512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[Metal Sonic]

VOTE: wingback

This player is below the bar

Uhh, Wingback is the bar.

Why didn't you vote him when you reached the conclusion that everyone else was town? (Right before I voted you).

I paused for dramatic effect.


BA-DUM-TSS!

[AngryPidgeon]

Vote Count 1.5

Firebringer(2) - EspeciallyTheLies, Kaboose
Wingback(2) - Metal Sonic, Firebringer
Kaboose(1) - sthar8
Metal Sonic(1) - Polar Vortex

Not Voting(2): Sekai no Ki, Wingback

-----------

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

(expired on 2015-08-21 12:00:00)

Something's wrong.
What is it?
I don't know, I feel weird, like I want to spend more time with you even though I know we just had sex.

-Bojack and Wanda

FIXED LAST VOTE COUNT

[AngryPidgeon]

Metal sonic is being modkilled for stealing my pagetop.

/s

[Polar Vortex]

Kisai, I think Wingback is suspectex by two people but mostly everybody else has a strongish town read there

[Metal Sonic]

Metal sonic is being modkilled for stealing my pagetop.

/s

BA-DUM-TSS!

[sekai no ki]

Reading back through the game with the idea that scum weren't sure what to make of Wisdom's etl push, except that Wisdom himself was town. I'm using my own reaction as a sort of yardstick: I thought that Wisdom might simply be trying to force a wagon on etl to get a readable reaction from her if he was town. I was curious what she might have done in her 2 page 1 posts that provoked such a strong scumread if that's what it was. I wondered if scum-Wisdom would do something like this to play to his tunnely town meta.

49

I don't really understand the fuss about 22. Seems fine and the same reaction I got from firebringer


-Bearbert head

polar vortex seems to ignore the page or so of back and forth between wisdom and etl at this point, to focus on Wingback's scumread of Kaboose. he says he doesn't see the reason for interpreting kaboose's post that way. Which is cool. But the elephant in the room is Wisdom's scumread of etl which had even less reason.

ETL's 51 gives me townfeels because she's so certain that she's done nothing to prompt more than an RVS vote. She's not wondering what she did to attract his attention. She's confident she's done nothing.

64 by polar vortex once again feels off. he's calling ETL scummy for her overreaction to Wisdom. It didn't feel like an overreaction to me at the time. My question at that point was still "If wisdom is town, what did he see or what is he trying to accomplish?" But, meta. I know ETL has strong negative reactions to players pushing her at times (thinking about an open game modded by Broseidon a while back where scum-notsci tunneled her and she eventually replaced out. My gif-hydra replaced in to her slot.). So maybe this point by polar vortex isn't so bad,.

I like firebringer's 72. 72 he's clearly evaluating both sides of the etl/wisdom argument, however effectively/not.

71 Wisdom asked polar vortex to vote ETL with him since Polar said her reaction to wisdom's push looked scummy. he declines:

wanna vote her?

Not especially, don't think wagoning her would give us more info. We've seen the reactions we need. More votes would mean more of the same.

Would rather wagon

VOTE: Firebringer

I like wingback's question in 76, trying to sort ETL's reason for voting Wisdom.

Aaaand polar vortex's post in 79 agreeing with Kaboose that a wisdom/etl scumteam makes sense because it pings as bussing. This stuff is bothering me more and more. he's scumreading etl but voting firebringer, even though he thinks the etl/wisdom stuff looks like bussing.

Then in 81 I *think* this is snowstorm. he states he thinks etl isn't scummy and is suspicious of Wisdom. If it's not snowstorm, it's an awesomely huge disconnect on the other head's part and I don't see how the same player could even say this 2 points down from the bussing comment.

The next stuff that hits the thread is the back and forth between wisdom and kaboose about kaboose's meta reasons for thinking wisdom could be scum. At the time, I thought this looked bad and was thinking we might vote him once pie and I synched. It still looks bad, though kinda fits kaboose's playstyle and apparent experience that he'd jump to different = scummy without thinking that the difference is from scum-Wisdom games he's played.

I like everything about Wingback's 91, catching the disconnect in polar vortex' stance, and also revealing that his reason for scumreading kaboose both makes a lot of sense and also on retrospect given his roleclaim points up why kaboose was scumreading firebringer.

