Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[notscience]

But you're jsut going to call these posts faked so whatever.

[notscience]

VOTE: nacho

I'm just sheeping ffery now.

[pieguyn]

:/

I slept on it. In all honesty, I don't actually think notsci is scum anymore. 2437 and 2439 in particular were posts that stood out as feeling really really town.

I need to leave for class in a few minutes so I can't give an in-depth response to your post. I have a lot of time this afternoon after class so I'll be able to pop on and respond to it then.

[pieguyn]

My issues with notsci's play were entirely logic-based and based around the fact that he/Nacho made a hell of a lot of sense as a scum team, plus the fact that I can't come up with any other way this game makes any sense due to having a lot of town reads elsewhere.

I think Nacho basically has to be scum here. Even outside of how it relates to notsci, most of what he's posted today is actually nonsense. *If* he is somehow town here, I will probably need to rethink everything about this game.

Later today I should hopefully be able to reread some stuff in-depth.

vote: Nacho

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a backup rolecop.

I really really don't feel like defending myself right now, but I'll get something up in thread anyways.

[notscience]

Hey guys, the point of a massclaim is to claim your role truthfully.

[notscience]

Also nacho/rc scumteam just became viable.

[notscience]

Actually hold on I need to think on that more.

[Wickedestjr]

Reading through

Why? I could understand this if you had issue with one player's arguments in particular. But it's not clear that you do, so this assumption doesn't make much sense to me. I'm still actually town reading both of them.

It seems like a powerplay. I don't think a townsperson, knowing that tomorrow is likely MyLo would willingly go into a 1v1 to try and get a single scum. The scum get two free nightkills essentially. More if on the odd chance that scum has a bookie (which is what was floating around my mind about Implosion).

This doesn't make sense / answer my question. You said "one of them is scum", thus the implication is that "one of them is town" too.

But if you don't think a townsperson would willingly go into a 1v1, does that mean you think it's scum v scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

[Wickedestjr]

If you're town here, how would you have played it differently as scum?

given that RC's role is capable of being cleared, there is no universe where I would have walked in here and saved him when he would certainly have been lynched otherwise.

if I have the chance to eliminate a potential clear from the game, I take it, full stop - you could make the argument the alternative lynch might have been a significantly larger threat, but Boon? BOON?!?!

Ok, this seems like a fair point. What do you think of this notscience?

[notscience]

Keep reading.

[implosion]

/mass claim over

ah, you naive fool...

Not really buying nacho's claim especially insofar as it can easily be a scum role. But we'll see what he has to say.

[Tammy]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

I was trying to figure out how this game could make sense not be more confusing.

[Nachomamma8]

Well why does "missing town traits" suddenly trump "different scum meta"? And what prompted this reread?

My RC meta as its most basic level is that RC as scum is aggressive, engaged, pushes mislynches, widely townread for being conventionally town. RC as town is not.

Normally, what makes a player good as scum to the point where they can be successful in a wide variety of playerlists is through self-awareness, and by possessing an understanding of how other players read you. RC possesses that awareness, and, while it seems unlikely to me that RC would fake his town meta as scum because it gives him less influence in the game and still puts him under a lot of pressure; so, early game, when he seemed more directionless and flail-y, I was townreading him for that very reason. But, whenever you are townreading someone for performing under what they are capable of as scum as opposed to townreading them for outperforming what they are capable as scum, there is always doubt and there is always uneasiness. When Boon became town and implosion claimed vig, my reads were past shot to shit; the only person who really seemed to have a feasible chance of being scum anymore was Vinkah, but that push in and of itself frustrated me because I knew it was a lynch that was exactly like the Boonskies lynch: no one really had a case beyond "lurking, probably not town", and while this is actually a perfectly fine reason to lynch on some occasions, it frustrated me that we kept compromising on lynches for that reason or similar reasons and I knew that Vinkah!town would leave us right back where we started and would probably be fatal for the game state the next day. I saw S-S and Ffery expressing discomfort with RC, so that's where I started. When I started reading RC through a lens of "how does this move make sense as scum from RC?" instead of "is this

really

RC's scumgame?", him being scum made more sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey guys, the point of a massclaim is to claim your role truthfully.

There really wasn't any reason to claim my role truthfully in that situation.

[implosion]

What reason did you have to lie?

[Nachomamma8]

Picking up on who he's pushing instead of focusing on the reasons he is pushing them is a subtlety to me. Is this an unreasonable viewpoint to have? Why?

