Open 609: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Luna Fox]

Shiro forgot her color

[MarioManiac4]

I promise if somebody hammers Silverjaws I'll read this clusterfuck <3

[Luna Fox]

Seems like we're doing nothing anyway.

Unvote
Intent to hammer silver

Please reply to alchemist's question and claim and give reads and stuff.

[Shiro]

Shiro forgot her color

I was on phone and didn't want to bother :

p

[Shiro]

And now I accidentally used the wrong colour

GODAMN YOU PHONE

[PantherPunt]

The TTH wagon overall is bad. Panther's vote stems from a paranoia that TTH even sourced back to their Newbie game, and I don't know whynp that's suspicous to anyone. SilverJaws took that reasoning and ran with it. Luna and Max just sheeped Panther onto the wagon, and from what I can tell Max isn't even scumreading her, just thinks she hasn't been "terrible Towny."

Well since TTH couldn't explain how my vote stems from paranoia, maybe

you

can, since you

agree

. Why does my suspicion of her correlate to the fact that I had scum IC/SE in my first newbie game? Why/how is there any correlation?
To that point in the game, these were her posts:

Spoiler: All TTH posts prior to me saying I had a bad feeling about her

Hi Alch, ika, Bella! ^_^/~

VOTE: Bella

My vote stems from Post 33. Complaining about the gamestate when there wasn't anything particularly annoying to complain about feels like an awkward space filler.

UNVOTE:

TTH heart naked voted rather than asking questions. Hmm.

"Hmm." indeed. I'm a little interested in why you would think that's scummy given how Bees went (reference).

Fire, what makes Ika Town in your opinion?

Have you ever played a game with ika before?

:S

Bella, why are you being super weird?

@tth: Define 'Super weird'.

She didn't directly acknowledge what I brought up about Bees! but did indirectly (and vaguely) concede that I tend to "votes [her] within a few rl days of the thread opening." It's a point that doesn't really have any relevance and certainly doesn't reveal anything about why she's scum reading me for my vote. The preceding sentence about Alchemist (also with little relevance to the current discussion) just makes it come off as trying to force a casual tone.

Hi ika! ^_^

All things considered, I'm doing OK. With the school year starting there's tons of stuff to do so I guess I can never say I'm bored. XD

VOTE: JoramvanVught

Unless I get some concrete proof he makes these kinds of commets as Town, I think this is the most likely to turn up scum atm.

Did a little stalking on this and he doesn't have any completed games and I'm working from the assumption that he's a newbie. What, specifically, about Joram is bothersome to you?

P-edit: See my previous post about him. However, you say he has no completed games and Lizard said he has 2 Town games... I need to see what's going on here.

I'm not counting dopey marathon games. -.-

X/

I saw "Day 5" in the thread title and assumed it was still ongoing...

It is way too late at night for me to be doing this.

so now the town block has {me, alch, tth and varian}

tth/varian: do you guys want to reject or add players?

pedit: its never too late

Add me on that list and you're set!

Do you have any scum reads?

Where does she look like a "prototypical" (if there is such a thing) SE/IC player who is also a "discussion leader" (in her own words)?


I agree that SilverJaws took the reasoning that I voiced, but he went into greater depth and explained it better and expounded upon it. Of course they are 99/100 NOT both scum in this case, but I HIGHLY doubt that they are both town. If the hammer on SilverJaws is going to happen, I can't stop it. And if he flips scum, you can give me a big fat "I TOLD YOU SO" but based on how these stagnant wagons have been sitting, I'd bet SilverJaws flips town.

Saying TTH would likely, for strategic purposes, be more involved as scum is not enough to justify a town read.

[PantherPunt]

I got my prod. My life picked up after this game started, unfortunately. Sad, because I was looking forward to this game.
If I still can't do anything by tonight I'll go ahead and request replacement. I only want to do that as a last resort.

Sorry to hear you're so busy. Too bad you didn't have time to check in this game on Sunday when you spent 1 hour+ on Micro 523 and Persona 4 Mafia

I really hate it when people say "You were on this game, but didn't post here"... Depending what you are doing on a game it can easily take an hour or so of your time. If you have limited time you can't always catch up in every game. That's my opinion on it anyway.

Ya, ya, ya. It's not a locktell, ldo. Good thing I asked her a bunch of questions about her dismissal of my suspicion that she gave up on answering, though.

[PantherPunt]

Seven days left to deadline so I'll start with a content dump first. Lizard was run up essentially for being a weak and awkward player. I want to give town the chance to read me first before deciding if they want a claim.

