Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[Bellaphant]

Thor is town bc of his response to my question about who is scum-reading him and why. Garmr is a gut read, and a really odd one - some of it is meta, based on the Ori game, some of it is the fact that he's saying what I'm thinking at points.

Pista just seems really reachy for me, but it's a weak read and I'll move to karmic if I need to closer to deadline. I'm worried about the lurkers, too :S

[Garmr]

Some people are due for prods

[davesaz]

I don't like wagons for the sake of wagons. As I mentioned before, Karmic has a couple people making decent arguments against him. The arguments against Ciara are practically non-existent.

What would you say is the most convincing argument against Karmic?

[davesaz]

@Bella, same question.

[Thor665]

Thor, you're strawmanning the agruments against you. I'm not voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon. That's inane. I'm voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon with bad reasons. The other wagons I'm fine with.

Oh, I did not understand the case on me.
Foolish of me, really.

What with cases being formed on "gut" and "pushing a wagon too hard" I didn't realize that my case of "not scu hunting - and here are examples" stood out as the worst of the lot.

...in fact, I am not really buying that at all - support this really fake looking claim. I would argue my case is better than or equal to every other case out there at the moment. What makes it "bad" to you?

[Thor665]

;/ the same could be said for every scum read presented so far in this game. What I have noticed through is you haven't really pushed anything and have just stated facts. The closest to a actual push is on thor and even then you were pretty quick to back off and just take little swings at him instead of committing and actually pushing him hard.

It almost seems like you're afraid to get yourself into confrontation because it will draw peoples attention to you.

I asked Thor some questions in an attempt to get a read on him, and he answered them in a satisfactory way. I may not like his reasons, but at least he has explained his reasons. You have yet to explain what about what about Dave's meta makes him look scummy in this game or why Karmic's posts actions have been scummy.

Yes, in Day 1 we don't have much to work with, but you could at least do a better job of explaining your scum reads.

Heck, here you are admitting I have reasons and can explain them while others aren't even doing that much, but I am the one you are voting for "bad" reasons?

My BS meter is clanging.

[Thor665]

Actually that is Gim, my iPad mocks me.

That said, Gim is able to spot that some people haven't even explained wagons, so I am still calling pita on the BS and want his support and evidence shown.

[Garmr]

@thor As of 268 karmic has the most/best reasoning and the only wagon I shall support today do you wish to contest it

[Garmr]

Thor is town bc of his response to my question about who is scum-reading him and why. Garmr is a gut read, and a really odd one - some of it is meta, based on the Ori game, some of it is the fact that he's saying what I'm thinking at points.

Pista just seems really reachy for me, but it's a weak read and I'll move to karmic if I need to closer to deadline. I'm worried about the lurkers, too :S

Which game is the ori game again

[Nachomamma8]

@Garmr: When I am running short on time, I respond to things while reading instead of catching up on posts I haven't read beforehand; this sometimes leads to me poking at things that have already been addressed. Apologies for the inconvenience.

3. Thor's play seems weird. First, he votes Ciara with no stated reason then attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary. Also, his blatant attempts to get Woody and Garmr to follow his lead and vote Ciara reek of scum trying to push a weak wagon.

Thor was pushing Ciara because he thinks that wagons are pro-town early game because they generate information. I don't disagree that Ciara's assumption was a valid one to make, but I don't understand why prodding at that was unreasonable. Encouraging people to follow him (I've done the same this game, and will probably do it in the future) forces people to take a stand on your scum read and also increases the chance that people follow you onto your scum read; both effects are protown and I'm not sure why you think it's more likely he's asking people to follow him as scum as opposed to as town.

@Eventi: Are you saying you've picked up new tricks/improved/become a different player, show me. Or, at the very least, give me something: what are your thoughts on the game?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

This was very clearly a reference to the interaction I had with zakk on the same page. This is a poor point.

[Thor665]

@thor As of 268 karmic has the most/best reasoning and the only wagon I shall support today do you wish to contest it

What are you asking me if I contest?

1. That the wagon on Karmic has the best/most reasoning? (I think this is objectively a laughable concept, but people often have different opinions about such matters)
2. That it is the only wagon you'll support for the nonce? (I see no point in debating a soft adherence such as that, as it is both changable and, currently, meaningless)

So, no, I don't contest either based, not on acceptance of them as good play, but rather because it seems silly to actually debate either concept.

[Thor665]

Meanwhile, people are saying that this;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=26097

Does not support my stance that the slot is not scumhunting.
For reasons that...well...never seem to actually describe her scumhunting.

[Garmr]

@thor As of 268 karmic has the most/best reasoning and the only wagon I shall support today do you wish to contest it

What are you asking me if I contest?

1. That the wagon on Karmic has the best/most reasoning? (I think this is objectively a laughable concept, but people often have different opinions about such matters)
2. That it is the only wagon you'll support for the nonce? (I see no point in debating a soft adherence such as that, as it is both changable and, currently, meaningless)

So, no, I don't contest either based, not on acceptance of them as good play, but rather because it seems silly to actually debate either concept.

So what do you think of the wagon I presented

[Thor665]

I think it is a wagon.
I do not oppose it, and thus don't wish to dig into the whys and wherefores - but I do not consider it more compelling than the case I have presented, and wish to continue pushing a player who, unlike Karmic, appears to be active while not participating.