Uh... yeah I think the decision of who to push is a pretty crucial thing. I'm not sure how to explain this because it seems pretty trivial. The reasoning is probably easier to dissect and interpret than the target choice, sure. But I also think that scum put a lot of thought into picking who they will attack - e.g. what's safe, what's best for them and their partners, etc.

I've literally caught scum before with a case that mostly revolved around voting behavior.

I mean obviously it isn't

that

subtle, or you wouldn't be referring to it now.

This argument in particular is something that I'd bring out when I'm saying I don't think you understand me. Why is the argument being subtle/not subtle significant?

What I was trying to say was that picking up on RC being scum required a different mindset and a different approach. I didn't think that his votes really looked scummy, I didn't really think that his cases were bad or uncharacteristic, and I didn't think that most of the moves he made that trended more on the anti-town side (most notably the hammer, don't think there were other things but there might have been) were worth the heat that he got and was obviously coming.

Whether this was subtle, or not subtle is not something that is important to me. I don't understand why it's important to you. I understand that you look for contradictions because they are a good place to start but I don't understand why you think me as town knows the difference between subtle and not subtle but me as scum doesn't or why you think there is any advantage as scum in pushing otherwise.

[fferyllt]

Well why does "missing town traits" suddenly trump "different scum meta"? And what prompted this reread?

My RC meta as its most basic level is that RC as scum is aggressive, engaged, pushes mislynches, widely townread for being conventionally town. RC as town is not.

Normally, what makes a player good as scum to the point where they can be successful in a wide variety of playerlists is through self-awareness, and by possessing an understanding of how other players read you. RC possesses that awareness, and, while it seems unlikely to me that RC would fake his town meta as scum because it gives him less influence in the game and still puts him under a lot of pressure; so, early game, when he seemed more directionless and flail-y, I was townreading him for that very reason. But, whenever you are townreading someone for performing under what they are capable of as scum as opposed to townreading them for outperforming what they are capable as scum, there is always doubt and there is always uneasiness. When Boon became town and implosion claimed vig, my reads were past shot to shit; the only person who really seemed to have a feasible chance of being scum anymore was Vinkah, but that push in and of itself frustrated me because I knew it was a lynch that was exactly like the Boonskies lynch: no one really had a case beyond "lurking, probably not town", and while this is actually a perfectly fine reason to lynch on some occasions, it frustrated me that we kept compromising on lynches for that reason or similar reasons and I knew that Vinkah!town would leave us right back where we started and would probably be fatal for the game state the next day. I saw S-S and Ffery expressing discomfort with RC, so that's where I started. When I started reading RC through a lens of "how does this move make sense as scum from RC?" instead of "is this

really

RC's scumgame?", him being scum made more sense.

This makes more sense to me than your earlier explanations.

[Nachomamma8]

When massclaim happened, I was in a good position in that I still wasn't a very likely lynch and I was definitely not a target for kill since I was probably one of the easier mislynches in the game. Tammy had outed as role cop and was almost definitely going to die that night without useful information. There is almost guaranteed to be one scum that can be outed by investigation on the scum team, and at least one more person (you), whose alignment could still be proven by investigation. Being able to get an investigation off on you if your kill doesn't go through for some reason or getting another shot at the scum who is almost certainly going deep seemed infinitely more useful than being honest for the sake of honesty, and I wasn't interested in arguing against a massclaim when my only reason for doing so was trying to stay hidden as a power role.

[fferyllt]

Rolecop
Backup rolecop
Miller
Vig
Jailkeeper

It doesn't feel right.

[notscience]

I think Rolecop and Jailkeeper are our center roles, they make or break it.

I think 1 of the other 3 would make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

What. Are you serious?

You said your problem with RC was that his hammer was too image-conscious. That was two thirds of my case against him! (First and third points)

This feels like a misrep

Your problem with RC is that he's trying to soften the blow of a mislynch by saying that he's not that sure about it and by saying that a town flip wouldn't be that bad, which are conventional scumtells based on the theory that scum are less confident pushing mislynches than town because theyknow what they are doing is wrong.

My problem with the hammer was that he even gave reasons he was hammering at all; there was no need for him to explain himself to anyone, so explaining his mindset to everyone else (even if it was 100% how he would approach the situation as town) seemed like it had no other purpose other than damage control, which I don't think was your point but it suddenly dawns on me that I'm just making that assumption and am probably a huge ass in doing so, so sorry for that.

[pieguyn]

i could easily see that claim coming from Nacho as either alignment

i think Nacho was probably bussing RC on D2.

[notscience]

My tinfoil theory is nacho is a backup rolecop so scum knew that town had one, so RC claimed Miller because he's a godfather.