I don't understand how TellTaleHeart has been leading wagons let alone not garner much suspicion at all. The number of social psychology tactics she's using would put a police interrogator to shame.

You're scum reading a set of people with very similar writing/playing styles. I wouldn't go so far as to say we've been "discussion leaders" but the people you named definitely are more... involved?

This deserves votes.

Instead of asking PantherPunt what he found scummy about Alchemist, Varian and herself

, she does this dodge and deflect move where in one stroke:
1. She belittles him, portraying him as a wild, paranoid player suspicious of the "discussion leaders" which trivializes his suspicion and puts him in a box where he is treated as a wide-eyed newbie that's not taken seriously.
2. Subtly portrays herself as something positive (a "discussion leader").

@Shiro - like I already said, SilverJaws did expound upon a point that I made, but I think his point was valid because it addressed something I didn't.

SilverJaws points out that TTH doesn't even seem interested in what I found scummy. Instead, just dismisses me completely.

I've found that town (and scum in many cases) who are called scummy are inclined to ask for a reason and in turn respond to why those reasons might not be valid by explaining thought processes or motives behind posts that were called scummy. Furthermore, if the reasons are TRULY lacking in merit, they may even voice a scumread on the person who was suspicious of them. Because town would be leery of people trying to cast shade on them for bs reasoning.

I've found that scum (and rarely every town) who are called scummy just dismiss it without wanting to know more about that player's thoughts. It's a ploy to divert attention from themselves.

For all those loudly scumreading SilverJaws, can you tell me what the scum-case is? BEYOND calling 5 people's posts into question upon entrance? If that's the entirety of the case (which he has responded to and explained) then I think it's pretty lousy.

[PantherPunt]

@Bella - why are you not voting anywhere?

[PantherPunt]

You're right this is stalling, Silver flipping scum would also hint towards a TTH town, since she's his main scumread, i just dont think we'd get much info if he flips town and im not very sure he'll flip scum.

There's something I noticed in one of his posts that makes me believe he's more likely scum. I need an answer from him to 687 to be sure of it. Of course who knows when that answer will come and if he's scum he could just lie, but I think I already know what the true answer is and I just want to hear it from him.

We both know what the true answer is. He'd have to be really dumb to lie to you at this point in time regardless of alignment, now that it's had so much attention brought to it.

[Shiro]

@Panther

For me I had gut weak scumread on lizard from the way she was posting. Then she accused ika for not playing telling him to replace. The moment you and I tried to question her she said she was bored of the game and replaced out herself(which is flat out hypocritical) then jaws comes throws a bunch of scumreads while saying he will swiftly dumb info. Jaws vanishes even though he was at a critical position. Town rarely does that. From my experience (which isn't much but whatever) Scum tend to either get really defenisive or go meh and don't bother when they are driven close to a lynch. Town tend to be simply defensive or try to game solve and find scum in their wagon etc.

Jaw came tried to redirect his wagon asap and then vanished which to me points to scum behavior. Sparrow at the time was a close alternative so he had a lot of ground to step in order to do that.

All this combined made me want to lynch him. it is not the strongest of cases which is why I said if you are willing to tell me why it is worth keeping him I would possibly switch.

[PantherPunt]

I hear you on the Lizard thing. I played with her in my first newbie lobby game and I pushed for her lynch D1 because she looked scummy and inconsistent to me. She flipped town. I started the game thinking she was town, but then pulled that back to null after she parroted me right before the replace-out. Maybe she thought it was same old story all over again where folks finds her scummy and she just didn't want to be a part of it anymore (still weird bc there was no REAL pressure on her at that point).

It is actually true that she /out'ed from the queue, so I can kind of believe that she never really wanted to play this game to begin with.

WRT disappearing, it sounds like you're describing TTH as much as SilverJaws. People were quick to jump to TTH's defense about having things going on IRL and the lack of activity being null (Alch even called it townie). So we can't treat them differently. It's either scummy or it's null. People who want it both ways look fishy to me. Which is why I asked if there was a case on Silver outside of the "mudslinging"

[Shiro]

ftr I do not find it null like the rest. I find excessive lurking scummy

[Bellaphant]

Sorry guys, I'll catch up tomorrow.

[Firebringer]

Shiro forgot her color

That means Shiro is scum.

[Firebringer]

Sorry guys, I'll catch up tomorrow.

Bella, I am starting to think when you don't do much its because you are town.
>.>

[Bellaphant]

Fire, ask me if I like scum or town better.

[Prolapsed Brain]

I got my prod. My life picked up after this game started, unfortunately. Sad, because I was looking forward to this game.
If I still can't do anything by tonight I'll go ahead and request replacement. I only want to do that as a last resort.

