Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[RedCoyote]

And it's relevant to his flipped read on me, which I don't want to discuss just yet.

Fair enough.

RC why do you feel the oversoul wagon is the better wagon at this point?

I mean, this begs a 20 page answer, and the passion I have for it could literally have me writing 20 pages about it. I don't want to do that though. I don't think that's the most effective way in sell you on the wagon, do you? Let me put it this way, see if this gets you to scratch your chin a bit, I'm so confident Oversoul is the better wagon that it has me seeing red on you, ffrey. Even after I have townread you many times earlier in this game. You get what I mean by that? Like, when you let him get away with that non-VT claim, it sent me on a warpath against you, rightly or wrongly. I'm not saying that to try and bring up that again because I think that conversation has served it's purpose, but to present it to you from the perspective of that's how confident I am in this read.

From a purely practical standpoint, it's better to lynch a VT over a claimed PR.

From a pure WIFOM standpoint, scum is more likely to softfake a PR to try and stay alive than town is.

From a pure activity standpoint, both Vinkah and Oversoul have both effectively used active lurking to their consummate advantage. Doubly so in Vinkah's case as he criticized me for daring to even bring that up.

From a pure anti-town standpoint, a single VT should not stonewall a good faith mass claim as the single hold out.

From a pure strength-of-the-wagon standpoint, I would take myself-Wicked-implosion over pie-ns (though Wicked had flipped, so this argument is necessarily less strong).

Should I go on?

[fferyllt]

that helps, thanks.

I'm not going to vote before Tammy is done with her review and Q&A and what have you. I want more from Nacho also.

[implosion]

I'm still particularly curious about what Oversoul meant by him being an objectively bad lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

What benefit is there for Nacho to withhold a claim that could be used to bolster his town cred? There's a lot of town benefit in doing that (he rolls the dice that he doesn't get pressure, Tammy dies, he gets to start catching some reports). As scum, it only serves to put a target on his back (see: Wicked's reaction). I'm not saying this because I think Nacho is necessarily town, but I could see his rationale a hell of a lot better (PR faking as VT) than I could for Oversoul (VT faking as not VT).

If he's town, it's sooo unlikely that he'd actually get to put his role to use though. He would not only have to survive today's lynch, but also tomorrow's lynch, before he could even investigate someone. I'm not seeing the value in this play...

[RedCoyote]

Not what I would've done, sure, but I also wouldn't have done what Oversoul did.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Not what I would've done, sure, but I also wouldn't have done what Oversoul did.

Agreed.

I still think they could both be scum.

[notscience]

fery can I get your thoughts on what I said about nacho a few pages ago

[fferyllt]

Post 2516?

[notscience]

yes

Also I had this really batshit tinfoil thought on my ride up here but its so batshit I don't particularly care to share it because more mist

[fferyllt]

I think the mist idea is good, but I don't think Nacho absolutely must be a source of mist.

I have some tinfoil stuff running around inside my head, but it would involve a level of scum preplanning and play that I don't think I've ever seen in a game. Except this one time involving a player who doesn't play at MS and even then he was on his own with it, not orchestrating a team.

[notscience]

I wonder if we're having the same tinfoil, because that's part of why I dismissed mine.

[Empire]

DAY 3, VOTECOUNT 11

Nachomamma8 (3)

-

notscience, pieguyn, Wickedestjr

Oversoul (3)

-

RedCoyote, Nachomamma8, implosion

notscience (1)

-

Oversoul

Not Voting (2)

-

Tammy, fferyllt

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch! Deadline is on August 29th at 9:40 AM EST or in (expired on 2015-08-29 09:39:56).

Mod Notes - N/A

[Nachomamma8]

Uncharted territory. You're coming off calm and disconnected. It's been like that to some degree all along, but today is more so.

