Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[pieguyn]

I don't know why he'd be afraid of outing actual PRs when massclaim was over?

this is a fair point.

[pieguyn]

It wasn't that he got the timing wrong; his initial argument was that he was reading implosion as town because he claimed D1, with no pressure on him, when someone else was being run up and it would have been very very simple for him to get a mislynch. It's okay and natural to misremember details, sure; but when the foundation of a read on someone is something they don't remember at all, we have problems, especially when that read is a significant one.

I'm reading through this again.

When I got to his claim, his VIG claim, it was pretty baller. Reminds me of my own types of claims. Placed at the tail end of the day, when putting Anen at L-1 at a time he thought Anen could be lynched. That all seems town motivated. However, holy fuck the coincidences of EVERYONE targetting Gnomeo night 1 is really, really, really not likely.

this is what Oversoul said. my interpretation of this was that Oversoul was pretty clearly referring to implo's vig crumb back on D1 that he pulled up when he claimed as opposed to his actual claim coming from D2, which is something that he's since clarified. I know when I read a lot of stuff at once, I have a tendency to either misspeak or misremember details about what actually happened; so when I read it I assumed he was either referring to the crumb or had confused implo's vig crumb with his actual claim.

what stood out to me was that you assumed he had to be "scum forgetting when implo claimed" without actually thinking through why this might have been the case. in reality, I would expect it to be fairly unlikely scum would *actually* forget a major point like that unless they would have as town. most people are perfectly capable of remembering or otherwise being accurate about stuff that happened in the game thread as scum unless they're absolute shit at scum. so, when you said otherwise, it didn't look like you were actually trying to figure out why Oversoul would have came up with the conclusion he did or consider possibilities there. it read like you saw that what Oversoul said wasn't strictly what happened, thought it would be a good angle to push as an "inconsistency", and so there it was

I don't really think Oversoul is town anymore, but I think even if Oversoul *is* scum here, it likely isn't for this specific point. can you walk me through what your thought process here was?

[pieguyn]

Like what is your #1 scumteam and why?

{you, RC, Oversoul}.

I think you/RC and Oversoul are defending and bussing each other respectively. I can't really come up with any way this game makes any sense otherwise, assuming this is 10-3 (10-2-1 would make a fuckton of sense for why no one seems to fit together as a scum team, though).

*IF* you're town, I would be looking at {RC, Oversoul, Wicked} as a scum team, I suppose, but from there my reads are entirely fucked bc I don't know how this game works without RC as scum and you have a strong town read on him. if you have time, can you elaborate in more detail on why RC is a strong town read for you?

[Oversoul]

You spent the majority of this day saying I am town. What changed? How does your scum team change when I flip town?

[pieguyn]

You spent the majority of this day saying I am town. What changed? How does your scum team change when I flip town?

I first thought the way you reacted to your wagon looked town as fuck. then I thought about it more and figured it'd probably be a lot easier to fake the majority of it if you did most of it from a "going down in flames" POV as opposed to a "get the wagon off me" POV.

if you're town, I'd be looking at {Nacho, RC, Wicked} for scum assuming 10-3.

[Oversoul]

Why Wicked?

[pieguyn]

POE. at this point I have town reads on literally everyone else except I'm only weak town on implo and he can't be scum with RC anyway due to setup.

[Wickedestjr]

I've done most of the catching up I need to do today. The only real work I have left to do is look into Wicked some more, but something that seems weird to me is that Wicked actually let Oversoul get away with the VT-NotVT-VT claiming business and didn't drive him into the ground after that; he seems like the type who would flip the fuck out about something like that, but again, might be being judgmental again.

This isn't true. I made at least one big post explaining why I have issue with the lie. I'm not voting him, because I still thought that you were more likely to be scum.

I was frustrated, but I see no benefit to "flipping the f out" - especially when he hasn't even been around till recently.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm actually starting to like ffery as town again...

[Wickedestjr]

You spent the majority of this day saying I am town. What changed? How does your scum team change when I flip town?

I first thought the way you reacted to your wagon looked town as fuck. then I thought about it more and figured it'd probably be a lot easier to fake the majority of it if you did most of it from a "going down in flames" POV as opposed to a "get the wagon off me" POV.

Really? You just realized this now?

I'm pretty sure I made this point several days ago.

Are people even reading my posts?

[RedCoyote]

It'd be nice if instead of arguing over the same points over and over we actually went forward with a lynch.

pie, I really, really don't get how you get a scumread of me unless you think Tammy is scum, too. How do you get around setup spec? How do you get around my breadcrumb? How do you get around the accurate things you said about me earlier in this game? Doesn't make much sense to me. If I had claimed after Tammy, that would be one thing... and I'm bussing Oversoul? Really? No one so much as looked at Vinkah since the very beginning of D1. I could've easily stayed the course I was going on D2 and continued after notscience. I single-handedly turned the discussion on Vinkah, and I regret nothing. I'll live or die, win or lose on the back of that read.