98 by polar vortex makes some sense of the disconnects in scumread vs vote. The one ping here is that he's apparently using a post-hoc townread by snowstorm to justify his not wanting to vote ETL earlier for reactions.

Firebringer in 101 brings up a scum game he played and won. As an aside in that game, he fake-claimed and rode the claim to a win. As a further and less relevant aside, this was some of the basis for him scumreading the entire set of 3 players involved in the gambit in our earlier game. here, he'd have to expect the title character would be in the game. The only scum-motive I can see for how he kept referring to the flavor to a degree that Wingback thought it was a crumb and kaboose thought it was rolefishing is exactly that - to prompt a reaction from whoever had the role.

This is roughly the point in the game where MS asked about hydraing with titus. I like his reaction to pie scumreading him for it, though he's glossing over the fact that pirate mollie was right about his play in the earlier game.

I thought polar vortex's 120 pointing up it would be rude to post a private communication in the game seemed strange - like my concern was about outside influences at that point, not whether posting a screenshot of the pm would offend titus. I'm not sure it's a scummy reaction, though, and I'm starting to feel like I'm reading their posts with a bias. I had a mild townread on them before I started the reread with a focus on looking at off-feeling reactions to the etl/wisdom thing.

MS suspecting Wisdom in 126 feels pretty townish in light of Wisdom's flip. The whole problem with wisdom's push was that there wasn't an in-thread basis for his read that explained his certainty. I also like his vote on polar vortex given how I'm feeling about this reread.

Sthar8's post in 150 is surface-good. Things I worry about are how he assumes town v town in the ETL/Wisdom thing. a hypothetical scum-Sthar8 would have to townread etl I think if she's town, and would know that Wisdom is town. When this post hit the thread, I assumed stronger knowledge of both ETL and Wisdom than I have. Though my experience with both of them is middlin deep, we haven't played many games together given how long all three of us have been on site.

This is the point at which Wisdom lets us know the basis of the ETL read.

I want to go through this with particular care. Which will happen in about an hour and a half when I'm done with a PT appt.

[Polar Vortex]

Oh, 81 is definetly by Snowstorm. I think I can explain my read: I originally assumed Wisdom ususlly pushes people on D1. I thought that was a personality trait so wasn't particularily interested in it. Then I saw the overreaction, but I preffered not to vote there since I think Snow had mentioned he had played with her before and wanted his opinion. Also, I didn't think a ETL wagon would give us information(which I assumed was the reason Wisdom wanted her wagoned). Then Snowstorm told me ETL plays a bit like Tammy and that what I thought was an overreaction was quite normal. After this I didn't have a scumread on her anymore. Also, the point I agreed with kaboose about looking like bussing was more of a "if ond of them flips scum, look at the other" rather than" I suspect them because she looks like a wisdom partner". And I never use a partnership read before having at least one scum flip

Oh, and I thought posting a screenshot on thread was rude not to Titus, but in general as it would bring outside info into the thread(basicslly what you said)

Makes sense?

[Polar Vortex]

Oh, and to me that interaction looked like bussing to me because I faked something like that with my scumpartner the last game I've played.

[Wingback]

Kaboose is town. I don't buy that the flavor confirms him as town and I also don't think he's making up his role regardless of his alignment.

Well one flat out claimed cop. The other softed at a possible ability that, who knows? could be a cop-ish ability.

So being that I'm a "Bojack of All Trades" and thinking to myself "Hey Bojackaboose, that's a really terrible nickname." and also feeling like usually a "Jack of All Trades" role gets a cop check... I would have to assume one of the two are lying.

This part though is pretty much exactly how I'd expect town in his position to react. It also matches up perfectly with his Post 433 where he suspects both Metal Sonic and Firebringer. I also thought Firebringer's posts to Metal were townish and I can buy that there's an investigative role in Firebringer and a sort of delayed Jack-of-all-Trades in Kaboose.

---

Metal Sonic is lying.

UNVOTE:

So kaboose is conftown

This is nearly the opposite reaction to Kaboose's claim that I'd expect town in his place to have. At the very least, he's town lying about his role. At worst, he's just scum.

If the read is "many words = town" then some reflecting must be done

This is a misrep of Polar's read on me. Polar never implied in Post 576 that the number of words I wrote affected his read on me at all.

