FF7 Mafia (Game Over)

[mastin2]

I guess I can give you props for actually manning up and pushing me for a lynch this phase instead of calling me your biggest scum-read all game while lynching other players. But I suppose this was your strat all along.

Oh, hey.

Thanks for the free point about my towngame, btw.

In my scumgame, I push for the lynch who I want to be lynched, and only them, without the side-references. Why? Because if I get screwed over, those side-references are associatives that I very much do not want to be created.

In short, if I were actually scum, I'd be sticking to basically the same lynches and never wavering. Inorganic Chemistry showed that with me focusing on Sonic Boom (well technically my goal there was a hiplop lynch, but my goal was Sonic Boom after that), with the only other votes being Shakira Confirmed D1 and Bins D1, yet always circling back around to be on Sonic Boom for the most part, as my one and only push. It's part of the strategic, controlled nature of my scumgame: giving the town as little as possible, and making what I give them be as focused as it can be, overwhelming them. (This doesn't necessarily have to end in a lynch, but that is the goal more often than not. I was inconvenienced when Sonic Boom was cleared by Cerb and the cop-inventor wasn't dead, because that meant I couldn't mislynch them anymore, even though keeping them alive for the noise was still viable.)

This game?
This game, I

have

had those falterings. My reads have changed, my pushes have been completely altered. For instance, my interactions with slots like Jaqen and Kaboose changed, and my read on V did a 180 even without the aid of Kaboose with Kaboose being the nail in the coffin. Some reads have remained fairly constant, but they've also changed, and who I've pushed as scum has been different with time, rather than a constant, because as town my mind is very rarely ever made up; as scum, the less info I give to the town, the better, and therefore the better it is for me to focus on lynching one player at a time.

So by your own point, I am town.
This can be demonstrated across multiple games, too. I can point to basically any towngame and show the same thing; I can point to every scumgame of mine and demonstrate the severe lack of evolution. Because as scum, while my manipulations are ever-changing, my machinations are more or less the same.

[mastin2]

You know what I find even more hilarious? Mastin is hard pressed to find people that could be scum with me.

Hmm. Funny.
This line sounds familiar.

OH YEAH.

Because nobody.
Not.
One.
Fucking.
Person.

Can name my 'scumbuddy'.
Not one.

Not you, ProHawk.
Not hiplop.
Not Seiko.
Not Antagonist.
And certainly not Xtoxm.

Not a single player who has said I was scum.
Has given me a partner to go along with that accusation.
Not once.

But you're also

hilariously

wrong about me painting who you can be scum with.
You can be scum with hiplop. Voting patterns and buddiness supports that.
You can be scum with Radja. Playing pattern and some interactions support that.
You can be scum with Antagonist. Their refusal to vote you supports that.
(Heck, you could be scum with Seiko even though I doubt that.)

YOU can be scum with any of those three.
I've just gone to show that you can't be scum with ONE person, and you go blow it out of proportion to say I have trouble saying who you'd be scum with. I do have trouble saying who you'd be scum with...but certainly not for lack of candidates! It's because there's too damn MANY! I can't narrow the pool down small enough to make a confident callout. I can guess. ProHawk-hiplop, ProHawk-Radja both being promising. But I can't say with conviction that they're scum.

I CAN say with conviction YOU are, though.

[mastin2]

Because nobody. Not. One. Person. Can name my 'scumbuddy'. Not one. Not you, ProHawk. Not hiplop. Not Seiko. Not Antagonist. And certainly not Xtoxm.

Not a single player who has said I was scum has given me a partner to go along with that accusation.

Not once.

Seriously, for those people who doubt it, go check your own words and see if they say who I'm scum with; they don't. (You should remember your own words and remember they didn't, but go do it anyway to confirm.) Go check everyone else's words saying I'm scum and see if they say who I'm scum with; they don't.

Because in spite of this happening for, what? Two, three, full damn phases?
Not.
once.

Has a scumbuddy been named.
Not even from Jaqen.

[mastin2]

Also, btw,

Ppedit- no mastin, you're not a bad player. But how you're doing me is. Sorry I had a laugh at you not being able to read me. But for some reason you can't. And you know you cant. So why not leave that to someone who can before you screw something up?

If Jaqen was certain I was scum, why a post like this? "Screwing up" as scum-pretending-to-be-town was how I WON Inorganic Chemistry. If by screwing up, he meant legitimately making a mistake as scum, then that'd be a

good

thing that he'd WANT. So no matter the context, this says he wasn't sure I was scum; he was still treating me as possible town.

There's many others like this, too.

[mastin2]

Btw, I'd also like to point out:
Name a single thing pro-town ProHawk has done the entire game.

Additionally, think of a single bit of content he's provided aside from, day after day, even WELL BEFORE THE CLAIM, the "mastina is scum" statements that were hollow and reasonless.

I'll wait.

[mastin2]

...

I, uh.

Stand corrected.

There

has

been one callout of a scumbuddy for me.
Once.
In the entire game.

Here.

Xtoms hammer was garbage, and mollie could be scum with Mastin if xtom isn't.

So not

quite

as strong a point as I thought, BUTSTILL...holds mostly true anyway?

