Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[notscience]

For starters,

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5645798

Looks like

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7184253

And I'd say that his play here looks very much like going through the motions to defend himself. There, as a "townie" he knows his "mislynch" ends up in having to look elsewhere- here his mislynch ends up in a town loss. So literally the only motions he can go through are trying to convince us he's town and to look elsewhere.

[notscience]

I frankly think majority of it is chalked up to gamestate.

[fferyllt]

For starters,

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5645798

Looks like

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7184253

And I'd say that his play here looks very much like going through the motions to defend himself. There, as a "townie" he knows his "mislynch" ends up in having to look elsewhere- here his mislynch ends up in a town loss. So literally the only motions he can go through are trying to convince us he's town and to look elsewhere.

There are similarities. The differences is emotional - distraught/lost vs bored.

I think I need to look at some other games.

[fferyllt]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7112314 - scum game where he's under pressure


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5731152 - town game where he's under pressure (was lynched day 1)

also this one http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5731131 from the same game.

[notscience]

See, I feel like there's more emotion in that scumgame than the towngame.

[Empire]

DAY 4, VOTECOUNT 3

Wickedestjr (1)

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RedCoyote

Not Voting (5)

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Wickedestjr, fferyllt, notscience, implosion, pieguyn

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch! Deadline is on September 11th at 7:10 PM EST or in (expired on 2015-09-11 19:10:17).

Mod Notes - N/A

[fferyllt]

See, I feel like there's more emotion in that scumgame than the towngame.

The emotions are different, for sure. I'd like to find a town game where he came under pressure late in the game. Might have time to do that tonight.

Overall, I'm feeling like these games point a little toward scum-RC, though not in a huge way. it's a riduculous sample size.

[notscience]

I agree on that.

[pieguyn]

my impression of RC's play this game day is just that he's playing the "I have nothing left for this game" card really hard in order to hopefully get town read as resignated town. I'm not reading too much into it and it definitely doesn't make me want to question my reads on either of you.

I don't really have any reservations about Wicked/RC and am more than ready to lynch either if you all are.

[fferyllt]

Implosion is v/la until sometime today or tomorrow. I want to hear his thoughts.

[notscience]

Mhm.

[implosion]

I think tomorrow if I can find time I'm basically going to put together the best case that I can for RC being town, for public scrutiny, because I still have trouble getting over my townread on him. Still pretty low on time because seeing friends for first time since before summer.

Apart from that I really don't have a ton to input here - I want to look at the possibility of a wicked/ffery team a bit.

[fferyllt]

If you're right about RC, then you need to look at other possibilities as well.

It will be worth your time to look at some of the game links I've dug up so far. hopefully more to come.

[fferyllt]

Damnit, ffrey. I'm sorry. I feel like I really let this town down.

I have no idea how to scumhunt anymore.

This is a strange thing to say given your reads earlier this summer in Eclipse Mafia. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=61783

I'm still looking through games for a town game where you came under pressure similar to this one.

[RedCoyote]

ffrey, really? I replaced in on D2 and was shot on N2. I wasn't even around long enough to see a flip. Further, I was ultimately wrong with two of my three main scumreads in that game.

Other than my alignment, there's pretty much no similarities between those games.

[RedCoyote]

To clarify because I kind of worded that poorly, there's pretty much no similarities between this game and Eclipse.

[fferyllt]

I found a game with a lot of pressure, but not so similar to this one: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62192

RC was lynched on day 2. he replaced in and was under time pressure from the start. he mentioned being despondent at one point, but the despondency was about excessive replace-outs and lurking with no deadline adjustments, not about his play.

I have looked at so many games my eyes are bleeding. I think what I'm concluding is that RC is passionate about the game and has a drive to play on and keep trying no matter the situation, especially as town, though he clearly prefers being scum. he gets irritated with lackadaisical play from town players.

The Bees game above pretty much exemplifies this, in terms of what sorts of behaviors he dislikes, though I also saw some similar concerns regarding poor play in Fakegod's Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires game.

This game definitely hasn't pushed those buttons. We didn't have a ton of replacements, the game hasn't been marred by vast periods of Sargasso Sea, and the replacements we got were strong players.

I'm 2 pages back in his ego search and haven't found a game where he gave up and ceded agency to another player the way he has here.
I'm sympathetic because much of Day 3 was a low spot for me, but I feel like if I have found the backbone to forge on and keep trying to solve the game, why hasn't he? But, I didn't lead, push and chivvy a lynch on a player who flipped town.

I guess that's the point. I haven't found a game where he pushed hard for a lynch and gave up when the player flipped town, not a long game like this one.


There was one game we played (I was in the Sangres hydra) where he was town and the game went on forever (200+ pages was still unusual at that time) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

The length of days, tons of posting, etc irritated him, but he was never despondent - just kinda wanted to lynch some of the noise if I recall correctly. he survived to the end and helped lynch the last scum.

[fferyllt]

ffrey, really? I replaced in on D2 and was shot on N2. I wasn't even around long enough to see a flip. Further, I was ultimately wrong with two of my three main scumreads in that game.

