Mini Normal 1711: Flavor not required. D2 deadline: 9/29/15

[catboi]

that feels like a really inappropriate replacement given the context of everything that's happened since, as well as the lack of any explicit forbiddance in the ruleset of what he did

Oh the covenant thing was just a comment about the player you replaced leaving so early. I don't have any inside jokes here since I don't know I anyone on this forum.

In my analysis I said that RC's guilt is strong evidence for Catboi's guilt, but you seem to think otherwise. He's been behaving like RC, except that he actually tries to discuss the game sometimes. He's been defending RC to an extreme that a townie shouldn't be able to do without just being very trusting of him, unlike Spiffeh who pressed RC before deciding he's town. I think it's more likely that Catboi and RC are working together than RC being guilty and Catboi just naively believing in him without question.

One day you'll realize people are capable of recognizing when someone's town and strongly defending them. Already fairly outlined why it's clear I've read him as town and to assume no town player could ever do so is obnoxious/arrogant

scorp's back to being actually town, though he should maybe quit being paranoid of me and read my actual posts

[LexTrew]

Ok after sitting down, thinking about it, constantly re-writing, thinking some more, and re-writing again, this is my analysis.

I am absolutely sure about the following:

Out of Shinobi and Catboi, at the very least one has to be a townie.

Well, obviously? No scum would bus his partner that hard in D1.

That being said, the 3 remaining combinations (which are Townie/Townie, Scum/Townie, and Townie/Scum) point towards it being more likely for one of them to be scum than for both of them to be innocent, since a probability of 2/3 (both combinations of Townie/Scum) is higher than one of 1/3 (Townie/Townie).

This is shit but im too lazy to explain why.

The rest of this is pure speculation and assumptions on my part so don't believe anything of it blindly:

Im basing the rest of this on the above paragraph, the fact that the majority of votes is split between RC/Shinobi, and that throughout the whole game Catboi/RC and Spiffeh/Shinobi have had the same votes.

I strongly believe that RC is the bad guys here.

I can't say the same of Shinobi/Spiffeh, since both of them weren't as quick to NOT be suspicious of one another, unlike Catboi/RC who've been drawing suspicion of one another while sharing the same vote all game. Catboi explained that he wasn't suspicious of him because he thought they shared the same thought process, mostly because at that point RC was the only person who thought Shinobi was scum. Unless Catboi can give a more compelling reason than "the way he thinks led him to the same conclusion as me" for his lower level suspicion towards RC than most other people, then it's pretty damn obvious that RC's the scum. But even if he gave a good explanation for his trusting, that would just mean he trusts RC, i.e. not strong evidence of RC's innocence.

I dont see how the fact that the votes are split or that Catboi is town reading RC has anything to do with RC's alignment.

Radiant Cowbells

-Disengaged,abrasive,not doing anything but promote apathy. Nothing about any of these behaviors is pro town. If you are town,and you vote yourself. YOU ARE NOT HELPING TOWN!!! Lynch this today.. SCUM

antitown = scum. Im actually pretty confident that RC is town now. I mean yes he is being annoying an all, but thats not how I expect scum to play. At all.

I just want to say that I might have actually bought RC's current argument had he said it before he started getting obnoxiously unhelpful and calling arguments shit instead of providing insight of his own, like he's doing now. The strange thing here is that this seems like a lot of effort for proof of innocence coming from someone that had previously expressed his apathy about winning as town. THE GUY WANTED TO LYNCH HIMSELF FFS!!! Am I the only one who finds it weird that all of a sudden, when the pressure is on, he's suddenly being cooperative? From my POV, it would make more sense for him to just keep his previous attitude if he really didn't care about this game.

Because what scum want is to lynch themselves... And no I dont think thats weird.

[LexTrew]

Actually I think we should lynch KTK

VOTE: Kyubey

[LexTrew]

Im trying to stay away from all the Shinobi/catboi thing from now btw.

[catboi]

Why do you want to lynch kyubey, exactly?

[LexTrew]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

[Kyubey The Kid]

Oh the covenant thing was just a comment about the player you replaced leaving so early. I don't have any inside jokes here since I don't know I anyone on this forum.

In my analysis I said that RC's guilt is strong evidence for Catboi's guilt, but you seem to think otherwise. He's been behaving like RC, except that he actually tries to discuss the game sometimes. He's been defending RC to an extreme that a townie shouldn't be able to do without just being very trusting of him, unlike Spiffeh who pressed RC before deciding he's town. I think it's more likely that Catboi and RC are working together than RC being guilty and Catboi just naively believing in him without question.