For all the people calling me scum, there is a disproportionately small number of people naming a scumbuddy, and even with ProHawk it was a one-off thing, once, one time, briefly appearing and then never coming up again.

[mastin2]

So Mastin, care to try and explain what you crumbed doing night 3?

I can explain who I did/didn't target, yes. Will I do so, no, not unless absolutely necessary.

It's necessary.

Fine. I suppose I can reveal that much. I didn't target anyone night three. Mainly because I was physically incapable of doing so. Details beyond that don't get to be revealed yet. Not unless I deem it necessary to reveal.

Hmm. One final question then- why were you crumbing shit as if you'd done something N3 then? You did the same on D2 and D3 and what popped on D4 was new.

Lookit mastin, I'm trying to figure stuff out. Chip in here, I need that answer for a reason.
Working theory- antagonist was supposed to make the kill N1 and

their scumbuddy redirects

from them to someone else so that if they are targeted their hands will be clean. D2, somebody specifically asked me if I was still scumreading Antagonist and I said I wasn't sure. That person never followed up on my answer, which is pretty weird since it was a noncommitted answer, almost as if "not sure" was good enough. I also think it odd that question was directed at me alone when I wasn't the only one scumreading Antagonist D1, especially given my night action. If Antagonist is scum, that player stands a good chance of being scum as well.
And I still need that answer mastin. Be as vague as you like because I'll get it. It's only for me anyhow. I'd rather not have to quote all your crumbs and make them plain as day for everyone in the tiny little sliver of a chance that my results on you are wrong.

Oh my god I can't believe this exists in Jaqen's iso, but HOLY SHIT IT ACTUALLY EXISTS IN JAQUEN'S ISO.

Not only is this doubting the guilty post-claim, but it is HIM MENTIONING A REDIRECTOR.
Admittedly in relationship to N1, not N3, butstill......

[mastin2]

Fine. a man is putting you on the Backburner for now. A man is requesting you are looking at the game again with fresh eyes. Kaboose's questions with no follow up on a man's investigation targets the days following the nights he is investigating coupled with that one's wanting to jump on the Jaq is scum thing reeks of shit, so stop naming that one 100% town.
So, how's this- leash Orange onto Kaboose and lynch Antagonist?

There's also stuff like this a plenty in Jaqen's iso.

So like I said.

He wasn't absolutely sure of the guilty result, and even was placing me on the backburner...

while hunting for Meteor-scum

.

That says something.
That says a lot.

[pirate mollie]

mastina

I don't know what to say or what to do here. you have a guilty on your head from a flipped tracker an I am struggling to see how you are anything but scum here. gutwise you feel very town to me, I can't explain i in a way that other pple wld understand, its just how you feel inside my head and it feels town. I wldn't put it past jaqen to fake a guilty on you but he seemed to really believe it. I feel like if there was a redirector we wld have seen evidence of it by now?

late game is not my strong suit, I don't usually last this long in games and whenever i have it doesn't usually end super well hu2 was the exception. I still feel like notty is town, I still feel like ika wld not be reaching out to me THIS much as scum if he is scum then I am impressed. I have hippy as strong town, we have kind of bonded over things that have nothing to do with mafia so I have a sense of a baseline for his personality and how he thinks plus I went and looked at graveyard and the level of participation and engagement here is waaaaaaaaaaay different compared to that game. he just lurked and wld make bullshit posts and here he is genuinely trying to figure things out.

I have never ever mislynched you and I don't ever want to. but I am looking at my spreadsheet, I am looking at the flips and I am looking at the guilty and it looks pretty damning! I am worried that I reading you as town because I

want

to read you as town. I looked at inorganic and I wld be lying if I didn't say that there are definitely some similarities between your play there and your play its just meta pattern matching is not how I read you. it WORRIES me that I am not dead yet cos t makes me feel like my reads are very very wrong. I think I have had good town reads but my scumdar and isn't at its full strength in this game; sometimes it happens. but I have been on a crazy town winning streak, out of the last 15 games that I have been town in town has won 13 of them. I wld like to win this 1.

[mastin2]

Fine. One day. I will be needing that explanation of what exactly makes Saint so much tastier than Antagonist if the Mollie Jk no-kill thing is what we are going with, keeping in mind I'm town reading Antagonist for now given Ika's history as I understand it of being a no content lurkaderp as scum.

^There was also this, after I explained myself to him, and this:

Also- if what you're saying is true about being town you may want to look at the interactions with your wagon here much like I would if I were running the gambit I'm known for a bit. The one where I piss off town by picking a very polarizing townie to dump a freighter of shit on (kinda like a slayer that's directed toward someone not me) just to watch those who are getting on and off the wagon and keep my eyes peeled for those pissing their pants to get on but not quite doing so because they know its the wrong play as well as those who boldly get on and then get cold feet at the first sign of any contradiction. If you are town. But, I haven't been running that and so haven't had my eyes peeled. I think the results would be much the same if you are town though.

You can say that, absolutely, he was at least considering the possibility I was town.

[mastin2]

I don't know what to say or what to do here. you have a guilty on your head from a flipped tracker an I am struggling to see how you are anything but scum here.