And, yes, I'm not posting as much because the only questions I have are, "Why isn't Oversoul lynched yet?" "What's taking us so long to lynch Oversoul?" "When are we going to lynch Oversoul?" "Has Oversoul flipped yet?"

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Oversoul

(L-1 I believe)

The recent pages are making me think that he's more likely to be scum than Nacho. In particular, I really like Tammy's posts about him on the last few pages. Oversoul's explanations don't really make sense. I can't believe him doubting Tammy right now. But my biggest problem is this: he recently said that he was trying to determine Tammy's alignment by attracting the investigation, but this doesn't work if Tammy-scum suspects that Oversoul is a VT. I have no idea what their experience with each other is like, but I do get the impression that Oversoul thought Tammy might figure it out. So the lie still seems pointless to me.

I still think Nacho is scum, but I've come to realize that about 20-30% of that scum read is based on a legitimate play style difference that I simply can't comprehend (specifically his follow town reads strategy).

I'll be honest, I'm starting to get bored with this day/game. That has nothing to do with my Oversoul vote (I would have gladly kept my vote Nacho for another day or two). But I do feel like I'm starting to mentally detach from this game, you guys are probably noticing it, and that is why. I can explain this feeling if anyone cares/wants to know.

[RedCoyote]

No, you're detaching because it's objectively becoming boring. Oversoul has been the leading wagon all D3. notscience and Nacho have been the only alternatives all of D3. There has been zero deviation from that for the past 11 days. Unlike some games where wagons fluctuate, we've been kind of stuck in limbo.

If I didn't have my strong conviction for scum in Oversoul, I'd have probably have allowed myself to drift onto Nacho, which is definitely what pie and Oversoul wanted me to do. I see them as two peas in a pod.

[RedCoyote]

That pie would suggest I am bussing Oversoul... goodness, she must really see the walls crumbling around her, huh?

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah I guess that's (mostly) why I've started getting bored.

Eh... I don't know if pie would play this way if she was scum with Oversoul.

[Wickedestjr]

I do think her change wrt Oversoul is kinda weird though. Looking forward to her explanation

[RedCoyote]

I don't know that either.

Honestly, I've been giving her a hard time all day because, one, I thought her initial D3 notscience read was the complete opposite of mine, and two, her moving to join a Nacho wagon with notscience of all people when their respective wagons on each other weren't picking up was strange and disingenuous. Despite all that, I still had the scumteam in the flux of {implosion, Oversoul, ffrey, Nacho, pie} all day with only Oversoul for sure. Now her calling me out and suggesting that her scumteam is me, Oversoul, Nacho/Wicked? Nah, I don't buy that. That's a bridge too far.

Long ago in this game, pie stuck her neck out for me intuitively. This was when it wasn't cool to call me town. To have her go from that to where she is now when I've only grown considerably more townie from the POV of every player (I'm not exaggerating, every living player here, even pie, has called me town at one point or another... presumably, at this moment, everyone still thinks this except for pie now and possibly Oversoul) and I've claimed a role that makes a lot of sense with Tammy's role? It doesn't make sense. That's the opposite direction. That's counterintuitive.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, scratch that last paragraph. I'm conflating her with ffrey.

I still don't like that comment, but maybe it's not quite as inexplicable as my kneejerk reaction would have me believe.

[Wickedestjr]

@anyone that is familiar with pie's meta- is it common for her to change her mind a lot as town? would about as scum?

[notscience]

I'm pretty sure one of ffery/nacho if not both have already said it's indicative of town-pie.

[RedCoyote]

Good for them. I know we all want to hold hands and say we all know everybody's meta so well that there's no way we're wrong and everyone's town, but some of the players here are scum, fyi.

[fferyllt]

:/

The aggressive tunnelly aspect of Pie's town play is something shes been very successful in transplanting to her scum game IMO.

I think the hard part to transplant is the abrupt and acute read changes that tend to happen in her town game, because with all the self awarenes in the world it's still difficult to get that aspect right

[RedCoyote]

I'm starting to get a what have you done for me lately feeling from notscience. I can't help it. He has done absolutely nothing for us today.

You see, that's the problem with prolonging the day. I have these strong townreads and then I forget why because it's been so long since anything has happened. Maybe it's just me. Everyone in this game is starting to piss me off except for Nacho.

[notscience]

A what?

[RedCoyote]

To put it another way, I have a townread on you, right? But since you've been useless all day, doubt is seeping in. I'm thinking, "Yeah, I have a townread, but what has he done lately that has deserved that townread?" Make sense?