One day you'll realize people are capable of recognizing when someone's town and strongly defending them. Already fairly outlined why it's clear I've read him as town and to assume no town player could ever do so is obnoxious/arrogant

This is the same condescending non-answer bs I've been hearing all game. Theres no way to just "know" that someone's town so much that'd you'd go out of your way to strongly defend them this early in the game, without doubting them first , even for a little bit. You've been basically saying "RC's good because there's literally no way he could deceive me and I know that I'm good, and anyone who doesn't see that is dumb.", or at least that's what I'm understanding as of the moment. All I want to know is the "why?" behind this reasoning, and you've given me nothing but empty responses that don't even contemplate for one second the possibility that I might not be 100% wrong. I just want to know WHY I'm wrong.

[Kyubey The Kid]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

Care to back up your read with an explanation, or is that also a noob question?

[catboi]

This is the same condescending non-answer bs I've been hearing all game. Theres no way to just "know" that someone's town so much that'd you'd go out of your way to strongly defend them this early in the game, without doubting them first , even for a little bit. You've been basically saying "RC's good because there's literally no way he could deceive me and I know that I'm good, and anyone who doesn't see that is dumb.", or at least that's what I'm understanding as of the moment. All I want to know is the "why?" behind this reasoning, and you've given me nothing but empty responses that don't even contemplate for one second the possibility that I might not be 100% wrong. I just want to know WHY I'm wrong.

I believe I've repeatedly answered multiple times as to why I think he's town, and your summary resembles nothing of what I've said.

I'll restate it simply, in bullet point form:

- The way he played initially seemed very much in line with my own thoughts.

- The way he expressed doubt over me handing out townreads showed an active though process, he wasn't just blindly kissing up to me but actively considering what was being posted

- The way he's responded to pressure has been with a strong emotional outburst that read very much as genuine frustration to me and that sort of thing is far more likely to come from town than scum. It's not that easy to fake the sort of rage and frustration he was showing.

[LexTrew]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

Care to back up your read with an explanation, or is that also a noob question?

Its harder for new scum to make sense than for new town. Well in my experience anyway.

[catboi]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

Missed this. This really doesn't help me, man. I need to see inside your head some or it's not going to help my read on either of you.

Truthfully I've been wondering if kyubey is the sort of player who thinks as scum they can ensorcel others with strings of overwrought logic so as to render themselves untouchable. Your point in 326 that you were "too lazy" to explain is actually a very good point if I'm reading into it correctly

[LexTrew]

Huh, Im sorry, I know what you mean, Im just really bad at explaining some specific things, and the difference between newbscum and town is one of them.

It doesnt help that english is not my native language. Fuck, wtf im doing I should stop playing mafia.

[Kyubey The Kid]

I think he is newbscum, I mean I understand why you think he is town, im just leaning the other way.

Care to back up your read with an explanation, or is that also a noob question?

Its harder for new scum to make sense than for new town. Well in my experience anyway.

If you want me to make sense, tell me why Im not making sense to you. All Im asking is for people allow me to explain whatever specific things they don't agree with in my reasoning, so that if I see something that's actually flawed on my part I can correct it quickly. I'm entirely willing to change my opinion but people just seem to discredit my arguments instead of allowing me to explain it through whatever parts you dont agree with. This way we would all be working together towards figuring out this whole mess, which is the strongest move that town could do early on. All I want is communication between all players.

[catboi]

Huh, Im sorry, I know what you mean, Im just really bad at explaining some specific things, and the difference between newbscum and town is one of them.

It doesnt help that english is not my native language. Fuck, wtf im doing I should stop playing mafia.

It's okay, just try your best. You shouldn't feel bad at all. You're doing all right but it helps my read of you if you can explain things as best as you can. Was honestly suspicious of you before today as a lot of your posts seemed passive but I find what you're saying now interesting and was just hoping to get a better sense of your reasoning.

[Kyubey The Kid]

This is the same condescending non-answer bs I've been hearing all game. Theres no way to just "know" that someone's town so much that'd you'd go out of your way to strongly defend them this early in the game, without doubting them first , even for a little bit. You've been basically saying "RC's good because there's literally no way he could deceive me and I know that I'm good, and anyone who doesn't see that is dumb.", or at least that's what I'm understanding as of the moment. All I want to know is the "why?" behind this reasoning, and you've given me nothing but empty responses that don't even contemplate for one second the possibility that I might not be 100% wrong. I just want to know WHY I'm wrong.

I believe I've repeatedly answered multiple times as to why I think he's town, and your summary resembles nothing of what I've said.

I'll restate it simply, in bullet point form:

- The way he played initially seemed very much in line with my own thoughts.

- The way he expressed doubt over me handing out townreads showed an active though process, he wasn't just blindly kissing up to me but actively considering what was being posted

- The way he's responded to pressure has been with a strong emotional outburst that read very much as genuine frustration to me and that sort of thing is far more likely to come from town than scum. It's not that easy to fake the sort of rage and frustration he was showing.

