Mini Normal 1711: Flavor not required. D2 deadline: 9/29/15

[Shinobi]

I can dig a switch back to RC.
VOTE: RC

[catboi]

Catboi I called RadiantCowbells out for still being on his RVS vote.
He told me that there is nothing random about the vote.
I asked him to explain why he thinks Shinobi is scum, since he claims his vote was serious.
He refuses to do so.
I am not tolerating it and you shouldn't either. His behavior is promoting apathy which destroys towns in games this small. This is the scummiest thing I have seen so far, so I am voting for him.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish right now? You said you weren't going to try to convince me to unvote RC but it looks like that's exactly what you are doing. Why not let the vote play out and see RC's response rather than stifle it?

I said I didn't expect to persuade you to unvote. And so far I'm right. The conversation just turned to be about him and I'm not sure why and don't feel like looking back (because truthfully that detail isn't important). I think you're blowing things out of proportion massively by claiming him not answering one thing is "promoting apathy" when it's been basically one day and most of the players have been inactive regardless.

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all. If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

There's a strong strong difference between not approving of someone's play and thinking they're scum, and you seem to not be picking up on that difference. I want RC to play ball or go home. I don't think he's scum for not doing so, and if anything it's likely to be the opposite - town's far more likely to be obstinate and difficult in most instances, scum are looking to win people's trust.

As to what I'm hoping to accomplish, well, I wanted to get a read on you and make conversation, try to establish a baseline of understanding. Haven't succeeded at doing the latter, but I'm not that worried, I have time. If you think I'm actually stifling any pressure to get a response from RC, that's dum. Not like he's going to look at my posts and go "ah now i no longer have to defend myself thanks catboi". I'm just trying to hash things out and explain my view (which I'm pretty sure I was asked about, but again it's late)

[JeanDarc]

Something that I realized was bugging me that I overlooked:

@everyone
Random/Optional question to answer:
What is your overall experience with Mafia games (in/out of this site)? What is your favourite thing about Mafia (and why)?

What were you intending to accomplish with these questions?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jean

Just so we know who is familiar with terms and concepts versus some of players who are new and may be reluctant to post extensive reads and so forth.

[Spiffeh]

Jean who is scum/town and why?

[JeanDarc]

@spiffeh and shinobi,

other than the fact that RC didn't really explain his reads or been lurking lately, what are your scumreads on him? I think he is acting pretty normal based on the single game I've seen with him in it. He will definitely follow up eventually from what I remember.

@vijay
seemed like you wanted to follow up from your last post so looking forward to that.

@Lex

In post 113, catboi wrote:

In post 96, LexTrew wrote:
Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

I disagree with you here on your reasoning behind Shinobi townread. If anything, I agree more with catboi here:

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Shinobi

jeez, that selective quoting fucked everything up on Lex
pedit: I hope this post answers your questions, Spif

[Shinobi]

@spiffeh and shinobi,

other than the fact that RC didn't really explain his reads or been lurking lately, what are your scumreads on him? I think he is acting pretty normal based on the single game I've seen with him in it. He will definitely follow up eventually from what I remember.

@vijay
seemed like you wanted to follow up from your last post so looking forward to that.

@Lex

In post 113, catboi wrote:

In post 96, LexTrew wrote:
Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

Uh not really, I have seen town get frustated more often than scum. Besides it just looked like he was trying to move the game foward. But I dont like his posts in page 5 at all actually, that unvote is really scummy.

I disagree with you here on your reasoning behind Shinobi townread. If anything, I agree more with catboi here:

Shinobi strikes me as town. His frustation seems genuine and I can certainly understand it.

Lol, how? If anything, the fact that he got frustrated with an unerexplained page 1 vote makes him more likely to be scum.

VOTE: Shinobi

jeez, that selective quoting fucked everything up on Lex
pedit: I hope this post answers your questions, Spif

How so?
Is your vote motivated by me voting you in the first place or no?

[Shinobi]

And what did you get out of your question?
Who else is scum and why?

[Shinobi]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

[JeanDarc]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

my vote on RC was for rxn testing - but he seems pretty normal to me (as i said in my previous post). I do expect him to explain/follow up later on

And what did you get out of your question?
Who else is scum and why?

I have townreads on catboi and kyubei for now. Not certain on everyone else. Scorp is town lean for me at the moment

and obviously, you are my scum read

[Shinobi]

Cool.
Who else is mafia?