Part of it is conscious effort to prevent frustrations from spilling over into the game thread, which has happened quite a bit lately in a way I'm not really happy with. The rest is probably due to a much more strained schedule; I've gotten better at managing it lately, but on average, body and mind is much more weary than it used to be.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho trying to save Notsci his buddy
Right on time

This sort of thing is one of the stronger reasons I think oversoul is scum. He dismisses me because I'm a mislynch target and doesn't so much as attempt to interact with me or work with me; I can see him as town responding in a similar fashion to an approach that wasn't as serious, was more blatant bullshit, or was just different somehow but it didn't really feel great when it unfolded in the way it did.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is the one I'm really worried about. he talked about our usual town mind meld, but I've only had flickers of that. the strongest flicker was on day 1 when he was rethinking Anen. If anyone was going to get into my head and see where my vote came from, it would be him. And instead, he scumread me for it. It's sitting out there in the thread in a strange place with no obvious antecedent because the drivers were all internal. Anyway, he's been going back and forth with you over one vote most of the game day while all this crap is happening between notsci vs pie. I wanted more indication of where his thoughts on oversoul were headed, but maybe that was unrealistic given his thread presence.

Of all the major votes I've made this game (the ones I can remember, Anen, Cheetory, implosion, RC), I've done so because I've been significantly influenced by your direction and pushes. The major wagons I bucked against (Anen, Boon) also had a fair bit of your thought process behind them and I've seen my thought process in plenty of your pushes and push backs. Generally when this happens, we are on the same page in a good way, and your vote on me when I was feeling the most vulnerable sent up red flags, which I acted on at the time when I wouldn't act on it necessarily in different times and different places. "I wanted to see how you reacted" was not what I was expecting as an explanation at all; your later explanation was a lot closer to what I was expecting as a response.

I don't know what you mean by I've been going back and forth over one vote all day; I focused on the RC vote with Wicked earlier for a little while and didn't really focus on much else because I lacked the direction to really push or search anywhere else; I was thinking of where I wanted to go when I wasn't posting in the game and spending any time I had in thread trying to do one of the many many things I want to do in this thread.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's ffery push is scummy as fuck. What we're seeing here, folks, is cornered Nacho-scum flailing. He *convenienly* is ignoring the entire notsci/me shitstorm that's going on except for one weak as fuck sentence; he can't push me because he knows I'll run him into the ground if he even tries it after N1570, and he conveniently isn't going to push his partner notsci, so he's just making up a bunch of shit in order to *hopefully* get away with pushing someone elsewhere.

The only thing you're doing here is noticing that I dared mention ffery might possibly be scum and then overreacting based on that point and that point alone. I wouldn't feel afraid to push you as scum this game; there's nothing wrong with pushing a player as scum as long as you have a decent reason to do so and everyone understands it's a decent reason to so, and pushing you for being underwhelming or pushing you for pushing notsci would have been pretty reasonable things to do. And now that you acknowledge that notsci is probably town, I wouldn't just leave that gigantic clusterfuck alone as scum unless I had a partner or two in it. There. absolutely no reason for me not to jump in on that mislynch opportunity and push things along before you two inevitably towned to each other.

[Nachomamma8]

This Oversoul wagon is one of the most shit wagons I've ever seen in my whole entire life.

And also, don't say things Ile think this without actually reading the case against oversoul, it's not like I'm pulling things out of my ass.

[fferyllt]

Nacho is the one I'm really worried about. he talked about our usual town mind meld, but I've only had flickers of that. the strongest flicker was on day 1 when he was rethinking Anen. If anyone was going to get into my head and see where my vote came from, it would be him. And instead, he scumread me for it. It's sitting out there in the thread in a strange place with no obvious antecedent because the drivers were all internal. Anyway, he's been going back and forth with you over one vote most of the game day while all this crap is happening between notsci vs pie. I wanted more indication of where his thoughts on oversoul were headed, but maybe that was unrealistic given his thread presence.

