Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Empire]

DAY 3, VOTECOUNT 2

notscience (1)

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Vinkah

Nachomamma8 (1)

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Wickedestjr

Vinkah (1)

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RedCoyote

Not Voting (6)

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Tammy, Nachomamma8, fferyllt, notscience, implosion, pieguyn

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch! Deadline is on August 29th at 9:40 AM EST or in (expired on 2015-08-29 09:39:56).

Mod Notes - N/A

[notscience]

I want more of a response to the end of the day than "the fuck"

I also am fine with a massclaim.

[Tammy]

Implosion - on phone not gonna quote. No me not understanding your surprise at the night kill has nothing to do with you not getting my setup spec I hadn't said yet, it just seems like common sense.

If you are the vig you say you are, heck even if you're the sk,

mafia missed their kill night one

which is bad for them. It makes sense that that would be their priority for the nightkill. And since they are the ones who knew who they tried to kill, they could narrow down the most likely culprit.

Why did you think we'd be in mylo today if your kill went through? Am I wrong on numbers?

[pieguyn]

I want more of a response to the end of the day than "the fuck"

I also am fine with a massclaim.

I hadn't read it in-depth when I posted that. sleep is a hell of a drug.

now that I have, I think your reasons for pushing her were, put bluntly, god-awful. I will comment more on this if it's still relevant after massclaim.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, the other game I was in just ended. It ironically had a 2-shot vig and a town rolecop (plus a gunsmith) against a mafia watcher who automatically watched the scum kill, and a doctor.

So yeah, 2-shot vig + rolecop might mean there's a scum doctor.

Shoot. Scum doctor ruins my idea too. Forget it, too risky.

[implosion]

I'm guessing your idea was to no-lynch?

@Tammy, if I missed a shot last night we'd have 8 alive and (presumably) 3 scum. Should be mylo.

[implosion]

If the idea was to no-lynch, then it is actually possibly useful.

If we see a scum doctor or roleblocker flip later. Of course it's possible that they have both but unlikely.

For now I agree it's too risky.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm guessing your idea was to no-lynch?

Almost. My idea was that we play out the day normally up until somebody wants to cast a hammer vote. Then we no-lynch and tell you to shoot the person that we were going to lynch. If there's no roleblocker/doctor and you are really a vigilante, then we don't lose any lynches by handing power off to you - but we do confirm you as town. I'd be comfortable assuming no role blocker, but scum could very well have a mafia doctor. So I don't think this could work right now.

But now that you mention it, if we lynch a scum doctor today, there's no reason why we can't try this tomorrow. Doctor + RB seems like an even greater stretch.

[notscience]

1) Okay, I now have no reservations. Pie is scum. The end of the day is the first time I've really been *into* the game. I can understand her misreading me throughout the rest of the game. Not then. That's bullshit. Especially when I KNOW she is big on actually reading the thread and understanding what is going on- if she was ACTUALLY town she would see Tammy's blowing what I say way out of proportion and me trying to explain that and work with her is something town-me would do. Also, this is me redacting my prior redaction that she needs to see some time in the limelight when I flip town.

2) I've been toying with the idea that someone who claimed lied, my first inclination would be implo.

fery

- iirc you said something about his crumb being day 2. Was that true? I'm rather bothered by it. Mainly because I don't see all scum in the unclaimed thus far, it clears way too many people. Especially considering that we have yet to see two kills on a night, I have no inclination to believe his claim at the moment.

3) In my prior thought, I realized I have no idea what a scumteam would look like vs a jk, a rolecop, and a miller. Maybe all vanilla, maybe an encryptor, like one role that can *actually* be caught by a rolecop and some roles that are completely innocuous.

4) I didn't like RC's wall regarding vinkah. We were laying a lot of the groundwork for a vinkah push today, but he feels the need to present a case for something we had all been heavily considering. If implo is telling the truth, he's who I'd look to next. Tammy's felt legitimate in the way she claimed, obviously S-S was the jk so there's no denying. I'm just not sure I like him waiting to claim rather than the obvious come out with it at the start, but this is a playstyle difference that doesn't really mean anything.

5) Today's lynch should be Vinkah. Tomorrow's should be pie. I don't think Nacho/pie are scum together because I think both would have steamrolled things rather than the way they have been, but I understand activity is a part of this, but they both aren't scum which means nacho is probably town.

[Wickedestjr]

Doesn't look like there's any opposition to mass claim. How do we want to do this?

Tammy is still the most townish looking player right now. I'm fine with her choosing the order or starting a popcorn...