Sorry to hear you're so busy. Too bad you didn't have time to check in this game on Sunday when you spent 1 hour+ on Micro 523 and Persona 4 Mafia

There is a site rule in regard to talking about ongoing games. The rule is DO NOT DO IT. I have spoilered, below, the complete text of the post that contains the rule. The important part is below:

[

Discussions about Activity
Players may discuss activity in other games in a general sense, including counting how many games a player is alive in. However, this may not mention ANYTHING of substance.

OKAY:

"Zoraster is alive in 4 games and is posting in those games, but he hasn't posted here in 3 days."

NOT OKAY:

"Zoraster is alive in 4 games where he's posting lengthy posts. <The violation here is mentioning that the posts are LONG. This is a substantive statement.>

OKAY:

"I'm alive in 3 games, and I'm having trouble keeping up with all of them."

NOT OKAY:

: "I'm in LYLO in a game, so that's taking a lot of my time." <The violation here is mentioning that you're in LYLO. This is a substantive statement.>

Spoiler: Ongoing game rule

Subject: Discussion of Ongoing Mafia Games is Not Allowed

Discussion of Ongoing Mafia Games is Not Allowed

Recently we have had a spate of people discussing ongoing games. Though this has led to a record number of ongoing game bans, there may be a perception that there is some wiggle room when it comes to discussing ongoing games. This post is to tell you that there is not.

It does not matter if you are dead.
It does not matter if you don't think it will affect a game.
It does not matter if you aren't in the game.
It does not matter if you are posting about a game taking place on another forum or posting about an MS game on another forum.
It does not matter if you are moderating the game in question.

Discussing ongoing games by quoting or otherwise referring to an ongoing game is forbidden. There is no clever way around this rule. Don't try.

If you are unsure whether something violates the rule against discussing ongoing games, please don't hesitate to contact a listmod.

THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES FOR YOU

Discussing ongoing games may result in a full game ban. This will mean that you are force replaced out of all your games, and you will not be allowed to replace back into them at the end of your ban. Further bans will be far harsher, including and up to a permanent ban from the site.

Game Moderators: Take IMMEDIATE action.

Game moderators are expected to step in and take immediate action when players discuss ongoing games in the game thread -- at least a public warning in the thread not to discuss ongoing games. This is not optional for the game moderator. You may not, as a game moderator, allow people to discuss ongoing games in your thread unless the other game allows for it explicitly in the rules.

Exceptions

There are three primary exceptions.

Communications with authorities

You may PM, IM or otherwise contact the game mod(s), listmods who aren't involved in the game, and admins who aren't in the game. Likewise, listmods and admins will sometimes discuss ongoing games for administrative purposes.

The Game Allows Outside Communication

Where a game allows communication, it may be allowed. This must be EXPLICITLY stated in the rules (and as a listmod, we'd appreciate it if game mods would give us a heads up when this is the case).

Please note that a game mod may allow communications about his or her OWN game to be discussed elsewhere, but he or she may

NOT

allow discussion of other ongoing games in their thread.

Discussions about Activity

Players may discuss activity in other games in a general sense, including counting how many games a player is alive in. However, this may not mention ANYTHING of substance.

OKAY:

"Zoraster is alive in 4 games and is posting in those games, but he hasn't posted here in 3 days."

NOT OKAY:

"Zoraster is alive in 4 games where he's posting lengthy posts. <The violation here is mentioning that the posts are LONG. This is a substantive statement.>

OKAY:

"I'm alive in 3 games, and I'm having trouble keeping up with all of them."

NOT OKAY:

: "I'm in LYLO in a game, so that's taking a lot of my time." <The violation here is mentioning that you're in LYLO. This is a substantive statement.>

---

This isn't a hard rule to stay on the right side of the line on. The listmods would like to never have to take action again. Please don't try and toe the line on ongoing games.

This is your first and only warning. Do not do this again (and this is directed at everyone, not just the author of the quote above).

[Luna Fox]

Fire, ask me if I like scum or town better.

Do you like sushi or riceballs better.

[Bellaphant]

I've only had sushi once and riceballs never Now I feel sheltered!

[Prolapsed Brain]

Votecount 1.14

L-1 Silverjaws - 6 - Firebringer, Shiro, ika, Vedith, TellTaleHeart, MarioManiac4
TellTaleHeart - 3 - PantherPunt, Silverjaws, MaxwellPuckett
Luna Fox- 1 - Flow Alpha
MarioManiac4 - 1 - Alchemist21

Not Voting: Bellaphant, Luna Fox

Deadline: (expired on 2015-09-19 23:45:33)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Prolapsed Brain]

Performer replaces Flow Alpha effective immediately.