[Shinobi]

What is with this bit where people are getting super hung up on one scumread and refuse to go further than that?
It's so frustrating.

[Spiffeh]

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all.

If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

He is making people not care by setting a standard that ignoring questions is fine. If he's town, scum can follow his lead and act the same way to make it more difficult to catch them later on. That is anti-town behavior. And while I agree anti-town is not equal to scum, it is still the scummIEST thing to me so far. As for the bolded, how am I supposed to know if he actually has a reason? How would you know if he refuses to give it? You're giving him the benefit of the doubt for no reason.

Tell me, if he was voting for you and refused to give an explanation, would you not ask why? After he refused to give an explanation, would you not press him?

[Spiffeh]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

I want Jean to answer this too.

[Shinobi]

And why did you vote RC in the first place if you know he acts like this as town?

I want Jean to answer this too.

He claimed it was for reaction testing but it still seems kinda weak.
Dnu.

I'm probably biased because he's voting me.
What do you think of him?

[Kyubey The Kid]

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all. If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

He is making people not care by setting a standard that ignoring questions is fine.

If he's town, scum can follow his lead and act the same way to make it more difficult to catch them later on. That is anti-town behavior. And while I agree anti-town is not equal to scum, it is still the scummIEST thing to me so far.

As for the bolded, how am I supposed to know if he actually has a reason? How would you know if he refuses to give it? You're giving him the benefit of the doubt for no reason.

Tell me, if he was voting for you and refused to give an explanation, would you not ask why? After he refused to give an explanation, would you not press him?

Ok that convinced me. Even if he isn't scum, his attitude isn't helping anyone here. I'll vote for him until he shows up and convinces me otherwise.

VOTE: RC

[Shinobi]

Kyubey what do you think of Jean?

[Kyubey The Kid]

While I can't really townread anyone at the moment, I'd lean more towards Jean being town than not. He hasn't done anything that would stand out as either alignment, but since his approach has been more investigative than accusative, my gut tells me he's town. That said, I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything. I don't agree with him voting for you though.

[Ranmaru]

Votecount 1.6

Shinobi:

catboi, RadiantCowbells, JeanDarc

Scorpious:

Lextrew, vijay2vasandani

Spiffeh
JeanDarc
LexTrew
vijay2vasandani
Kyubey The Kid
RadiantCowbells:

Spiffeh, Shinobi, Kyubey The Kid

catboi

Not Voting

:
Scorpious

*= Currently being replaced
**= V/la

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline for Day 1 is Tuesday, September 8th, 11:59 PM EST.

[catboi]

Actually, further than that, it's pretty silly to suggest that "promoting apathy" is a tactic used by scum, especially in this instance. He intends to make people not care...by pissing them off? This reasoning doesn't really jive at all.

If you thought he was unable to explain his read because it's not real and has no reasoning, I could see someone thinking that - but this as an accusation seems pretty nonsensical to me.

He is making people not care by setting a standard that ignoring questions is fine. If he's town, scum can follow his lead and act the same way to make it more difficult to catch them later on. That is anti-town behavior. And while I agree anti-town is not equal to scum, it is still the scummIEST thing to me so far. As for the bolded, how am I supposed to know if he actually has a reason? How would you know if he refuses to give it? You're giving him the benefit of the doubt for no reason.

Tell me, if he was voting for you and refused to give an explanation, would you not ask why? After he refused to give an explanation, would you not press him?

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Point me to anyone who's been made to "not care" by what RC has been posting? I think you're not looking deep enough if you think that's really the scummiest thing to have gone on. People aren't really made to behave in an antagonistic fashion just because they're scum and I'm not sure what has you convinced of that.

The reason I'm giving him the benefit of the doub is because I'm assuming he's not terrible and doesn't vote without reason. Very likely given the timing of what he's said that he's reading things similarly, and overall frustrated tone of his recent posts has me leaning toward him being town. I'm completely willing to re-evaluate if he tries to coast through the game but right now at this moment I don't think it's a worthy read at all. That's not "no reason" at all, I'm making an evaluation based on his posts because I understand the way he's playing the game, or at least I think I do.

In all honesty I think you're scumreading his playstyle just because you don't like it and that's a very narrowminded way to play the game.

I'm not going to stop criticizing a read that's based on faulty premises. Considering you're the one who asked me why I think he's the wrong vote in 165, you shouldn't complain about me when I actually do what you ask and explain my read.

Ok that convinced me. Even if he isn't scum, his attitude isn't helping anyone here. I'll vote for him until he shows up and convinces me otherwise.

