Daytalk for Newbies

[Psyche]

We already provide accomodations to newbies that deviate from usual games, like the IC role and a dull setup. I think daytalk has enough newbie-specific merits and deviates so minimally from site meta that it could be a worthwhile change despite that limitation.

[mastin2]

Curiously enough, though, a move to making daytalk standard in newbies would probably lead to the worthwhile question as to whether it should be a site implicit standard (albeit a non-mandatory one in player-created games), and I guess that would really come down to what people think the benefits of not having daytalk are.

(I raised the topic to the Normal group, so you may see something about this in the future. Don't get your hopes up, though.)

I thought the whole point of no daytalk was to introduce people to mafia games,

which, most of the time, have no daytalk

.

[citation needed]

Every game I've been scum in since L4D (almost two years ago) has had daytalk as far as I can remember. (Granted, haven't actually drawn scum much, butstill.)

[Psyche]

Town win rate might improve with less scum replace-outs, too.

[SilverWolf]

The times I have had daytalk as scum, have been A LOT more fun and IMO was very, very helpful. The first game I had it, we won easily. The second time, we eventually lost, but I feel like I learned a ton from my much more experienced teammates. Both these times I had it, I got along GREAT with my buddies and we used it A LOT. The one downside I would say for using it that much, is it is really hard to go from that scum mindset in the PT to town mindset in the game. Really, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be. Another game I got to communicate a lot with someone was when I was traitor and shared a neighborhood with scum (I didn't know he was scum, he didn't know I was traitor) but it was super fun because again, we used it a ton. In all 3 of these situations, I feel like I bonded with the people I was scum/neighbors with to the point where we want to play with each other in games more which I think is a huge boon to newbies-really getting to know another player and possibly following them to another game.

Another possibility for newbie games is to have more experienced people volunteer to be coaches for the scumteam. Meaning you don't play, but have access to the PT and can help them at night when they are planning. I'm not sure if this would give too much of an advantage to the scumteam however, since having that experienced advice might tip the scales in their favor, but it would most certainly help make the newbie games a better experience for people who draw scum right away and are not sure what to do. Especially, if they both are brand new.

My first game here, the two scum were replaced. The first one replaced twice and the second one once. Both of them were brand new to the site and I never saw them again. Contrast that to me, who got town PR and am still here. Then again, I really like the players in that game so how the other players behave helps a lot in your first game, which is why I always try to give a good experience to newbies regarding my play in newbie games.

[GuyInFreezer]

[citation needed]

Standard mafia games*

[Bicephalous Bob]

We want games to match site meta as much as possible

why

[quadz08]

[citation needed]

Standard mafia games*

[citation still needed]

daytalk is exceptionally common now - I'd bet that at

least

50% of themes have daytalk in them, whether via rules or encryptor.

[Mina]

I am very strongly considering this.

[mastin2]

[citation needed]

Standard mafia games*

[citation still needed]
daytalk is exceptionally common now - I'd bet that at

least

50% of themes have daytalk in them, whether via rules or encryptor.

^What quadz said.

They've even gained popularity outside of themes.
And, for what little it may be worth, most off-site games I've seen have had scum daytalk, too. Daytalk isn't universal by any means, sure, but it's certainly standard in a lot of locations, a majority of theme games included.

Also, on a personal note: every time I've forbidden scum from having daychat, I've regretted the decision later.

[popsofctown]

Maybe day 1 only day talk would be a good idea. Day1 is a really long and important phase of the game to take on entirely by yourself as a scum player. All the townies are free to openly ask the IC for help but if a scum is wondering something at the start of the game like "Is it bad to vote people back who vote me" or "What should I do when one person is criticizing me over and over again" it's not like they can ask the IC.

Night 0, no one knows what questions they should ask.
It's also really easy to feel like you are not shirking a commitment when you flake as a scum, when you have only one teammate, and you can't talk to them in a sincere way. Although I'm tempted to think that's kind of a good thing to have the filter set to "high" to deter replacement rate from other games on the site.. but still.

[BROseidon]

It's better than not having it, but barely so.

This is false. Daytalk is insanely powerful, although it's utility scales with skill (like masons)

[Porochaz]

We want games to match site meta as much as possible

why

really?

Because we are giving newbies a taste of what to expect on the main site.