Other than my alignment, there's pretty much no similarities between those games.

From my read it looked like you had two of the three scum pegged, but thought ABR was town? You misread some town players as well, iirc. Did I miss somethng?

[Wickedestjr]

Will post tonight

[RedCoyote]

Did I miss somethng?

Well, I went back and forth on Juls, but ultimately I moved her back to a townread. Had I gotten further in the game, I may have went back, but I was 1 for 3 in what I would consider my "final" three scumpicks in the game. Though now that you have me looking back, Sotty had a cop that game which would've probably had Juls back on my scumlist... Anyway, we're splitting hairs.

ffrey, you really want me to find comparable meta to this one? I haven't been speaking much to this subject because it's totally self-serving for me to chime in, imo, but when you're seriously bringing up Eclipse Mafia as a good comparison, I'm skeptical of your decisions. All joking aside about how you can read me better than I can myself (regardless of what happens this game, I remain impressed with the accurate nature of some of the things you said about me earlier this game), I do have to live with myself. Thus, I know a thing or two about how I act in certain situations. Eclipse Mafia in no way, shape or form is indicative of my mindset here. We're talking polar opposites because that was me at peak confidence. Let me bring up three town games which are more better indicators of where my mind is at:

Subject: ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

...Oh, wait, it wasn't podium. It was Kcda. D:

Ah, screw it. I made too many mistakes here. I don't really know what's going on anyways.

Vote: implosion

The best I can figure is that the ATHF are the actual bad guys. Well, whatever. You guys can lynch me if you want.

Not quite the same situation (this had to do with me misreading my PR results), but the effect is the same. As town, if I think I'm not really helping the town's chances, I turn a bit morose. I dislike being unhelpful. In this situation, I had fumbled my role results twice and didn't think it was reasonable to expect the rest of the town to still see me as genuine. Similar to this game, I see myself making one bad move (hammering town), after another (pushing Vinkah to the point where he replaces out), after another (being unable to draw a NK), after another (having to claim), after another (pursuing townOversoul), after another (effectively aiding Nacho's intent to draw a shot from implosion) after another (being unable to articulate how clear it is in my mind that Tammy's role should necessarily give you, if not total 100% comfort that my role claim is genuine, at least a strong sense of doubt in the possibility that I'm scum ... and this isn't speaking to you necessarily, ffrey, moreso to pie/ns). So the culmination of all those things gives me pains in my stomach that are only being prolonged as I feel like I see the writing on the wall going into D4.

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Subject: DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

I see your point, inHim. My intention is not to derail the AV wagon but to prop up the dana wagon.

Mmm, this is a bit frustrating now because I see where y'all are coming from. I wasn't intending to pull any sort of trick. I, uh, I think I'm being a little too analytical and distant for my own good here. I think I'll just stop talking for a while.

Combing through my memory banks, this is probably the closest I can get to the genuine, "crap, I wish I had done something things different" that I am having in this game. Here is a situation where I was lynched on D1 after actually being seen as relatively townie most of the day. My top scumread at the time was the leading wagon and I was riding high. Late into the day, I suggested that another wagon should also get some attention so that the town may benefit further down the line from an atmosphere where there were two competing wagons, but I phrased it poorly and was pounced on by a number of players. As I tried to clarify my comments, I seemed to be digging myself into a deeper hole which led to the quoted post. I thought the best thing I could do when I saw myself in real danger of being lynched was to try and take a step back and tell everyone that I would remove myself from the conversation. I think it's easy to draw a line between what I am doing in the quoted post with what I am doing in this game.

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Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

I'm sorry. I want to really make a good post, but I just don't really disagree with Ythill. I want to come in an make some super convincing post, but I'm just no match for those intellecutal muscles of his. Honestly I'm not even trying to butter him up, these are just really solid posts. hito, too, has got a good flow going. I don't see mallow giving us any alternatives to look at, and I don't really disagree with his wagon.

Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

Ugh, I had to go re-read my PM. Ythill had me convinced I was scum.

Seriously though, I really feel bad. Ythill is putting more effort into this game than I've ever seen anyone do in a game of mafia. I simply don't have that level of dedication.

Now, like the above scenario where I said that was probably the closest match to my own personal mood, this is probably closest to "ffrey, I'm sorry. I feel like I let this town down." I replaced into this game very late, but Ythill replaced in even later. From the start I never really was able to get a good feel for the game, and, not long after replacing in, two of my big scumreads flipped town. That took a blow to my self-esteem and scumhunting ability. So much so that I effectively conceded that Ythill's reads were stronger and better than anything I could come up with. I was so in the tank for Ythill that I made that second post I quoted. Again, highly emotional. The reason for these quotes were due to the fact that I was not confident in my scumhunting abilities (and, in fact, the only reason we won that game was due to heavy scum lurking) and that I basically allowed myself to take a completely passive role for the remainder of the game until lylo.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

much

better indicators

[RedCoyote]

Man, reading back over DEFCON 3.0... talk about a blunder, lol. I forgot how much of a silly move that was. That is a pretty good read. The other two, eh, not so much.