Thank you Cabboi this is all I wanted. No condescending remark, no unnecessary comments, and you actually explained your reasoning to me. I think we're both disagreeing in some of the facts because we're interpreting one very important thing differently. While you believe that RC had an emotional outburst; I believe that his actions were calculated. Why? Well:

1) He'd been nothing but unhelpful and rude well before his "emotional outburst". Everyone, even you if I remember correctly, agreed that at the very least his actions were anti-town. I know everyone likes to parrot "anti-town does not = scum", but actions that are anti-town should be seen as at least a very reasonable cause of suspicion. Your defending of him right after I started suspecting him is what triggered my alarms, but now that I think about, I can see that drawing a connection between you two was probably hasty on my part and I apologize for that.

2) When he had his "emotional outburst" none of his comments or the way he treated us were out of line with what he had said earlier. He was a douchebag all game. So when I saw his meltdown, I didn't think I should take it at face value without some evidence to back it up. Since he kept being unhelpful to me, and you quickly took his actions as proof of innocence, your defending of him was something that I took as proof of guilt.

I actually think all of this mess can be settled if we discuss and agree on the following:

Is it not wise to keep in perspective that that RC could be entirely capable of planning his outrage in advance considering the fact that there wasn't any real change in his behavior until it looked like the only way to get some heat off him? I mean he was disrespectful and claimed to not care about this game (long before his "outburst"), but then quickly tried to be helpful just before his douchey attitude was about to get him lynched.

Can you blame me for believing any of this? I don't have a problem not believing any of this, since if Im proven wrong then I would move on to be suspicious of someone like Shinobi who would look pretty bad if RC turned out to be innocent.

[catboi]

apropos of nothing, remembered that 242 from kyubei looked fairly townish. fakeable? absolutely, but not common to give the sort of consideration he did with that post. Of course some of the reasoning earlier in the post is...not great, but for the most part it seems genuine.

[Ranmaru]

On the topic of RC, I want people to:

1. Have fun
2. Play the game

---

RC has already broken rule 2, which helps to making the game less fun. If

most

of the players are ok with him staying, then I'll let him stay and let him consider it as a warning. (In which if he breaks it again I'll definitely force replace without another chance)

[Shinobi]

On the topic of RC, I want people to:

1. Have fun
2. Play the game

---

RC has already broken rule 2, which helps to making the game less fun. If

most

of the players are ok with him staying, then I'll let him stay and let him consider it as a warning. (In which if he breaks it again I'll definitely force replace without another chance)

I'm okay with him staying if he actually plays. It seemed like he was on the right track before the replace, imo.

[Kyubey The Kid]

I'm not. The guy's a jerk.

[RadiantCowbells]

Town: Catboi, Scorpious, RC
Leaning town: KTK, Shinobi
Prob scum: Lextrew

Null on everyone else.

Cheers, GL with my replacement, etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mixed up Jeandarc and Lextrew.

If you're going to listen to any of my reads when I'm gone, it'll be to lynch Jeandarc.

VOTE: Jeandarc

Final post, bye!

[vijay2vasandani]

UNVOTE: Catboi

What warranted this, exactly?
Where else would you vote at this point in time?

it was a joke vote, I think its safe to say RVS is over..

I'm still waiting for more content to decide where to go.. More than enough time

I get that RVS is over, but do you really think your vote is better off not being used? RVS might be over for everybody else, but every second you spend not using your vote, you end up wasting town's resources. Not necessarily scummy but for sure anti-town.

VOTE: Scorpious

more analysis later tonight, been really bogged down.

My last post on Scorpius

Honestly, I don't share that sentiment. There has been a little banter,but I'm not desperate to make anything out of nothing..

What interests you specifically? Bounce it off me. I'll give you my opinion

Also, scorp's last post is bad. He should make less bad posts like that one.

what would you rather me say,would you rather me post nothing at all? Damn you for making me phone post..

Honestly, I don't share that sentiment. There has been a little banter,but I'm not desperate to make anything out of nothing..

What interests you specifically? Bounce it off me. I'll give you my opinion

Also, scorp's last post is bad. He should make less bad posts like that one.

what would you rather me say,would you rather me post nothing at all? Damn you for making me phone post..

These are all bad. Still surprisingly fine with this scum read. Haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

Catboi

- I can't discuss much about my read on him due to site rules but I'm really struggling to get any kind of solid read on him.He's obviously making it a point to be at the forefront of the conversation. Again,I don't want to go into too much here because I don't want to skirt rules. Ask me specifics on this one if you'd like. Total null here

Radiant Cowbells

-Disengaged,abrasive,not doing anything but promote apathy. Nothing about any of these behaviors is pro town. If you are town,and you vote yourself. YOU ARE NOT HELPING TOWN!!! Lynch this today.. SCUM

Scorpious

-Me.. Town

What's this about catboi? Can't discuss my read but I'm struggling to get any kind of solid read. Okay, don't commit to a read on your scumpartner, tis cool. Then the next two posts (right after saying to ask him specifics) just repeats the same shit. Oh wait, gun to his head, scum on cat with a slight Shinobi scum read. What. Kill this with fire, then lynch his partner (catboi).