I will happily start if we can't get the ball rolling on this soon.

[notscience]

Another big issue I have with an implo-vig is that looking at layla's iso, her last readspost said she's townreading everyone sans me (who I know is town), nacho, pie, and anen. That makes me think she would have targetted one of us. I'm definitely not a high priority scumkill. Nacho, maybe, but I would expect that from tammy-scum, which doesn't appear to be true. Pie, maybe. If implo *is* a vig I would anticipate that pie was the jk target. Pie was the only one out of us 3 that really seemed a consistent read for her- Layla mentioned her earlier when she called anen out on not noting her shadowing everyone. She only mentions me twice, once when she says she'll call me magic and once when she says I'm not her townread. None of her nacho stances look solid until that point.

[implosion]

fery- iirc you said something about his crumb being day 2. Was that true? I'm rather bothered by it.

Why did you wait until day 2 to crumb?

I crumbed near the end of day 1.

In particular it was here (bolding added):

It's probably just time for this to happen.

VOTE: Anen

That's L-1.

Idk what to make of Anen's most recent post, but I feel like this is just the correct lynch at this point given the claim and ~apathy~. I think more information to work with will help fix the overarching feeling of meh that has been discussed.

V

inkah mentioned agreeing with me on this, but I'm also not sure why there's still speculation about multiball, although I guess it's mostly just Anen's post.

I

don't feel like we can get information about the setup from a broad feeling of the day dragging on or whatever.

G

ood scum will be able to fake real scumhunting regardless of whether or not it's multiball.

[fferyllt]

she may have tried for a protect rather than a block. that's my jk strategy usually on n1

[implosion]

Another big issue I have with an implo-vig is that looking at layla's iso, her last readspost said she's townreading everyone sans me (who I know is town), nacho, pie, and anen. That makes me think she would have targetted one of us. I'm definitely not a high priority scumkill. Nacho, maybe, but I would expect that from tammy-scum, which doesn't appear to be true. Pie, maybe. If implo *is* a vig I would anticipate that pie was the jk target. Pie was the only one out of us 3 that really seemed a consistent read for her- Layla mentioned her earlier when she called anen out on not noting her shadowing everyone. She only mentions me twice, once when she says she'll call me magic and once when she says I'm not her townread. None of her nacho stances look solid until that point.

Why is this a problem with me-vig? If you think pie is scum, couldn't pie be scum who made the kill n1?

[implosion]

I might just be completely misunderstanding 1885.

[fferyllt]

I want more of a response to the end of the day than "the fuck"

I also am fine with a massclaim.

I hadn't read it in-depth when I posted that. sleep is a hell of a drug.

now that I have, I think your reasons for pushing her were, put bluntly, god-awful. I will comment more on this if it's still relevant after massclaim.

What posts of notsci's are you talking about here?

[notscience]

I'm not sure how it all fits together implo.

I'm trying to put pieces together.

[RedCoyote]

vote: notscience

this would be the direction i would want to go today.

It would be nice if you elaborated on this. Are you not voting me because of my claim? Has notscience done anything in the past ~8 pages to change your read on him (apparently not, but why not)?

i'm super fucking busy and if i'm prod dodging or whatever to stay in this game that has zero to do with my fucking alignment.

This doesn't necessarily mean [Vinkah] has a scum alignment

For only reading one point, you sure didn't read it too closely.

Another thing, active lurking is a real thing. So, you know, I tried to bring that point up as calmly and matter-of-factly as I could, but I anticipated you'd push back on this one in particular.

the miller and rolecop together as town don't make sense (unless empire is fucking with us)

This was the entire point of Tammy's claim and posts at the end of yesterday. Presumably you skipped over them because you have no inclination nor need to try and figure out other players' alignments.

Further, if you thought these claims didn't make much sense, shouldn't this further validate your scumread on me from yesterday (or shouldn't you be pushing Tammy)?

don't give me shit about being busy and quantifying with shit like broken promises

*shrug*

I have no problem being the bad guy. Someone has to call you out for actively lurking through practically all of D2, busy or no. If Wicked or notscience or whoever wants to get on me for being too mean about it, so be it. I'm saying what needs to be said. If you're scum, this benefits you. If you're town, it hurts the town. Period.

like, the more i resfastskim his post i feel like rc is describing a person's playstyle that he is unfamiliar with rather than someone he thinks is actually scum.