[Plotinus]

It's better than not having it, but barely so.

This is false. Daytalk is insanely powerful, although it's utility scales with skill (like masons)

and many newbies don’t have enough skill for it to be insanely powerful for them. but it will still help them more than not, and it will make the game more fun for them.

The times I’ve had a newbie scum buddy, I couldn’t tie myself to them in public so I just had to let them sink once it was clear that they were dead in the water. If I’d had daytalk with them, I could have at least tried to help them some before tunnelling them into the ground; and I would have felt better about tunnelling them if I could have said in private “hey this isn’t personal I don’t actually hate you but I can win this for us even if you die.”

Also it would be fun to cheerlead them in private everytime they do something well I could say “hey great post you’re doing great keep doing that”.

[Toomai]

I am of the opinion that daytalk should not be shoehorned into the Matrix6 setup. If newbie games switch to using it, it should be with a setup designed for it.

[Fink]

What makes it "shoehorned" rather than just "added to"? What about Matrix6's design makes it particularly incompatible with daytalk?

[Ranmaru]

I had daytalk as newbie scum in my first game. If you don't have day talk and you are more experienced than your partner, I feel you have to lay out everything right then and there. All the situations you expect to encounter, to compensate for less talk during the day. Obviously you will not be as organized but that's the point right?

[Plotinus]

my scum IC wall that i post pregame is really really long but it’s not enough. being able to help in real time would be better.

I tell them to try to make some allies in the town but in real time i could say hey Ranmaru is townreading you, you should townread him back and try to work together with him.

I tell them not to get too defensive, just explain once why the other person is wrong and move on, but in real time i could tell them hey that’s enough defending yourself for now go attack Fink now.

I tell them that if they see me coaching somebody else in public and giving advice that I’m secretly talking to them, but it would be easier if I could say in public "Toomai you need to be more active what do you think of Porochaz" and in private I could say to my buddy "you need to be more active too how can I help what’s going on what are you struggling with. let’s figure out who you’re going to pretend to scumread and why”

[Bicephalous Bob]

We want games to match site meta as much as possible

why

really?

Because we are giving newbies a taste of what to expect on the main site.

Do you consider not having daytalk to be an integral part of site meta?

It's a minor thing people will be able to adapt to without the help of an IC.

[Ranmaru]

Plotinus gives good points. Also, reading a really really long SCUM IC post may not be fun or interesting for a scum newbie. It's easier to learn as you go. You are basically throwing newbies in the wild by letting them be 'solo'. (Temporarily) I also like the point that newbies aren't skilled enough to make the day talk op, even if the scum IC can. I mean it's a newbie game. Basically this is something really to consider if you prioritize newbies actually learning how to play. If you just want to weed out players and not care about them learning (or at least, they still learn but through trial and error).

[Bicephalous Bob]

A problem with daytalk is that skilled players can give very specific suggestions to the point that they are basically writing the newbie's posts.

[ika]

A problem with daytalk is that skilled players can give very specific suggestions to the point that they are basically writing the newbie's posts.

Isnt that jsut scum coaching? I mean in some scum games i have seen, i have seen scums aks other scums to make a post for them to put in or revulate it

[Plotinus]

A problem with daytalk is that skilled players can give very specific suggestions to the point that they are basically writing the newbie's posts.

and the SEs can watch for sudden improvements in a newbie’s play, changes in their writing voice, them having an unexpectedly good grasp of current site meta, etc. And two people writing in the same voice is going to be one heck of an associative tell.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Oh, I wasn't talking about it being too hard on town, although I'm not sure how reliable those associative tells will be in practice.

What I meant was "Is it fun for a newbie to be overzealously coached by a buddy?"

A good compromise might be to limit daytalk to the first day. This gives scum the chance to coach each other on obvious playstyle flaws and to build a sense of team spirit, while also being introduced to rolling solo. The removal of daytalk on day 2 also works as a counterbalance.

[Toomai]

What makes it "shoehorned" rather than just "added to"? What about Matrix6's design makes it particularly incompatible with daytalk?

In general, I think daytalk is a major enough thing that you can't just add it to an existing setup and expect it to work well; it has to be part of the design from the get-go.

[Fink]

So how would you design a setup differently for daytalk? What sorts of things need changing?