---

Firebringer's reaction is a bit more ambiguous. He unvotes Kaboose based on the claim but promptly sheeps Metal Sonic to vote me. I still think his earlier reaction in Post 292 was town though and his unvote and sheeping Sonic onto me feels more like it is coming from a player with poor concept of game balance. I also have a few other theories that delve more into his possible mindset. I feel like he was singled out by ETL/Sthar8/Polar critisizing him. That's probably why he latched onto Metal Sonic when the latter approached him in an unassuming manner and had a bit of random conversation and played up Firebringer's abilities before throwing a vote down on me and followed up with a few jokes. A point of concern was that in Post 546, he seems very unsure about who the scum were and names several players but when Polar starts questioning him on his vote for me, he responds by calling Polar bad and seems very sure of himself when his vote was simply a sheep of Sonic's.

But

I think if Firebringer was scum, he may not have voted me at all. Why vote a player who at that time was a concensus townread and townreading him? Metal's scum motive is plausible since he'd know that with Kaboose's claim, I'd default to attacking him next so it could be pre-emptive but Fire's vote is more of a towntell.

Tl;dr

- Firebringer might be town but I'm not entirely sure.

Sonic if not lying

is definitely town.

In the games you've played in the past, is it common to have an abundance of power roles? Your entertaining the possibility in the bolded is what's throwing me off. I can buy "Metal Sonic is lying town" but I have a hard time seeing how from your POV, you believe he isn't lying.

---

My townread on Polar Vortex got stronger over last nights posting when he was talking over his reads on me with Metal Sonic/Firebringer and as I read, I wanted to ask questions to Sonic and Fire but then saw that Polar was asking exactly what was on my mind (Post 547, Post 566, Post 572, Post 582).

[Wingback]

Curious to go see if Kaboose had a marked reaction when the claim occurred.

He didn't. I can see his continued pushing of Kaboose being from town that believes there's a JOAT + Cop in the game after Sonic's claim and thinking that Firebringer is the odd one out. He puts Metal Sonic as a scumread in Post 433 though so that matches up.

---

I also have stuff to say about Sekai and their two walls but I'd rather wait for them to finish catching up fully first. I do have another question for Sekai: what did you think my read on Wisdom was during the time he was in the game? You seem to be townreading me and didn't have an issue with my play around Wisdom's ETL push so I'm interested in hearing what you thought my read on Wisdom was and why.

[sekai no ki]

Okay I'm just going to say it because I will look stupid and probably suspicious pushing ETL like this if I don't. I should have replaced out, and I am sorry that I didn't, but too late now.

See this? I made it because I caught ETL reading and replying to a private topic since we started confirming for this game and onwards.

timestamps please

This seemed off at the time and it still feels off. My first thought when I saw wisdom's post was that the game was possibly broken.

In 164, he catches on and agrees with sthar8 that the game might he broken.

From here, the game pauses, waiting for AP to decide what to do.

I have a theory about the timestamps question. Will keep it to myself for now.

There's not a whole lot I want to say here beyond this. I'm trying to develop reads from reactions, but this event is pretty much off limits to us, and rightly so.

[sekai no ki]

let me reread everything so far.

i would probably be fine with no lynch but i don't know what we would get out of that except for saving us another day. we need information going into night.

be back in a minute

Why did you think you'd be ok with no lynch?

Metal Sonic's 212 and 213 one minute later bother me. he thought ETL needed to be modkilled (which suggests he thinks her alignment was made obvious to the point of confirmed, which suggests he knows her alignment) and then an immediate, within the minute reversal. Makes me wonder if he realized that from an uninformed pov her alignment isn't made obvious.

213 - I liked etl's quote stripe catch up. I liked the points she chose to follow up on.

The no lynch vs not argument annoys me as much this time around as it did originally.

firebringer, what does wisdom's flip tell you about other players?

Tells me Kaboose jumped from null to scum for me.

Why was this? Post 246 does not explain why he jumped to scum for you at that point.

271 is the closest thing to an explanation for his kaboose scumread that I've seen so far.

Are you just going to soft all the characters in the show?

Why is this suspicious by itself rather than just annoying?

This is mafia, everything is clue of someone's guilt or innocence.

I have seen people get lunched because of their spelling and grammar before.
We don't need to make sense!!!!

Stop questioning it!!!

This post feels at odds with his earlier post about getting enough info from Wisdom's flip to no lynch. If everything is a clue, why throw the rest of this game day away?