Then it makes no sense for you not to be voting me. This is classic misdirection. "rc is so fucking scummy u guys need to vote him....... vote: notscience"

---

Though Red - I don't feel like I've been robotic. I have been trying to take some suspicion on me a bit more rationally or lightly, especially if it's something I might understand, in an attempt to keep the drama from getting very toxic though I don't exactly think it's my fault if noone creates drama with me and I don't know why it's a problem if I don't create drama with someone, especially since I'm very good at creating drama as scum anyway. I also didn't feel like I was whining or crying about my meta or being busy. It's not just this game; it's a shift that's been happening this year, and I have been explaining it as I've been getting concerns - one of which I did in a recent game with notscience in which I explicitly said it was an explanation for that game and any future games - so it did concern me that he wasn't taking that game into account. The fact of the matter is that I think a lot of the reason I got so easily town read is because I had a lot of time at one point to be extremely active and because I was and very engaged, I got town read very easily. Changes in my life over the course of the year means I don't have the time for that anymore. It's a good thing! But it has meant that I've had to shift my approach for games. So, when I've explained it in one game, I flip town, I expect that that would be some type of consideration for how to read me, not just expect that I'm going to suddenly act just like I used to a year ago. I don't know if that makes sense.

You don't need to get into all that, babe. I think you're town now.

Btw, what was your N1 report? I went through your posts again and I can't find it. Did you say already?

It does seem kind of harsh to put an SK and a role cop together in the same setup, doesn't it?

---

Also BTW, if the role cop visits a Mafia Goon, the result is "Vanilla"

Is this standard? I always assumed they'd see goon. This makes sense, but then I would have to think the scumteam didn't have any real power.

I've been thinking and I have an idea for how we can confirm implosion as not-mafia, but it only works if scum don't have a role blocker. So I'm curious what you guys believe...

I don't know that we have to prove it. The proof is in two NKs. I'm less inclined to believe implosion as an SK post-Tammy claim than I am prior to it, however. It just strikes me as unfair unless somehow implosion has a protection from it (but then that really weakens Tammy's role in a way that doesn't make sense to me).

---

It would make sense if (like me) he thought Tammy was going to die, and he was hoping that I was going to shoot.

This is a good point. I hadn't considered this.

I'm guessing your idea was to no-lynch?

I hate this idea.

Some of y'all might not be trusting your instincts enough. I know most of you to be top notch Mafia players here. Not trying to dote on you, just laying it out there. I'm town, Tammy is town, Wicked is town, notscience is town, ffrey is town. implosion shouldn't be lynched today (and setup spec points to town). I

think

pie is town, but I'm willing to delve a bit deeper there. Still, I think we should table her for today.

That doesn't leave very many people to lynch from.

---

But now that you mention it, if we lynch a scum doctor today, there's no reason why we can't try this tomorrow. Doctor + RB seems like an even greater stretch.

I could be game for this, however. I like the idea of a scum doctor in this setup, btw. That's good thinking. I only wished we'd have massclaimed prior to you and implosion talking this out, lol.

---

4) I didn't like RC's wall regarding vinkah. We were laying a lot of the groundwork for a vinkah push today, but he feels the need to present a case for something we had all been heavily considering. If implo is telling the truth, he's who I'd look to next. Tammy's felt legitimate in the way she claimed, obviously S-S was the jk so there's no denying. I'm just not sure I like him waiting to claim rather than the obvious come out with it at the start, but this is a playstyle difference that doesn't really mean anything.

You know, I thought someone might come after me from an opportunism angle, I was just hoping it would've been someone like Nacho so I could pounce on him for it. I can't do it with you because I know you're town now.

Think of it this way, ns. I was onto Vinkah wayyyy before anyone else was. This case was not arrived at as an effect of what anyone else said against him at the end of D2. I suspected him way before that. I can point to evidence of this (but I think you know this is the case).

Additionally, it's almost a PoE thing for me at this point. I have too many townreads for it not to be.

One last thing: I'm town, deal with it.

5) Today's lynch should be Vinkah. Tomorrow's should be pie. I don't think Nacho/pie are scum together because I think both would have steamrolled things rather than the way they have been, but I understand activity is a part of this, but they both aren't scum which means nacho is probably town.

I maintain pie is town, but I am willing to table that townread should the following events take place 1) we lynch Nacho or Vinkah today and they flip scum 2) pie is not killed over night.

It would make a lot of sense in my head is pie were to be scum, that's for sure.

[notscience]

I think if nacho/pie were scum they would have strongarmed this game.

One of them is, yes.

Not both.

[fferyllt]

I think if nacho/pie were scum they would have strongarmed this game.