RC read literally says that what she (he? sorry not sure) is doing is anti-town, but then calls her scum. Different things, pushing easy lynch too obvious.

Self-read for shits and giggles.


Shinobi is town guys.

One more thing I forgot to add because of my shitty editing. While I hope the other townies lynch RC, if he turns out to be innocent then not only would Shinobi need to get immediately lynched, but it would also clear Catboi of any scumminess (at least from my POV). That being said, since Shinobi would be cleared if RC ends up scum, then Catboi has to be the next suspect due to it being more likely for one of Shinobi/Catboi to be scum than both of theming innocent. I wouldn't auto-lynch Catboi though, since he could very well just be affected by the confirmation bias that RC gave him by agreeing with him. Oh and if I die after the first night then you guys need to be completely suspicious of everything Catboi says and lynch him as soon as he can't justify a vote with a solid argument. Something tells me he would just deflect with accusations rather than back his arguments up so that would be a pretty big tell.

This is bad reasoning. Don't know if this is bad-town or scum. Leaning bad-town.

Summary, lynch Scorpius -> lynch catboi -> profit.

[catboi]

shinobi really hasn't warranted any sort of townread whatsoever, especially given that his posting has largely devolved into sniping at others rather than any sort of semblance of legitimate scumhunting but okay (his continued dismissiveness of me makes no sense from a town perspective but plenty from scum looking to

missed this earlier:

1) He'd been nothing but unhelpful and rude well before his "emotional outburst". Everyone, even you if I remember correctly, agreed that at the very least his actions were anti-town. I know everyone likes to parrot "anti-town does not = scum", but actions that are anti-town should be seen as at least a very reasonable cause of suspicion. Your defending of him right after I started suspecting him is what triggered my alarms, but now that I think about, I can see that drawing a connection between you two was probably hasty on my part and I apologize for that.

2) When he had his "emotional outburst" none of his comments or the way he treated us were out of line with what he had said earlier. He was a douchebag all game. So when I saw his meltdown, I didn't think I should take it at face value without some evidence to back it up. Since he kept being unhelpful to me, and you quickly took his actions as proof of innocence, your defending of him was something that I took as proof of guilt.

I actually think all of this mess can be settled if we discuss and agree on the following:

Is it not wise to keep in perspective that that RC could be entirely capable of planning his outrage in advance considering the fact that there wasn't any real change in his behavior until it looked like the only way to get some heat off him? I mean he was disrespectful and claimed to not care about this game (long before his "outburst"), but then quickly tried to be helpful just before his douchey attitude was about to get him lynched.

Can you blame me for believing any of this? I don't have a problem not believing any of this, since if Im proven wrong then I would move on to be suspicious of someone like Shinobi who would look pretty bad if RC turned out to be innocent.

You're really stretching very hard to justify this and it's looking very much like you're making a case because you want him to be scum rather than because he's actually been scummy.

No I don't remotely think he planned his outburst, as it would be remarkably poor strategy as scum to draw lots of negative attention to oneself right away to begin a game, and frankly I still empathize with him because a large percentage of the playerlist has been frustratingly obtuse and difficult to deal with. I get the sense that RC is an abrasive, emotional player which makes the whole outburst seem genuine. The idea that he was trying to be "helpful" willfully glosses over the fact that he put himself at L-1. Very few players are brave enough to pull off that sort of gambit as scum and the fact is it was unlikely to work here. You have to absolutely be reaching in order to see his play as some sort of scum plan

A quick glimpse of RC's meta shows he's prone to making short posts with very little explanation as town while being abrasive when pushed on as can be seen here and here he even references selfvoting in the latter game though he doesn't actually do so) so the stuff you're attacking him on is alignment neutral at best and really picking a fight with half the players in the game on day 1 makes no sense whatsoever as scum play.

@vijay

- I don't even know how to begin to address your post but what Scorpious is referencing is an ongoing game we're both in (he's dead, I'm not) and that's primarily the source of his awkwardness in commenting on me. I'm actually fairly confident he's town from the way he's posting but that's primarily based on reading his meta. I'll try to find links of examples but fairly sure you're off base here.

[catboi]

Because I'm bored and insomniac, I decided to check on jean's completed scumgame (Newbie 1634) and his posting there is nothing like what he's doing here. Suspect he's being looked at as an easy mislynch.

[Scorpious]

Is RC staying? I'm ok with him staying.. Not the first time I've ever seen a self vote. Don't like it,but I don't think it's replaceable,plus he's an important cog in this game right now.. just my 2 cents