[fferyllt]

Did I miss somethng?

Well, I went back and forth on Juls, but ultimately I moved her back to a townread. Had I gotten further in the game, I may have went back, but I was 1 for 3 in what I would consider my "final" three scumpicks in the game. Though now that you have me looking back, Sotty had a cop that game which would've probably had Juls back on my scumlist... Anyway, we're splitting hairs.

ffrey, you really want me to find comparable meta to this one? I haven't been speaking much to this subject because it's totally self-serving for me to chime in, imo, but when you're seriously bringing up Eclipse Mafia as a good comparison, I'm skeptical of your decisions. All joking aside about how you can read me better than I can myself (regardless of what happens this game, I remain impressed with the accurate nature of some of the things you said about me earlier this game), I do have to live with myself. Thus, I know a thing or two about how I act in certain situations. Eclipse Mafia in no way, shape or form is indicative of my mindset here. We're talking polar opposites because that was me at peak confidence. Let me bring up three town games which are more better indicators of where my mind is at:

Subject: ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

...Oh, wait, it wasn't podium. It was Kcda. D:

Ah, screw it. I made too many mistakes here. I don't really know what's going on anyways.

Vote: implosion

The best I can figure is that the ATHF are the actual bad guys. Well, whatever. You guys can lynch me if you want.

Not quite the same situation (this had to do with me misreading my PR results), but the effect is the same. As town, if I think I'm not really helping the town's chances, I turn a bit morose. I dislike being unhelpful. In this situation, I had fumbled my role results twice and didn't think it was reasonable to expect the rest of the town to still see me as genuine. Similar to this game, I see myself making one bad move (hammering town), after another (pushing Vinkah to the point where he replaces out), after another (being unable to draw a NK), after another (having to claim), after another (pursuing townOversoul), after another (effectively aiding Nacho's intent to draw a shot from implosion) after another (being unable to articulate how clear it is in my mind that Tammy's role should necessarily give you, if not total 100% comfort that my role claim is genuine, at least a strong sense of doubt in the possibility that I'm scum ... and this isn't speaking to you necessarily, ffrey, moreso to pie/ns). So the culmination of all those things gives me pains in my stomach that are only being prolonged as I feel like I see the writing on the wall going into D4.

---

Subject: DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

I see your point, inHim. My intention is not to derail the AV wagon but to prop up the dana wagon.

Mmm, this is a bit frustrating now because I see where y'all are coming from. I wasn't intending to pull any sort of trick. I, uh, I think I'm being a little too analytical and distant for my own good here. I think I'll just stop talking for a while.

Combing through my memory banks, this is probably the closest I can get to the genuine, "crap, I wish I had done something things different" that I am having in this game. Here is a situation where I was lynched on D1 after actually being seen as relatively townie most of the day. My top scumread at the time was the leading wagon and I was riding high. Late into the day, I suggested that another wagon should also get some attention so that the town may benefit further down the line from an atmosphere where there were two competing wagons, but I phrased it poorly and was pounced on by a number of players. As I tried to clarify my comments, I seemed to be digging myself into a deeper hole which led to the quoted post. I thought the best thing I could do when I saw myself in real danger of being lynched was to try and take a step back and tell everyone that I would remove myself from the conversation. I think it's easy to draw a line between what I am doing in the quoted post with what I am doing in this game.

---

Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

I'm sorry. I want to really make a good post, but I just don't really disagree with Ythill. I want to come in an make some super convincing post, but I'm just no match for those intellecutal muscles of his. Honestly I'm not even trying to butter him up, these are just really solid posts. hito, too, has got a good flow going. I don't see mallow giving us any alternatives to look at, and I don't really disagree with his wagon.

Subject: Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

Ugh, I had to go re-read my PM. Ythill had me convinced I was scum.

Seriously though, I really feel bad. Ythill is putting more effort into this game than I've ever seen anyone do in a game of mafia. I simply don't have that level of dedication.

Now, like the above scenario where I said that was probably the closest match to my own personal mood, this is probably closest to "ffrey, I'm sorry. I feel like I let this town down." I replaced into this game very late, but Ythill replaced in even later. From the start I never really was able to get a good feel for the game, and, not long after replacing in, two of my big scumreads flipped town. That took a blow to my self-esteem and scumhunting ability. So much so that I effectively conceded that Ythill's reads were stronger and better than anything I could come up with. I was so in the tank for Ythill that I made that second post I quoted. Again, highly emotional. The reason for these quotes were due to the fact that I was not confident in my scumhunting abilities (and, in fact, the only reason we won that game was due to heavy scum lurking) and that I basically allowed myself to take a completely passive role for the remainder of the game until lylo.

I don't think Eclipse is a good comparison to this game. It just struck me as odd that you posted about how bad you've gotten at scumhunting as I was reading that game.

I'll look at the game you've linked. Thanks!

[fferyllt]

I'm also curious what you made of my 3042?

[RedCoyote]

3042? I addressed it. See the very top paragraph of 3044.