Suzune (perhaps inadvertently) and PV is telling the truth. If he's telling the truth and is scum then it's a really ballsy truth, to have outed multiple scum roles. So I think town is much more likely.

Pedit: Thor, I have a yes/no question for you as well. Do you have a role with actions?

@Dave - I see no value in trying to rob me of that info, Pere has called me town, I'd focus on the Titus, Riabi, Nero question if I was you, myself.

@Titus - also wanted to quote this. Like, if we had a town Doc, they would know Pere was scum at this point. And they sat back and let a lynch he helped push and voted on go through on a claimed town PR. That was really terrible play for theory Doc.

How about we lynch Klingon, and if a town Doc claims or dies anytime in the near future then we can debate lynching Pere?

@Thor, you see that you don't like Dave fishing you for info. Nor do I. Yet, PerV's claim (gee all the PRs that have claimed are town) seems structured to get the last PR to claim and get information out that way. Claiming is bad. Let's not help scum anymore than we already have.

[Thor665]

Occam's Razor says you get the facts and not assumptions. The assumptions PereV wants are convinent, but they are assumptions, just like Walking Dead.

Ockham's razor is about assessing assumptions.

Yours require vastly more contrivance than mine, and are thus ruled less likely.
Then you sit around with a paranoid theory and act like I'm playing badly because I don't want to test it first over the more likely reality with a razor thin debate as to why it would even be better in any case.

[Thor665]

@Thor, you see that you don't like Dave fishing you for info. Nor do I. Yet, PerV's claim (gee all the PRs that have claimed are town) seems structured to get the last PR to claim and get information out that way. Claiming is bad. Let's not help scum anymore than we already have.

I am not pushing for further claims - I'm pushing for further lynches or stumpings.

[Titus]

Occam's Razor says you get the facts and not assumptions. The assumptions PereV wants are convinent, but they are assumptions, just like Walking Dead.

Ockham's razor is about assessing assumptions.

Yours require vastly more contrivance than mine, and are thus ruled less likely.
Then you sit around with a paranoid theory and act like I'm playing badly because I don't want to test it first over the more likely reality with a razor thin debate as to why it would even be better in any case.

No. Mine requires no assumptions.

Zero posts. PV claims if he's town, here's the setup. Klingon claims Town Treestump. (Here's a hint, that should be enough to discuss lynching Pere without a doctor claiming).

Just do a punnet. Take out the prior lynches (which PV never really pushed, even after Constantine slipped, he still wanted me lynched).

[Titus]

Motivations are not a part. Just break the game. To do that, it's lynching PV not Klingon.

[Thor665]

Your way requires that Pere, as scum, breadcrumbed multiple town roles, and a single scum role and called them all scum, knowing that the scum would not kill those town PRs but would end up bussing that scum PR.

Hint: that's actually a pretty big assumption and you have not justified that belief beyond paranoia - I would love to hear more concrete theories about his gameplan going into that one.

[Thor665]

Your way requires that Pere, as scum, breadcrumbed multiple town roles, and a single scum role and called them all scum, knowing that the scum would not kill those town PRs but would end up bussing that scum PR.

And also he did it as a way to arrange a single mislynch (for the cost of two scum) and theory out a Doc to boot...maybe (presuming they hadn't already killed the Doc, which he had called scum in the post)

[Titus]

@Thor, Day 1 I subbed into a boned scum slot. The only people I fingered as scum were my buddies. One buddy was lynched the next day, the other coasted to victory after my death. I'm fully open to PV doing the same stunt when things get to be more difficult for the scumteam at this point. If I am capable of it, so is scum.

I can't give a specific concrete theory regarding which players are scum beyond Suinsun and PereV are likely buddies but Suinsun leaves me open that she's a godfather type scum. *shrug* If we're so trusting of PV, PV should out what the final town PR is. If no one is that role, we lynch PV.

[davesaz]

What's a punnet?

I assume the first para of 4395 is talking about a completed game for reference?

VOTE: KlingonCelt
I like this approach. If PV is lying, we avoid hitting any unclaimed roles, and if he's telling the truth we lynch scum.

[Sinsun1]

So Daves is now on board, Titus still doesn't see that Thor is letting him dig himself deeper into the hole he's made for himself already, once Thor and PereV place their votes, we literally just need Suzune for scum Kling lynch.

I wont even bother debating with Titus further, Thor is already picking him apart and it's hilarious for me to watch it when Titus doesn't realize what's going on. He's being backed further and further into a corner that he can not escape without admitting to his faulty logic today.

Anyway, Daves, do you see what I've been getting at this whole time when you look at the back and forth between Titus and Thor. Notice she tries to threaten Thor with scumreading him at one point. XD Thor can do as he pleases, we have 4 town plus you most likely who will not even touch him.

Actually I lied, I will address Titus once more, but with my question about the doc again.

@Titus, why would the doc be on me or Thor? How does that make any logical sense from a town perspective when we had a known town PR alive?

Anyway, I am off to work in 90 mins. Kling will probably treestump before his lynch, but oh well, his vote will be out of the game leaving 2 scum left. I like how this is drawing to an end and they're still clinging onto hope of besting us.

I also note that Riabi and Nero have been both pretty quiet today. It's interesting because if I am right about Titus being scum which I am pretty certain about, then one of them is town and one of them is mafia. Yet they're both dead silent today.

[Titus]

@DaveAZ, yes I don't talk about ongoing.

A punnet square is where you take all four possibilities and line them into a chart. I'm using two charts because I don't get how to do vertical labeling.. For instance a punnet for PV Klingon looks like this FMPOV.

Lynch PV

PV Town
Klingon town	Klingon scum
Impossible unless PV is lying town, which is revealed by his flip	We get a scum flip tomorrow and confirm PV's setup is true

PV Scum
Klingon town	Klingon scum
We mislynch KT, confirm PV as full of shit.	PV looks like he's bussing but sneaks past us.

Lynch Klingon

Klingon Town
PV town	PV scum
Impossible unless PV is lying town	We get a scum flip tomorrow and confirm PV's setup is bullshit

Klingon Scum
PV town	Klingon scum
We get a scumflip, PV's setup is unknown to be true	Could be dual bus.

[Sinsun1]

Cool story, bro. Still not getting PereV lynch today. Today it's Kling, there's no way around it. We're getting sure scum today.