2016 US Presidential Election Thread

[Psyche]

i would never vote green ever

okay that's not quite true

[SleepyKrew]

...then you're a fucking moron.

Could we discuss politics without name-calling?

You can't discuss politics with someone that's aggressively ignorant.

[hiplop]

Kmd - speaking as someone who seems to share similar views to you - you're completely wasting your time trying to make a point here. The people who post in this thread are ultra-liberal to a point. They all vote Democrat, and in fact they don't even like centrist democrats, as evidenced by the heavy Sanders support. They all believe that all minorities are being discriminated against systematically, especially black people, women and transgenders, and if you don't agree it's because of your white privilege. There should definitely have been an indictment in Ferguson, welfare state is great, defund the military, down with cops. And so forth.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'll probably be the only one.

did you just call women minorities

[Kublai Khan]

...then you're a fucking moron.

Could we discuss politics without name-calling?

You can't discuss politics with someone that's aggressively ignorant.

Then don't discuss them. Go yell in a cave instead.

The most ineffectual liberal is the one that resorts to insults.

[zoraster]

that's what an idiot would say if he were feeling particularly idioty.

[SleepyKrew]

Do you think TSO could be reasoned with if I didn't insult him?

Also, I yelled at him anyway because it's cathartic and I don't know any good caves. If he's a troll just trying to get a rise out of people, I am the winner because I enjoyed it.

[sthar8]

They all vote Democrat,

I don't vote.

[MonkeyMan576]

Kmd - speaking as someone who seems to share similar views to you - you're completely wasting your time trying to make a point here. The people who post in this thread are ultra-liberal to a point. They all vote Democrat, and in fact they don't even like centrist democrats, as evidenced by the heavy Sanders support. They all believe that all minorities are being discriminated against systematically, especially black people, women and transgenders, and if you don't agree it's because of your white privilege. There should definitely have been an indictment in Ferguson, welfare state is great, defund the military, down with cops. And so forth.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'll probably be the only one.

did you just call women minorities

Women are protected by the equal rights ammendment so by definition they have minority status.

There are two definitions for minority.

1) A group that has a numerical disadvantage.

or

2) Groups that have been supressed by a majority group. In this case, women have not enjoyed rights such as voting and land ownership in the past, and thus are given minority status.

[Psyche]

mm is right!

[sthar8]

I get the feeling Monkey understands the value of hard work and dedication. Way to go Monkey.

Disclaimer: I've worked minimum wage before and struggled plenty but never even considered asking for any kind of government assistance because I don't believe in that unless you are incapable of working.

I work minimum wage and have since I was 16 years old. I will almost certainly work minimum wage until I die, assuming I'm lucky enough to have work for the duration. I get paid for about 70% of the hours I work, and I'm usually in the store 7 days a week. I have never taken a cent of public assistance, including loans. I paid for my own college education and wrote my parents a check to repay the legal fees I incurred as a minor.

A significant number of the kids I mentor are fed and clothed by food stamps and charity. None of them are strangers to hard work or dedication, especially after I've known them for a while. But believing that anything but raw luck and fortunate circumstance separates the poor from anyone else is dangerously stupid and blindly delusional.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's not so much that poor people couldn't do the same things rich people could, or are less deserving of wealth, but a lot of poor people get trapped in a cycle of dependancy, where they feel like they don't have a say in their success. But many wealthy people in the United States are self made, so to speak, and deserve credit for the wealth they have built for themselves.

I feel for your situation, sthar8, but I disagree that most poor people don't have a chance to get out of being poor. Most employers will readily promote someone that works hard and shows dedication to their job and talent rather than someone that feels like they are there based on entitlement. Perhaps your own attitude is the reason for your lack of success, not the upper class pushing you down.

[sthar8]

Do you think TSO could be reasoned with if I didn't insult him?

Actually yes. He's a bright young man and his opinions are largely influenced by his surroundings. This might be the wrong medium for it, but he's rational enough to allow evidence to inform his positions.

[SleepyKrew]

Do you think TSO could be reasoned with if I didn't insult him?

Actually yes. He's a bright young man and his opinions are largely influenced by his surroundings. This might be the wrong medium for it, but he's rational enough to allow evidence to inform his positions.

i clicked the link kmd and that's not what she said at all

“I mean if we’re honest, for a lot of well-meaning, open-minded white people, the sight of a young black man in a hoodie still evokes a twinge of fear,” Clinton said.

this is really true (and has been shown scientifically) and the fact that it isn't talked about is part of what's wrong with the national conversation about race

Kmd - speaking as someone who seems to share similar views to you - you're completely wasting your time trying to make a point here. The people who post in this thread are ultra-liberal to a point. They all vote Democrat, and in fact they don't even like centrist democrats, as evidenced by the heavy Sanders support. They all believe that all minorities are being discriminated against systematically, especially black people, women and transgenders, and if you don't agree it's because of your white privilege. There should definitely have been an indictment in Ferguson, welfare state is great, defund the military, down with cops. And so forth.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'll probably be the only one.