Of all the major votes I've made this game (the ones I can remember, Anen, Cheetory, implosion, RC), I've done so because I've been significantly influenced by your direction and pushes. The major wagons I bucked against (Anen, Boon) also had a fair bit of your thought process behind them and I've seen my thought process in plenty of your pushes and push backs. Generally when this happens, we are on the same page in a good way, and your vote on me when I was feeling the most vulnerable sent up red flags, which I acted on at the time when I wouldn't act on it necessarily in different times and different places. "I wanted to see how you reacted" was not what I was expecting as an explanation at all; your later explanation was a lot closer to what I was expecting as a response.

I don't know what you mean by I've been going back and forth over one vote all day; I focused on the RC vote with Wicked earlier for a little while and didn't really focus on much else because I lacked the direction to really push or search anywhere else; I was thinking of where I wanted to go when I wasn't posting in the game and spending any time I had in thread trying to do one of the many many things I want to do in this thread.

I feel llike I've been able to understand what you were trying to do several times, but, like with the push on Boon to hopefully get him to obvtown - I knew what you were doing, I went along, and there was a pretty decent pro-town reason to do it, but I didn't have any confidence it was going to lead us to lynching scum day 2. And it reminded me of games where scum-you have pulled one townie out of the fire while pushng another townie into it.

I felt like most of your day 3 energy at the time I posted my vote had been spent on talking to wicked about his read of you.

Maybe it comes down to your not being able to follow up or follow through at significant junctures.

[Nachomamma8]

In Tales of Vesperia when I an everyone else was reading you wrong and you thought there was a glimmer of ffery reading you correctly somewhere and faltering the like loss of an ally felt more real.

Tales of Vesperia was a game that was miles and miles away from my feeling then and my feeling now. its miles and miles away from how Ffery and I interact now, even if my play hasn't necessarily evolved in obvious ways since then.

[Nachomamma8]

And it reminded me of games where scum-you have pulled one townie out of the fire while pushng another townie into it.

This is very much how I try to play scumgames because it helps create allies to make up for the enemies I make when getting the mislynches I need. I don't think I've really been playing to get the allies I need this game and that is one strong sign that I'm town, but that's also something that I'm not really sure is obvious enough to be good selling point/I'm not sure how I'd play it differently as scum except what I mentioned before/ actually fight harder to lynch what I want to lynch.

[fferyllt]

"I wanted to see how you reacted" was not what I was expecting as an explanation at all; your later explanation was a lot closer to what I was expecting as a response.

Also this is so much of an oversimplification that it qualfies as a misrepresentation.

[fferyllt]

And it reminded me of games where scum-you have pulled one townie out of the fire while pushng another townie into it.

This is very much how I try to play scumgames because it helps create allies to make up for the enemies I make when getting the mislynches I need. I don't think I've really been playing to get the allies I need this game and that is one strong sign that I'm town, but that's also something that I'm not really sure is obvious enough to be good selling point/I'm not sure how I'd play it differently as scum except what I mentioned before/

actually fight harder to lynch what I want to lynch.

I feel like prior to today (and to some extent prior to my vote) you hadn't been doing this. You hadn't been working to get scumreads lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho :/

(I'm going to reread through oversoul and reread through a town and scum game tonight just to get on some grounding, but oversoul knows damn well I wouldn't just investigate him because he told me to.)

Can we actually have a talk about oversoul before you kill me? I know you're working through him at your own pace and all that jazz but I'd like if you could let me know where I'm apparently going wrong here.

[Nachomamma8]

vote: Nacho

:/

Ffery, are you scum? I've been hoping you could sort of translate my thoughts wrt RC to wicked for me, and then right when I'm expecting you to step in and help, you vote me. Why?

I voted you because this game doesn't make any sense and I feel like it's because my reads are terrible. I've been trusting you and following you to some eextent but it's like I have a lump of ice in my stomach.

I voted you, hoping you're town and you'll show it in your reaction and you'll do what I can't seem to do which is solve this game.

Would it be less oversimplified if I said it was to make me town harder?