I like firebringer's 296. his demeanor this game is so different from our first game that it makes me worry, but this post is good pushback at MS.

MS's claim bugs me. I know he fake claims a lot as town and I hate it. This time, his exchanges that result in town reads feel shallow. I especially felt that way about his townreading me though it's further along in the thread.

ETL is town, don't waste the investigation on her

No, I'm not sure. Her play is still town. Still, there are lots of people who are blank spots. Who would be much better targets. Like really, the only reason for this is to avoid a policy lynch that we weren't doing in the first place. Her explanation is fine and natural to me

Who were the blank spots?

Overall I like the feel of these two posts.

And well, from Sonic's pov who would be a blank spot? Us or the other hydra(well, they are a blank spot for me at least). She's said we're suspicious with no explanation whatsoever.

Why would you eliminate all the other players from being blank spots? Do you have reads on the rest of the playerlist?

I had to go back and reread some of the exchange when I saw this, but I think wingback made a faulty assumption here.

I'm not bought by firebringer. Think the defence of him is "too bad to be scum" which is almost always bullshit imo.

What do you make of his reaction to Metal Sonic's claim?

It kinda looked like a non-reaction.

342 is another town-feeling post from polar vortex. The excitement about catching a scumslip paired with caution about the vote count.

The rhetorical tapdancing by MS in reply to etl that starts on page 15 annoys me and I want to scumread MS for it because his side of it is not about clearing the air and getting to a mutual understanding of what he meant in voting kaboose for comic effect. I'm not sure how much of the scumread is annoyance based. But, recently I've found that when MS annoys me, he's probably scum (the FF10 large theme game and the Team Mafia vanilla nightless game come to mind).

[Metal Sonic]

<3

[sekai no ki]

Can you talk more about this? I have my own issues with Metal Sonic but I feel like a lot of your recent posts have been commentary without really involving yourself in it, seem cagey and away from the major arguments in the thread. Mostly I'd like the background between you and Metal Sonic that is resulting in the type of posting you are making towards each other.

MS makes a big deal about me being easier to read than my hydra partners and he's correctly townread me in several of my recent games, including a mini theme game where I had a terrible start and never really recovered. his comment to me about not having a townread reminded me of the Team Mafia vanilla nightless where found fault with Nachomamma8's supposed lack of towniness and told him I needed to enter the game and town it up or something. Nacho was bleeding town in that game, and scum-Metal Sonic really needed to get him lynched. I feel like he was thinking about attempting something similar here.

When we had an exchange a day or so later, talked about nothing pertaining to my reads, and he called me town after that really bothered me, especially since I was saying words that I wanted to feel, but didn't feel right then in that moment. There was no way I felt sincere enough about having joy in a town role PM to convince anyone. A town role PM is awesome, but it doesn't offset that this game has been marred by a modkill and littered with insults, and lots and lots and lots of people talking past each other, not answering questions, etc. This game is a slog. And MS is part of the reason why. And he's a decent enough player not to be intentionally adding to the slog unless it's to his advantage to do so.

[Metal Sonic]

Correctly townreading you is easy when you roll town every single game I play with you ffery

[Metal Sonic]

I just wanted to see if you rolled scum for once

[sekai no ki]

that's sweet and all but it doesn't address my concerns about your play.

[Metal Sonic]

Well how should I address them then?

[sekai no ki]

The last time I told you to pull up your socks you were scum.

I don't know.

I want to talk to pie.

[Metal Sonic]

When was the last time we played? Forest fire? Fun game )



Aaaaaand hito was the one who actually did the obvtowning

[sekai no ki]

The time before that was Smite. Which was during/after the Whedon game.

[Metal Sonic]

I was town in both.

[sekai no ki]

correct. and you were not town in FF10 or in the vanilla nightless (which felt like I was playing too because Nacho and I talked about both our games a lot, in real time). I"m comparing you here to those games as well as our most recent ones.

[sekai no ki]

<3

this is not a good thing.

if you keep playing like this, i will lynch you and you will have no right to say that "i can't read you anymore" because the only reason it happened was because you were deliberately playing anti-town as town. so, quit fucking around or get lynched

[Metal Sonic]

correct. and you were not town in FF10 or in the vanilla nightless (which felt like I was playing too because Nacho and I talked about both our games a lot, in real time). I"m comparing you here to those games as well as our most recent ones.

That's no fair!!