2016 US Presidential Election Thread

[inte]

right, the point i was making is that the only alternative suggested (by him) has been a flat tax which is too idealistic of a 'fair' tax code which doesn't actually benefit anyone who need tax code reform

[shaft.ed]

Also the idea that the top teir pays at a higher tax rate is hilarious to begin with

[MonkeyMan576]

Again, the idea that successfull people should be punished for things like hiring tax experts.

I would be in favor of closing tax loopholes though.

And everyone needs tax code reform, imho.

[Kublai Khan]

Why do you always equate taxing with punishment? Are you being punished by being protected by the best military force on the planet? Is your safe drinking water, clean air, and untainted foods some sort of curse that you suffer from? Is the idea that somewhere in your country children are getting a free education and not being crippled by polio giving you night terrors?

You get a lot back from your taxes. You've stated that you're not well-off. So you're actually telling us that you would prefer those more rich to pay less so that you could have less free public services. Or worse that the government becomes so broke that they have to privatize services. Meaning that you'd have to start paying for stuff you already get for free. Why?

The American rich got and stayed rich because this country gave them the freedom, the opportunity, and the safety to do so. It is their duty to pay back into the system so that others can also succeed and make the country greater as a whole.

[Venmar]

Just as a nitpick, Polio is dying as is, and most countries don't have it anymore so it was a redundant point.

Also, taxing is higher in Europe for example, where the return of wealth is also higher. For example, while in America grade school is free, in parts of Europe like Sweden, College is also equally free. Many European (+Canada) countries also have free Health Care, while America, not so much. These countries have higher tax rates, and as a result give much more back to the general public. They have an incredibly high standard of living, some exceeding the States, so it could be something for American to strive for I guess, depending on if that's the kind of government and economy system Americans would want.

[shaft.ed]

Again, the idea that successfull people should be punished for things like hiring tax experts.

I would be in favor of closing tax loopholes though.

And everyone needs tax code reform, imho.

its not even loopholes

middle/lower class make wages taxed by income tax
upper tier makes returns on investments taxed by capital gains tax

raising income taxes will only hurt celebrities, athletes and lottery winners

[Untrod Tripod]

http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/20 ... 8-edition/

somewhat relevant?

[zoraster]

Again, the idea that successfull people should be punished for things like hiring tax experts.

I would be in favor of closing tax loopholes though.

And everyone needs tax code reform, imho.

Okay, the first thing is that no one is suggesting "punishing successful people" for hiring tax experts. They're suggesting removing the REASON tax experts are able to avoid taxes for wealthy americans.


Also, the US tax code is purposefully difficult to navigate. For the vast majority of people who earn income reported on W2s (as well as other automatic forms such as 1099s), the IRS knows almost exactly what you should be paying. Many countries will automatically tell you what your bill is without having to pay anyone or use any software. That's not to say you can't file your own form or amend it or anything, but for the vast majority of Americans there would be no need. But lobbying efforts have basically blocked that (also anti-tax people tend to oppose these changes because anything that makes taxes less painful makes people hate them less).

H&R block, for example, spends a whole lot of money campaigning against ANYTHING that simplifies the tax code. and they do it successfully: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9195129/h-r-block

[catboi]

[Katsuki]

I've always been lucky enough to have a LOT of money and chances that a lot of people don't and I still support liberal policy. Because not everyone is lucky. I have money because I was born into a rich family and thats it. I haven't worked the hardest, I haven't struggled the most, I was born into it. And I am NOT an exception.

You may not have worked hard for it, but your parents may have worked hard for it to provide you with a good life.

Yes, lots of rich people work hard. Lots of them don't. I guarentee you the "poor" people work hell of a lot harder than me/my parents/ a lot of rich people ever have. I don't understand how you think hard work translates to anything when people have a head start.

I'm curious as to what makes you say this.

If I put in 50% or less effort, I'll still have more money than most of my friends who put in 100% effort. It's brutally unfair.

So is genetics.

[Psyche]

yeah fuck genetics

[sthar8]

So is genetics.

Please explain the argument you're trying to make here. Because it looks like a mostly irrelevant and poorly thought out metaphor.