[sthar8]

It's not so much that poor people couldn't do the same things rich people could, or are less deserving of wealth, but a lot of poor people get trapped in a cycle of dependancy, where they feel like they don't have a say in their success. But many wealthy people in the United States are self made, so to speak, and deserve credit for the wealth they have built for themselves.

I feel for your situation, sthar8, but I disagree that most poor people don't have a chance to get out of being poor. Most employers will readily promote someone that works hard and shows dedication to their job and talent rather than someone that feels like they are there based on entitlement. Perhaps your own attitude is the reason for your lack of success, not the upper class pushing you down.

So what exactly is it that I need to do to pull myself up by my bootstraps?

What about the kids? What are they supposed to do to just be less dependent?

This is me actively resisting the impulse to tell you to go fuck yourself for implying that my life would be better if I weren't so inferior.

[sthar8]

Do you think TSO could be reasoned with if I didn't insult him?

Actually yes. He's a bright young man and his opinions are largely influenced by his surroundings. This might be the wrong medium for it, but he's rational enough to allow evidence to inform his positions.

i clicked the link kmd and that's not what she said at all

“I mean if we’re honest, for a lot of well-meaning, open-minded white people, the sight of a young black man in a hoodie still evokes a twinge of fear,” Clinton said.

this is really true (and has been shown scientifically) and the fact that it isn't talked about is part of what's wrong with the national conversation about race

Kmd - speaking as someone who seems to share similar views to you - you're completely wasting your time trying to make a point here. The people who post in this thread are ultra-liberal to a point. They all vote Democrat, and in fact they don't even like centrist democrats, as evidenced by the heavy Sanders support. They all believe that all minorities are being discriminated against systematically, especially black people, women and transgenders, and if you don't agree it's because of your white privilege. There should definitely have been an indictment in Ferguson, welfare state is great, defund the military, down with cops. And so forth.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'll probably be the only one.

Opinions are informed by experiences. He hasn't had the experiences you have. It is extremely unlikely that he's ever been discriminated against, or harmed by a police officer. It is very likely, on the other hand, that he's seen 'white privilege' used as a thought-stopper rather than in rational discussion.

It's the same with monkey. He doesn't understand that he's being a complete douche and a terrible asshat, he legitimately believes that if I try harder I can be wealthy, because that's what he's been told all his life and he's never slowed down to think about all the fortuitous events that have put him where he is.

[Sudo_Nym]

It's not so much that poor people couldn't do the same things rich people could, or are less deserving of wealth, but a lot of poor people get trapped in a cycle of dependancy, where they feel like they don't have a say in their success. But many wealthy people in the United States are self made, so to speak, and deserve credit for the wealth they have built for themselves.

I feel for your situation, sthar8, but I disagree that most poor people don't have a chance to get out of being poor. Most employers will readily promote someone that works hard and shows dedication to their job and talent rather than someone that feels like they are there based on entitlement. Perhaps your own attitude is the reason for your lack of success, not the upper class pushing you down.

The problem is one of scale, not necessarily of hard work. There are lots of hard working people in the world, but there's not unlimited opportunity for them all. The reality is that some people are going to work hard every day of their life and never get a promotion out of the deal, because that's not allowed within the system. People denigrate burger-flippers, but people love to eat burgers, so somebody's gotta flip them. And the person who flips them is going to be paid minimum wage, regardless of how hard he works at flipping the burgers. And before people start talking about how "burger-flipping's for high school kids!", it's that way across the spectrum. The guy who repairs your car probably doesn't get paid very well, but unless everybody's going to start repairing their own cars, we're going to need those people. And we're going to continue paying them as little as we can, because that's how capitalism works.

Moreover, economic reward isn't correlated with how hard a person works. A good nurse will bust her ass every day, and get paid about as well as a secretary. Meanwhile, an investment banker will make many times her salary. That doesn't mean that the investment banker didn't work hard, but it does mean that saying "People should work hard!" isn't actually viable. Being a stay at home mom is a difficult job. It also pays nothing.

[MonkeyMan576]

It's not so much that poor people couldn't do the same things rich people could, or are less deserving of wealth, but a lot of poor people get trapped in a cycle of dependancy, where they feel like they don't have a say in their success. But many wealthy people in the United States are self made, so to speak, and deserve credit for the wealth they have built for themselves.

I feel for your situation, sthar8, but I disagree that most poor people don't have a chance to get out of being poor. Most employers will readily promote someone that works hard and shows dedication to their job and talent rather than someone that feels like they are there based on entitlement. Perhaps your own attitude is the reason for your lack of success, not the upper class pushing you down.