[Luna Fox]

Hi Performer, welcome to the game ^_^

[Firebringer]

Fire, ask me if I like scum or town better.

Which do you like better?

[Bellaphant]

Interesting to note, Sparrow/Mario keep avoiding mentioning anything related to why they wouldn't prefer to lynch TTH over Silver, despite being asked multiple times by panther.

There are more scummy players.

Hiii - your entrance into the thread was gross - esp. as an alt, bc we've played together before. You've also never explained why your read on me was where it was.

Apart from the self vote, he's not playing different to an extent.
I've been in a few games with him now and read a few others of his. His scum is more pushy/involved.

Cool, that's a meta read, but what about this game? You are happy this is town!mario?

Interesting to note, Sparrow/Mario keep avoiding mentioning anything related to why they wouldn't prefer to lynch TTH over Silver, despite being asked multiple times by panther.

There are more scummy players.

Can you help me out and give some semblance of support for any of your reads? I don't understand why you keep refusing to do so, tbh. I mean- unless you are scum and are trying to avoid spewing your team since others have meta on you.

The reason I made a fucking alt is that I'm fucking tired of meta.
And my reads are actually mostly gut. Silverjaws has slanged mud at everyone, so I'm scumreading him. You and Luna reads as classic TvT to me. Ika is ika and he basically has an activity tell that is basically never broken. I see scum movitation in clogging up the thread, and Alchemist is the only one apart from you and Luna, who are townreads, to do that. Plus Alchemist's post 435 almost seems like guilt/fustration that he helped make his buddy replace out.
Apart from that, yeah, mostly gut. (And gut adds to the reads I've mentioned anyway.)

....You were asked to explain your scum-reads, not your town reads.

SilverJaws, CLAIM!!!

Why is everyone so claim happy in this game! Fire, why?

Too many scumreads.

Clearly, I don't think they're all scum. But I'm not going to artificially limit who I find scummy to the number of scum in the game. I update my reads as people respond to accusations and post content. You also underestimate how incredibly easy it is for scum to tailor their reads so they have scum, null and townreads in specific numbers. But as town, if I find scummy stuff from multiple people, I'm not going to let that stuff stand.

Fair point, I didn't bother reading the Bella response.

I find this an inadequate response to Luna Fox's question and you not taking a new position troubling. You said it was a weak scum entrance and asked for my reads. I had already given them. So, why didn't you post any comment at all on these reads you were waiting for?

--

Mario parroting the "Silverjaws is mudslinging" line that others have brought up hoping a lynch doesn't slip away.

TTH checked in this morning in her games but no post here. I think she's hoping that today's lynch will happen without her help.

Posts like this make me really not want this to be the lynch today, guys. I liked some of Lizard's posting too, seemed too relaxed for scum. I'd much rather lynch the Mario slot.

Alchemist, please look at TTH ISO, tell me what stances she's taking and why, tell me what posts are proactive aside from those related to Bella, and show me what posts arent reactive towards Panther, and then in the end tell me why that is so town, that it mirrors your judgement.

Yes, she has posted mostly about Bella and interacted mostly with Panther. She's Townreading you and Shiro but I don't know why. As I said before, she's seen some of the same things I have and I take that as a good sign. I attribute her relative inactivity to her rl business and her other games.

However, I don't think scum TTH would be this uninvolved. If she's Town, and believes there are other experienced Townies in the game, then she could be less involved and rely on the others while she's busy. Unless the entire scumteam is experienced, I think she wouldn't want to leave them having to compensate for a missing member and would put more effort into the game. Outnumbered and outpowered, the scum have only their basic tactics to rely on, and scum TTH would surely realize this and pull her weight for the scumteam.

There is a weird amount of people defending each other in this game! This post is ringing so many alarm bells for me, I'm gonna re-read Alch in Iso tomorrow.

I promise if somebody hammers Silverjaws I'll read this clusterfuck <3

Remember up there ^ when Veid said Mario is pushy scum? This is horrible. Also, we're a 'shitfest' and a 'clusterfuck'. The last game Mario was scum in he tried to breed apathy via spam, I'm seeing it again here.

Seems like we're doing nothing anyway.

Unvote
Intent to hammer silver

Please reply to alchemist's question and claim and give reads and stuff.

Valid questions, but I'd prefer this not to be a lynch today.

@Bella - why are you not voting anywhere?

VOTE: Mario

Tomorrow, I'll re-read Alch and TTH. I'm jumping at shadows maybe.