[hiplop]

I've always been lucky enough to have a LOT of money and chances that a lot of people don't and I still support liberal policy. Because not everyone is lucky. I have money because I was born into a rich family and thats it. I haven't worked the hardest, I haven't struggled the most, I was born into it. And I am NOT an exception.

You may not have worked hard for it, but your parents may have worked hard for it to provide you with a good life.

they didn't.

Yes, lots of rich people work hard. Lots of them don't. I guarentee you the "poor" people work hell of a lot harder than me/my parents/ a lot of rich people ever have. I don't understand how you think hard work translates to anything when people have a head start.

I'm curious as to what makes you say this.
[/quote]
i know tons of moms who work 4 jobs. theres no way anyone can ever tell me these people don't work hard enough.

If I put in 50% or less effort, I'll still have more money than most of my friends who put in 100% effort. It's brutally unfair.

So is genetics.[/quote]
so? thats why its good to help people with challenges that i don't naturally have (ie, ramps to public buildings)

[sthar8]

ramps to public buildings

Socialist handouts!

[hiplop]

haha, I forgot. People in wheelchairs just don't work hard enough at trying to walk right

if they worked hard enough they would get a promotion and all their problems would go away

[sthar8]

hahahaha I'm telling Cyborg that the next time I see him

[Katsuki]

So is genetics.

Please explain the argument you're trying to make here. Because it looks like a mostly irrelevant and poorly thought out metaphor.

I'm not going to get into the meat of the argument here nor the specific context of hiplop's post, but a simple explanation is that not everything in life is "fair", as demonstrated by what you are given at birth. Is it fair that I can pour all my effort in to work INTELLIGENTLY to be the best basketball player, but still suck while Lebron can put in half the effort as I would in this hypothetical scenario and still be one of the best in the game? Genetically speaking, I could never be successful in sports like basketball or football, for a bunch of reasons. Same goes to making money, some are simply better at it than others, for one reason or another (I have my views on that, which I won't share here. Can possibly discuss over PM).

Spoiler: Ended up writing FAR more than I was planning to, WELP

Apparently my posts are construed as fuck poor people!

[hiplop]

no people are genetically better at a lot of those things you listed? like you don't pop out knowing more about science than others; that stuff you listed is more the things your mind deems important during vital early years of your life

basketball one, yes. but thats just an exception more than a rule

[Kublai Khan]

THis feels like we're veering off into a nature vs nurture debate.

[Katsuki]

no people are genetically better at a lot of those things you listed? like you don't pop out knowing more about science than others; that stuff you listed is more the things your mind deems important during vital early years of your life

basketball one, yes. but thats just an exception more than a rule

Different people are born with brains that are more inclined to different things.

Take Savant Syndrome for example. Autists, who may seem like retards to a great majority of the population and typically score low levels of IQ, can sometimes display amazing feats of calculation or memorization abilities that far exceeds that of the normal human mind. This can translate to these autistic savants being utter retards at most aspects of life, but possess exceptional abilities in specific processes such as microprocessor wiring, for example.

[Katsuki]

On the topic of elections, although I'm not familiar with Trump at all, I always thought he was a raving lunatic spouting whatever nonsense comes to his mind. However, he actually sounds pretty normal here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOv-F4uH28

[inte]

Trump is a personality who made money by

having too much money

. His actual business acumen is apparently terrible

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/in ... -worth.asp

[zoraster]

I'm not sure that article really proves that.

[Untrod Tripod]

Is it fair that I can pour all my effort in to work INTELLIGENTLY to be the best basketball player, but still suck while Lebron can put in half the effort as I would in this hypothetical scenario and still be one of the best in the game? Genetically speaking, I could never be successful in sports like basketball or football, for a bunch of reasons..

not to sound condescending, but it sounds like you have no idea how many outlandishly talented basketball players have failed due to lack of work ethic and how many relatively untalented players have flourished due to work ethic

genetics matter, but in a skill-based field you still have to put in the work to be the best

[inte]

I didn't particularly set out to prove that, but if you read up on a summary of his wikipedia page, you can find bits of information that might be interesting to read, if you care to see his criticisms.

in other news, "King Donald Trump's Hairy Ballsack" may be an upcoming president

http://www.fec.gov/fecviewer/CandidateC ... tabIndex=3