[zakk]

EXPERIMENT NOTES 1.12

WoodyWoodpecker has been prodded.

SUBJECTS ASSERTING AGGRESSIVE ACTIVITY:

KarmicGuide [4] WoodyWoodpecker, gummmybear, Garmr, Gimlear
Ciara24 [3] Thor665, KarmicGuide, Radja
pistachi0n [2] davesaz, Bellaphant
eventi [1] Nachomamma8
Thor665 [1] pistachi0n
Bellaphant [0]
davesaz [0]
Garmr [0]
Gimlear [0]
gummmybear [0]
Nachomamma8 [0]
Radja [0]
WoodyWoodpecker [0]

SUBJECTS DISPLAYING PASSIVE TENDENCY:

Ciara24, eventi

[Radja]

I have the flue, so consider this some sort of V/LA until I get better.

[eventi]

@nacho - yes, my game has improved, but the reason I've been inactive isn't because of any new play style. I just haven't had time to put much serious thought into it because life and because of another ongoing game. I'm going to reread today and try to make notes as I do and hopefully I'll become a contributing member of society later today.

[Nachomamma8]

aybe not by itself, but add to that more posts that aren't particularly effective scumhunting (defensive posts, repeating oneself, etc) and you're really worsening the signal-to-noise ratio of Day 1. It gives the appearance of a long and fruitful day, and then somebody town gets lynched, and you suddenly find that the 30 pages of Day 1 aren't as valuable as you'd have liked.

Hmmm.
While you're not exactly wrong (I would argue you're still exaggerating a bit, but not interested in that argument), I think that you're pursuing someone from deviating from optimal town play, which isn't exactly accurate; I think its very hard as scum to intentionally spam up the thread and get away with it if you don't normally spam up the thread as town, and if you spam up the thread as town, you generally aren't aware of how antitown it can be.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to sheep the Karmic wagon since, of the 2 wagons, his wagon has a lot more valid arguments.

Could you name one for me?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Ciara

I think the Karmic wagon is a pile of garbage. I'm surprised I'm the only person with this opinion.

[Garmr]

Vote: Ciara

I think the Karmic wagon is a pile of garbage. I'm surprised I'm the only person with this opinion.

I think your reads this game are a pile of garbage if you are town.

[Nachomamma8]

Thoughts on Karmic:

The reason why it's not bad play to call out someone for making "jokes" (or spam posts, or some combination of the two), is because the town is going for progress on day 1, while the mafia is going for the appearance of progress. Posting a lot of nonsense is a good way to make yourself harder to PBPA later, makes lazy people who look at postcount in a few IRL days think you're town, and generally obfuscates what the town is trying to do. It's a valid thread to tug on, and I'm tugging on it.

The way I feel right now, you seem as nervous as someone at L2, and you're not at L2. I can tell you hate this attention. You wanted to be the carefree jokester townie who shocks everyone by turning out to be scum all along, and you're pissed at how fast that's falling apart.

Karmic's approach to the early game, as explained in this post, seems to be cutting down on behavior that he considers to be anti-town and endorsing pro-town behavior. I think this is the most logical approach you can take to early game, and thus, while I don't consider his argument against Woody to be particularly strong, I do think that the approach makes sense and I don't mind the reaching argument here as a result.

The bottom paragraph about what he thinks Woody is doing here would be a surprisingly deep thought process for scum at this point in the game; instead of focusing heavily on surface-level interactions as scum do oh so often, he's explaining what he thinks Woody's mindset is at this point in time and why he is making the posts he's making as scum. The assertions also aren't exactly unsupported; I think saying that Woody started the game as a "carefree jokester" and then took a darker tone when pressured is completely accurate, although I don't think it means the same thing that Karmic thinks it does.

Ciara seems like she's here and reading, but not doing specially great scumhunting. That (and also sheeping Thor, I thought that was implicit) is why I'm voting Ciara.

This statement has gotten a bit of heat (in fact, this is why there's a wagon on Karmic if I'm not mistaken), but I disagree very strongly that this was ill-intentioned or even incorrect. There's no way in hell that anyone playing this game can look me in the face that Ciara has made any sort of significant impact in the game at all; she has no major stances, hasn't pushed scumreads, hasn't formed townreads. Postcount means something, but it isn't much; what matters is opinions formed and how they are pushed and she doesn't really have any of those.

[Nachomamma8]

Other things:

Ciara:
I find it amazing that a player could be under pressure for so long and manage not to produce one serious opinion. What's her opinion on Thor? What's her opinion on me? I've found her slow to vote in the past, but it's completely ridiculous that she hasn't even made the slightest effort to post anything that matters despite having the time to put out a decent number of posts. I've been intentionally looking elsewhere in order to give her a little room to work, but the chance that she's actually town is looking pretty terrible at this point.

Eventi:
Boooo. I hate how he has time to explain what he means by "my game has changed" but has no time or interest in anything happening. This read is weaker than the Ciara-read, but I'm still waiting for something useful from the slot.

[Thor665]

@Nacho - you find Ciara slow to post votes in the past. Would you disagree that she is slow to offer opinions?