512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[AngryPidgeon]

Vote Count 1.22

Metal Sonic(2) - Wingback, Polar Vortex
sthar8(2) - Metal Sonic, Sekai no Ki
Wingback(1) - Kaboose

Not Voting(3): sthar8, Firebringer, T S O

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With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

(expired on 2015-08-21 12:00:00)

[T S O]

okay yeah I'm finished reading sthar's posts.

[sekai no ki]

What are your thoughts?

[T S O]

I hate to give such a shit wishy-washy read, but I can see good stuff and bad stuff and I haven't really balanced it yet. But, no, I don't feel particularly enthused on a sthar vote right now.

I think a lot of stuff he's done is null - that whole thing with Firebringer's job, for example. I know he does it as town, but he can also easily do it as scum, and he has no reason not to since it's essentially a smokescreen. I thought the timing in his self-vote was a little odd. He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated. Sometimes it feels like there's a lack of scumhunting in his ISO - I really hate when people use this accusation in general because so often it's to cover up a flimsy scumread, but it's true. I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him. A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game. But it's pretty obvious he's kinda demotivated, so I can't really draw a conclusion there. I think a lot of the things ETL levelled against him are unfair - for example, where she calls his #1009 scum gloating. It's not. No-one really seems to have an articulate case on him and I'd expect some kind of kickback if he was scum from his scumpartner given that bussing is kinda anathema in a game like this. It's more like the scumteam are just content to let the hours run down and we eventually agree that he's the best lynch for today and lynch him and it's a town mislynch. I have no idea why individual players want to lynch him and I'd like to hear why given that there's a lot of static rather than real information when it comes to that.

[T S O]

That's poorly formatted and sometimes incoherent, but it was more stream-of-consciousness than anything. I know that I'm having my cake and eating it too when it comes to that read. Like I said, I need to decide whether the good outweighs the bad.

[sekai no ki]

1012 and 1026 document our reasoning. There are tidbits scattered elsewhere in our iso, but those two posts consolidate it and respond to sthar8's rebuttal of our reads list.

[sekai no ki]

We also felt like ETL corroborated most of our concerns as something to be concerned about. She had other points we didn't have, as well, which I chalk up to greater knowledge and experience of his play in all alignments.

[Polar Vortex]

Frankly, for me personally it's mostly PoE. I havs strong town read on everybody but sthar and MS. If you want a set in stone reason is that the whole I'm a negative utility feels very fake to me. Subjectibe yes, but the effect is clearly given by that unvote which was rushed

[sthar8]

Ack!

We're pretty well slammed this week with the convention and I slept 16 hours last night. Hopefully I'll have time at work to catch up.


Hey T! How's it going kiddo! You scum this game?

[T S O]

Quite well! And no, though I kinda hoped I would be when I saw you in the playerlist!

[T S O]

General opinion seems to be convening on you for the d1 lynch. You have any particular suspects?

[sthar8]

Wisdom modkill seems rather harsh given that he was wrong.

he was fucking cheating.

[sthar8]

ANYWAY back to important things

[sthar8]

I don't have the time or inclination to make this huge, so y'all are gonna have to exercise your abilities at asking questions.

Currently, I'd be glad to lynch MS because his cop-gambit is the only town-motivated thing I've seen out of him, and that has been thoroughly devalued.

ETL was climbing pretty high on my suspect list, because the points she was pushing on me are completely disingenuous and ridiculous. The 'scum-gloating' comment was taken ridiculously out of context, and she kept making unsubstantiated meta arguments that I know she knows to be false. The crumbs I used to indicate being cop are ones that she should have recognized: I've used similar ones in games with her before and I know she looks for them because she has at least once and possibly twice made cases on me based on her perceiving crumbs that weren't actually there. If she had noticed the crumbs and treated them as real, it would have been a sign to me that she was town, and if she shot me over them my death would have been protown. Instead, she

pretended

to get them, then denied having seen them, and pushed a vague notcase based on crapmeta.

However, TSO's entry does not fit with that. It'll take me some time to read him accurately, but I really liked his entrance into the thread.

Pie is also high on my list. I ascribed my earlier issues with the slot to paranoia, which still could very well be the case. But pie and ffery are pushing an empty and bad case, sheeping etl's crap reasoning, and generally taking a backseat in this game. Even busy and unengaged pie should have a lot more teeth if she really thought I were scum.

PV's arguments against me have been almost totally ridiculous nonsequiturs. The push was a weak and terrible double standard in the first place, but if bearbert is scum he's convincingly faking his belief in an argument that is really laughable. I'm not comfortable lynching them right now.


I'm gonna skim through for things directed at me that I missed, but I might not have a ton of time today.

[T S O]

ffery feels he doesn't look like he's legitimately scum hunting.

This is a fair point, given that I thought the same.

She thinks the whole "profiling" thing re: Firebringer looked almost like busywork and that it was a very unnatural direction to take with him. pie has her own thoughts on the "profiling", most of which she's explained already (she thinks it looks extremely similar to what he did in the Team Mafia game where he asked her a bunch of playstyle-related questions that had nothing to do with the actual game, probably in order to serve as a distraction. P-EDIT: This might not be the case anymore pending her looking through the game sthar linked and researching other games where he did this)

So this isn't really anything.

she also thinks the scum hunting sthar has done when he has scum hunted has been relatively shallow (the Kaboose case as the primary example).

I'm not sure I can count "not scumhunting" and "scumhunting shallow when scumhunting" as different points. They're not exactly similar, but they bear a lot of resemblance.

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

I'm not really sure why this garners a scumread, to tell the truth. Even if you think it's a sloppy argument, I'd venture that he is more likely to be sloppy as town than as scum.

[T S O]

Your case seems to essentially be "not scumhunting". Which is fair enough. I just don't feel confident pushing it given that it sometimes feels when I read back like sthar's not always fully there in the game, and that is a pretty decent explanation to the lack of scumhunting. It might not be right, but it seems more likely than "not scumhunting because scum". I will admit that him not being here isn't a towntell at all, but if you're making a case for him being scum I'm not sure I can run with that.

I also think that you're smart enough to see that, so I fail to understand where your confidence in sthar-scum is coming from. It's the consensus lynch right now, which you are eagerly pushing, and I feel like it has barely any basis.

[T S O]

Sthar, what's your read on Sepai?

[T S O]

Also if people could post more, that would be lovely. Has Wingback even posted today?

[T S O]

I haven't even read Wingback's ISO but he seems to be pretty widely townread so I guess I'll go with that for now.

[sthar8]

He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated.

It was a joke. ETL told me to selfvote.

I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him.

She's breaking up with her fiance.

Also note that I've done this with you before. I have literally said d1, "I don't want to think about reading T yet, let's leave him until tomorrow."

A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game.

cop crumb.

[sthar8]

Sthar, what's your read on Sepai?

possibly scum.

i'd rather lynch sonic though

[Firebringer]

Time to do the No Lynch dance!
No Lynch!
No Lynch!

[sthar8]

do you have to pee? is that what this is?

[T S O]

My actual reads are sthar-town (I feel he's cleared up my issues pretty indisputably), sepai-maybescum, ms-maybescum.

[T S O]

Also, definitely thinking of ETL.