VOTE: RC

This right here is not a good post.

While I can't really townread anyone at the moment, I'd lean more towards Jean being town than not. He hasn't done anything that would stand out as either alignment, but since his approach has been more investigative than accusative, my gut tells me he's town. That said, I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything. I don't agree with him voting for you though.

Why is being "investigative" more likely to make someone town?

[Spiffeh]

Catboi what things other than your Shinobi read (I've already stated why I disagree with you there) should I find scummier than RC?

[Kyubey The Kid]

While I can't really townread anyone at the moment, I'd lean more towards Jean being town than not. He hasn't done anything that would stand out as either alignment, but since his approach has been more investigative than accusative, my gut tells me he's town. That said, I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything. I don't agree with him voting for you though.

Why is being "investigative" more likely to make someone town?

Because of what drives both sides. Unlike townies, who are supposed to be motivated to find out who is who, scum's objective in the game is to mislead others into lynching the wrong person. In other words, they're not in it to find out anyone's alignment because they already possess that info. If the majority of posts someone has are at their core just accusations, then it's more likely for that person be scum than not. Of course everyone HAS to accuse at some point, and the frequency of accusations someone does is also very dependent on play style, so this isn't exactly a foolproof method of identifying scum. On average though, I've found it wiser to be more suspicious of those who just accuse and don't make it a priority to explain their reasoning over those who try to understand the other players and explain their thought process to everyone without being forced to. It's not that being investigative proves innocence (since a good scum should already knows this and will therefore try to be as investigative as possible); It's that accusing a lot makes people more suspicious of everyone and therefore makes it harder for the townies to band together, which at the very least is anti-town. This is largely based on my preference in play style and how I think so I'm not really asking people to base their suspicions on what is largely just my gut instinct.

[catboi]

Catboi what things other than your Shinobi read (I've already stated why I disagree with you there) should I find scummier than RC?

Okay you're just outright not listening at this point, all I can ask is you take time to consider what I've said and why I'm reading things that way, as well as the reasoning for everything I've done, because I'm at a loss as to how to get through to you

Because of what drives both sides. Unlike townies, who are supposed to be motivated to find out who is who, scum's objective in the game is to mislead others into lynching the wrong person. In other words, they're not in it to find out anyone's alignment because they already possess that info. If the majority of posts someone has are at their core just accusations, then it's more likely for that person be scum than not. Of course everyone HAS to accuse at some point, and the frequency of accusations someone does is also very dependent on play style, so this isn't exactly a foolproof method of identifying scum. On average though, I've found it wiser to be more suspicious of those who just accuse and don't make it a priority to explain their reasoning over those who try to understand the other players and explain their thought process to everyone without being forced to. It's not that being investigative proves innocence (since a good scum should already knows this and will therefore try to be as investigative as possible); It's that accusing a lot makes people more suspicious of everyone and therefore makes it harder for the townies to band together, which at the very least is anti-town. This is largely based on my preference in play style and how I think so I'm not really asking people to base their suspicions on what is largely just my gut instinct.

Right, this is what I'd realized you'd meant shortly after you'd posted it, which is fine and makes sense. Not totally sure I see what you see in jean (I don't feel like he's said enough for me to get a decent read on him), but I get it.

[Spiffeh]

Is anyone else not understanding what catboi's issue with me is? If someone else does could they please explain it to me?

And catboi I still want an answer: Who else is scummy other than Shinobi?

[Spiffeh]

I am gonna reread your posts and hopefully get back to because at this point in time I don't know what you want from me lol

[catboi]

Is anyone else not understanding what catboi's issue with me is? If someone else does could they please explain it to me?

And catboi I still want an answer: Who else is scummy other than Shinobi?

I'm trying to reach some level of understanding here, that's all. I'm clearly failing.

Right now given a 9 player setup it's reasonable to assume 2 scum players, I'm not totally comfortable advancing a secondary read beyond Shinobi at this point in time because there are a few too many inactive players. Hopefully with a little more content from those players I can make an evaluation. I have some ideas but I'm fine deciding to wait and see on them. Right now lean toward you, scorp, and rc being town. kyubey i'm more unsure on - some posts generally come across as newbtown, but the way they've advanced certain votes has struck me as odd in a way that's difficult to explain. it might be nothing, I'm not sure, don't feel it's worth pressing on at this point in time because I haven't really fully grasped why I don't like it myself.