So what exactly is it that I need to do to pull myself up by my bootstraps?

What about the kids? What are they supposed to do to just be less dependent?

This is me actively resisting the impulse to tell you to go fuck yourself for implying that my life would be better if I weren't so inferior.

Learn new skills, network at your job, avoid negative influences in your life, things like that.

Anyone who thinks they do every possible thing to better their lives is lying to themselves.

I would give you more detailed advice, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate for a public thread. And you probably wouldn't want it anyways.

You sound like the sort of person that blames other people for your problems rather than trying to work to improve your situation.

not trying to judge, but your attitude is completely wrong, and part of the issue with welfare.

[sthar8]

Also, a challenge. Please relate the story of one American billionaire who is completely self-made. I guarantee that luck played a significant part in their story.

[N]

Learn new skills, network at your job, avoid negative influences in your life, things like that.

Anyone who thinks they do every possible thing to better their lives is lying to themselves.

I would give you more detailed advice, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate for a public thread. And you probably wouldn't want it anyways.

You sound like the sort of person that blames other people for your problems rather than trying to work to improve your situation.

not trying to judge, but your attitude is completely wrong, and part of the issue with welfare.

lol

[sthar8]

It's not so much that poor people couldn't do the same things rich people could, or are less deserving of wealth, but a lot of poor people get trapped in a cycle of dependancy, where they feel like they don't have a say in their success. But many wealthy people in the United States are self made, so to speak, and deserve credit for the wealth they have built for themselves.

I feel for your situation, sthar8, but I disagree that most poor people don't have a chance to get out of being poor. Most employers will readily promote someone that works hard and shows dedication to their job and talent rather than someone that feels like they are there based on entitlement. Perhaps your own attitude is the reason for your lack of success, not the upper class pushing you down.

So what exactly is it that I need to do to pull myself up by my bootstraps?

What about the kids? What are they supposed to do to just be less dependent?

This is me actively resisting the impulse to tell you to go fuck yourself for implying that my life would be better if I weren't so inferior.

Learn new skills, network at your job, avoid negative influences in your life, things like that.

Anyone who thinks they do every possible thing to better their lives is lying to themselves.

I would give you more detailed advice, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate for a public thread. And you probably wouldn't want it anyways.

You sound like the sort of person that blames other people for your problems rather than trying to work to improve your situation.

not trying to judge, but your attitude is completely wrong, and part of the issue with welfare.

I worked for two degrees before finding that under no circumstances could I hold a job in either field.

In college I ran the general services department for a law firm with 35 lawyers. I got that job by leveraging a friendship into an interview.

I don't drink to excess or use drugs. I spend most of my free time caring for other people's children at no cost. What negative influences are we looking for here?

Please, specifically tell me what to do to 'better my life.' You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions here.

And again, what is the 10 year old homeless boy who I feed sometimes supposed to do about his situation? Hard work and dedication?

And no, I don't blame anyone for anything about my life but myself. You are no more responsible for my circumstances than you are for your own.

[zoraster]

Someone has to work warehouse jobs and fast food. its one thing to give advice to someone about how they can escape poverty; it's another to confuse that with a societal response to poverty.

[sthar8]

PSA: I'm not upset or angry with Monkey. It's just that his narrative of the poor fails when applied to my life, or the kids', or my working disabled vet parents'.

[MonkeyMan576]

If you are telling a kid that he has no chance at success in his life, no matter what his circumtances, then you are doing him a disservice. Sure, a homeless kid has less chance at success than a kid of a CEO of a fortune 500 company, but there are lots of rich kids that fail and lots of poor kids that succeed.
I'm not going to tell my kids they can't be doctors or lawyers because I make $10 per hour.
Moreover, two people that were childhood friends of mine were signifiantly less off than my parents were when we were growing up, but he ended up being a laywer and she is a medicial technician. I'm sure they make well over $100K while I am making less than $30K. I don't blame society for this, and I don't say it's luck. I have made some poor decisions at some points, and I have made a decision to put my family before my career. And I don't don't say that they don't deserve their success, because they worked hard to be where they are, I'm pretty sure it wasn't luck.
But it's wrong to look down on other people that have been successfull, or look down on other people that still believe in The American Dream, because you have had bad things happen to you. Sure, some people are lucky, but there are a lot of people that work hard for their success and deserve every penny of it.

[sthar8]

I'm not looking down on anyone. Nor am I telling the kids that they can't succeed. You were the one who was talking about how people don't deserve handouts, so that whole line of thought is a strawman.

How did your friends put themselves through college?

[MonkeyMan576]

grants and loans, I'm sure.