One of them is, yes.

Not both.

This is probably true.

[RedCoyote]

I think if nacho/pie were scum they would have strongarmed this game.

One of them is, yes.

Not both.

This is probably true.

We can cross that bridge when we come to it, but y'all need to look long at hard at the remaining players in this game after today.

[pieguyn]

1) Okay, I now have no reservations. Pie is scum. The end of the day is the first time I've really been *into* the game. I can understand her misreading me throughout the rest of the game. Not then. That's bullshit. Especially when I KNOW she is big on actually reading the thread and understanding what is going on- if she was ACTUALLY town she would see Tammy's blowing what I say way out of proportion and me trying to explain that and work with her is something town-me would do. Also, this is me redacting my prior redaction that she needs to see some time in the limelight when I flip town.

LOL

vote: notscience

give me a second and i'll explain why you're spouting bullshit here

[pieguyn]

1) Okay, I now have no reservations. Pie is scum. The end of the day is the first time I've really been *into* the game. I can understand her misreading me throughout the rest of the game. Not then. That's bullshit. Especially when I KNOW she is big on actually reading the thread and understanding what is going on- if she was ACTUALLY town she would see Tammy's blowing what I say way out of proportion and me trying to explain that and work with her is something town-me would do. Also, this is me redacting my prior redaction that she needs to see some time in the limelight when I flip town.

First off, you know just as well as I do that you're more than capable of getting "into" games as scum and have demonstrated as much on several occasions (and have acknowledged as much *in this game*). So you trying to push that oh my god you're town and people should be able to see it after it is disingenuous as fuck.

Second, no, Tammy did not "blow what you say way out of proportion", and you pushing that she did reads like blatant manipulation. In the first place, you shouldn't have thought her being a non-factor in this game was a reason to be concerned about her here. And then when she asked you about it, you didn't answer it. But, regardless, her being concerned about you claiming she doesn't setup spec did not, in fact, have to do with how she plays on a general level. I think she was pretty obviously concerned because you had missed her setup spec'ing in this game, multiple times, since practically the very start of the game. The logic there is consistent; and even if you just happened to miss it, it is perfectly reasonable that someone would find that hard to believe.

I also refuse to believe you make 1839 after the whole claimgate after she got paranoid she'd get lynched. At that point, she was really fucking obviously town and I am 100% sure you should have been able to recognize it by then. You acting unsure about her, or like she could potentially be "scum manipulating her meta" entirely ignores everything about how it actually played out and it reads like you're blatantly acting here. The only reason she even brought it up was because YOU hadn't noticed where she had setup spec'd before; so claiming it could be her manipulating her meta after the fact is fucking awful. And if you *were* concerned that that was she was doing, why didn't you just ... ask her about it? I don't see you actually asking her anything to work out what your read on her actually is, and when she tried to ask you to elaborate on what was giving you reservations about her here, you kept ignoring it and saying stuff like "I'm not sure so I don't see why it's a big deal". And when she asked you why you thought she'd specifically go out of her way to tailor her meta to you as opposed to other people in the game, we got ... nothing. So how the hell were you trying to "work with her" here?

This is why I don't see a town approach in the way you played this. In fact, it read like you were specifically trying to find something to comment on in order to look like you had a point here.

What posts of notsci's are you talking about here?

I hated 1825/1842. If you're trying to work with someone, you don't fucking say something like "read the fucking game". I think he (who has had several games experience with Tammy) should know better than to say something like that there if he thought what was going on was her misinterpreting his posts.

I didn't like 1684 either. I might be reading too much into it, but I think town-notsci should have actually ... asked ... where Tammy had setup spec'd before after being told he was in fact wrong about it. It read overly superficial and I don't get the impression he actually wanted to sort her there; it read like he wasn't sure what to actually say so he tried to act sarcastic to cover it up (this is the kind of thing I alluded to earlier re: his response to me/how people like Sakura play as scum).

Plus I think in general he should have known better than to think Tammy could be scum here in the first place (1839, for reasons explained above).

[Nachomamma8]

My theory on N1 was that scum was setting up a one-shot vig claim, and I'm currently trying to figure out how likely that is based on reads right now.

I don't think scum fakeclaiming vig fakeclaims two-shot, but I would be happier with reads if implo took a consensus-directed shit tonight.

[Vinkah]

rc's right about one thing. me continuing to stay in this game and play at this clip is just bad play. i hoped my schedule would clear up but there's not end in sight to that. im going to ask Empire for a replacement.

notsci and Nacho are probably scum.

<3