Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[fferyllt]

I'm more worried about pieguy than you.

S-s basically had nothing to say about pieguy that I can recall. I need to go back through his posts again.

I wish he'd been around more than day 2. I keep wondering if it was his crumbs that got him killed or if he was a threat simply because of his background/abilities. I think they were crumbs, anyway.

[notscience]

The thing that bothers me abotu pie is how long it took her to realize I was town.

I understand heat of the moment type things but I just kinda expected her to read the emotion then and there but at the same time I liked the way she did do it so i dont really know?

But nacho's point regarding pie not being this emotio anlly manipulative as scum is almost exactly what happened in the me v sakura spat in 1674. I know im town and an outside third party (scum) is whiteknighitng someone on that premise but the parallels of that third person being pie in the first and the person i was against being her this game just feels funny to me.

[fferyllt]

The thing that bothers me abotu pie is how long it took her to realize I was town.

I understand heat of the moment type things but I just kinda expected her to read the emotion then and there but at the same time I liked the way she did do it so i dont really know?

But nacho's point regarding pie not being this emotio anlly manipulative as scum is almost exactly what happened in the me v sakura spat in 1674. I know im town and an outside third party (scum) is whiteknighitng someone on that premise but the parallels of that third person being pie in the first and the person i was against being her this game just feels funny to me.

Nacho made that same point about pieguy in the game that he, tammy, S-s and I played just before this one started.

[notscience]

I really don't want that point to be false.

[fferyllt]

In that game we (Sangres) were hard defending Pieguy much of day 1 and it was like the centerpiece of his case for town-pie.

here, it was kind of a throwaway. Too many players would expect him to say something like that if he didn't maybe.

[notscience]

What do you think of the odds that he wanted a fight to break out between me and pie?

[fferyllt]

It would be a pretty good distraction.

he will often mediate town v town stuff as either alignment. I'm thinking about his mediating between f-16 and Tammy in the Tales of You game as an example of him doing it as scum. This game, at the very least he wasn't going out of his way to do that.

[notscience]

Do you think he would have predicted it ending up like it did?

[fferyllt]

I dunno. :/

Probably? I haven't played enough games with you and pieguy both in the player list to understand how your reads of each other were developing. Do you think Nacho has?

I kinda felt like if pie was town she *had* to realize you were town too. By the end of day 2 I felt like you'd gone solidly town. I was blown away that pie saw your play so differently.

[notscience]

I'm not sure he has.

[pieguyn]

I really don't want that point to be false.

it's not

I realize this means fuckall coming from me, but I don't play that way as scum. the extent of emotional manipulation in my scum game usually comes down to hard WK'ing people to get them to read me as town (Sakura in Bins game, Elbirn in The Burning).

[pieguyn]

I don't understand why you all are flipping out on each other when that's exactly how Wicked/RC plan on winning this game. both of you are players who drop a bunch of town tells as town that you're incapable of faking as scum regardless of anything else that happens in the game. both of you have town told a bunch of times over the course of the game. I don't think either of you would just walk in here and play a ridiculous scum game out of nowhere.

I would comment on the reasoning behind it but most of it seems like he-said-she-said type reasoning where it's either true or it's not. so I don't really know what I should do to convince you two each other are town here.

sometime when I have more time I can go back and elaborate more on why I think the Nacho/Wicked/RC interactions make sense as scum x scum.

[RedCoyote]

Anytime one of you or pie asks me why I'm town, even when you dress the question up all fancy, I will continue to point to my role claim and Tammy's flip.

the problem with this is, there are possibilities such as the scum team having a godfather and so inferring pregame that there might have been a rolecop in the game (which I think notsci? brought up earlier in the game), or you planning on claiming miller and it just being a huge coincidence that there happened to be a rolecop in the game, or so forth. so I don't give a shit about the miller claim

play > roles in cases like this. if you're town here, I need to see it in how you actually played the game.

FYI, this is exactly what I've been saying. This is what pie desperately wants. The worst thing in the world is for the town players in this game to make their decisions on something as solid and objective as the setup & roles, so pie absolutely would love to obfuscate that. When has pie done any setup spec this game anyway? I don't recall her doing or showing much of anything curiosity-wise.

Guys, if y'all don't listen to anything else I say this game, I want you all to consider Tammy's role. Empire put that specific role in this setup for a reason. He didn't put a regular cop or a tracker or a watcher or anything else. He used a role cop. Ask yourself what does that mean in terms of what we know for a fact: Jailkeeper, 1 Goon, 1 Vig or SK

Does another role fit into this setup? Does another role fit in with the deliberate choice of a role cop?

[RedCoyote]

I don't give a shit about the miller claim

... ...

I don't give a shit about the miller claim

... ???

I don't give a shit about the miller claim

...

I don't give a shit about the miller claim

I don't give a shit about the miller claim

UNVOTE: Wicked; VOTE: pieguyn

[notscience]

Oh, that actually reminds me.

Ffery, this is going to sound absolutely batshit, and RC's probably going to have a snipey response to this before you get in thread, but

What if RC is a mafia miller?

[RedCoyote]

Never heard of one. Sounds like something you'd put in a bastard game.

[RedCoyote]

I would doubt sincerely that that would be a normal role in any case.

[notscience]

There can only be a maximum of one Non-Normal role in a Mini Normal game and two Non-Normal roles in a Large Normal game.

[RedCoyote]

A mafia miller would make sense, actually. Thankfully, I'd like to think I know Empire well enough to comfortably conclude he wouldn't use such a role. That would be like using a "mafia mason".

[notscience]

Yes, which is why I brought up the point.

lol.

[fferyllt]

I don't understand why you all are flipping out on each other when that's exactly how Wicked/RC plan on winning this game. both of you are players who drop a bunch of town tells as town that you're incapable of faking as scum regardless of anything else that happens in the game. both of you have town told a bunch of times over the course of the game. I don't think either of you would just walk in here and play a ridiculous scum game out of nowhere.

I would comment on the reasoning behind it but most of it seems like he-said-she-said type reasoning where it's either true or it's not. so I don't really know what I should do to convince you two each other are town here.

sometime when I have more time I can go back and elaborate more on why I think the Nacho/Wicked/RC interactions make sense as scum x scum.

Your comment about a meta circle in the Forest Fire game is relevant to how I feel about this game.

There's been a (looser) meta circle in this game from the start, and now we're down to 6 players and three of them are able to read each other based on deep experiential meta. And lo, we're townreading each other and looking in the players we don't know well for scum. Or maybe it's just me, and you and notsci have enough games with them to know when they towntell.

And we're putting our own reads of each other above setup spec.

Maybe it's that simple. It makes me itch to think it is that simple.

I'm looking at cold meta and rereading the game again because I owe it to every player to read them to the best of my ability.

[notscience]

I agree with your sentiment, however I think it's more complicated than you think.

You've had a strong townread on Wicked all game, and I was listening to your read.

Pie and I were distant until that big blowup and now we're working together, whereas before we made up it looked like one of us would lynch the fuck out of the other.

Nacho weasled his way into everyone's good graces.

We had that last minute scramble day 2 that ended in a mislynch.

It's not really been an easy game at all.

[fferyllt]

No it hasn't been easy to this point. Not at all.

What looks like a solution from this point and my vantage feels too easy though.

[notscience]

I understand that, the thoughts been pouring through my head for the past few days.

What did you think of my idea of a mafia miller?

[fferyllt]

I dunno. it seems pretty far out there as non-normal roles go. But, in a game with a town rolecop it's basically a godfather.

Empire's large normal ny169 had a gunsmith/vig, but no non-normal role at all iirc. I need to check something about that game.