Well Jaqen himself wasn't absolutely sure of the guilty, he himself mentioned the possibility of a redirector existing, and it's been shown that he picked up his attacks on me immediately after being mislynched in Inorganic Chemistry and gaining access to the dead thread where he got to know I was scum there, which may have influenced his play here.

Overall, you can draw pretty conclusive proof that said 100% guilty...was very clearly, to him, not nearly as 100% as he at times stated it to be. He thought I was scum, sure, yeah, because he just saw my scumplay, in an ironic twist of fate. (He knows what I'm talking about, too. He criticized ME for scumreading him eternally for a good scumgame of his, and then...yeah.) But he wasn't sure of it. In spite of the result, he was, very consistently, showing doubt. There were statements about me being 100% scum, but they were basically empty--he never actually pushed them, and was always working with me to try and figure it out.

So throw out the damn guilty already.

And judge me by my fucking play.

gutwise you feel very town to me, I can't explain i in a way that other pple wld understand, its just how you feel inside my head and it feels town.

Okay, thought exercise, mollie. Go read my iso in Inorganic Chemistry--I know, you look there with hindsight, but what I'm more asking is if I look town to you, there.

If the answer is no...then even with my best damn scumgame ever, you know that you've never been wrong on me.

So trust in your feelings.

I feel like if there was a redirector we wld have seen evidence of it by now?

What roles would give us this sort of evidence? I actually think it HAS been in play some nights. N1's possible (for instance, a possible explanation for why Flubber died was because he was redirected onto), N2's definitely possible, I know N3 happened with one, and there's not been a single thing happening since then that would imply the absence of one, albeit also not containing anything confirming the presence of one.

Really, the only proof there is of the redirect comes from contradicting reports: Kaboose claimed an innocent on me, which was very obviously real. Jaqen claimed a track result on me, which he very obviously was not sure about the reliability of. Investigatives are the main source of confirmation of redirects, and they're already there, telling you it exists.

So just lynch ProHawk.

If he flips town, speedlynch me tomorrow. I won't argue; I might even help with a self-vote. (The only reason I wouldn't self-vote if ProHawk flipped town is fear of it being accidental game-throwing with there being enough scum that tomorrow's lylo. But that's the ONLY reason I'd have for not self-voting if ProHawk flipped town. Yet he won't.)

[mastin2]

(KNEW Inorganic Chemistry would haunt me. *grumble, grumble*.
People won't think it good enough for a scummie especially without public access to the dead PT, and yet, people will realize I'm a competent enough scum player to never want to lose to me again, thus, always paranoia-doubting me. *gripe, gripe*.)

[mastin2]

Like mollie...

I haven't been doing stellar jobs in all my towngames.
I've been doing okay, not great, depending on the zone.
Yet always, there's at least one player that I feel confident in calling scum that I end up right on.

I really, really, REALLY think that ProHawk is scum.

You've seen his townplay and his scumplay. Tell me this isn't the latter, because every game I could find showed a very strong trend of this being how he plays as scum, and not how he plays as town.
I'll sacrifice my life if I am wrong about him, but I do not want to be forced into sacrificing my life to prove myself right about him.

I know it's asking a lot.
It's asking for you to do an inverse-Tales. To discard the result, this time to save a person rather than to lynch a person. (AP was so obviously milking that inno result on him, btw. /stillbitter.) But for the same damn reasoning: because fuck what the role says. Go off of what's there, obviously, in the thread.

I am town.
I'm as sure as I'll ever be that ProHawk is scum. Like, 98% sure. (The 2% comes from not holding PR evidence against him.)

So please trust me for that much. And help me lynch a scumbag. It might be my only chance to leave any real good in the game. The one scum I caught, and I alone caught. The Cephrir-clause. (Well technically Desp was the one responsible, and BRO also pushed, and sangres sealed the deal, but I was the main LIVING person pushing that lynch.)

I can find one scum. It is ProHawk.

[mastin2]

Also, justsayin'.

As far as the history books go.
If I were scum, I'd already be pleased at living this long and would have almost no reason to need to live longer. With so few players left, my scumbuddy/ies would be left with explicit instructions on how to win the game, which would probably be a fairly easy task with most scumbuddy combos. (I dunno, haven't really thought about that. Because, well. Yaknow. Not actually scum.)

As town, no. I'm not satisfied. I want to beat the guilty claim. As scum, sure, yeah, I'd also want to beat the guilty result, but I would have already effectively done so, been content, and then and there we go. But as town? No. The only way to beat the guilty claim is to also lynch scum. And I don't want it to be a delusion of grandeur. I want it to actually happen, that thing I see: where in spite of the guilty claim, I can rally the town into lynching a scum, thereby clearing me, proving me right, and leaving a mark on the history books, maybe even Kodak-moment-worthy (albeit probably not). It's not a Paragon-level move. Nor would the scum equivalent be a scummie (unless it'd be Don Corelone), but maybe it'd be considered worthy of a Kodak moment, that feat of having turned the tables. Of instead of being mislynched, lynching scum and becoming conftown. I know. It's selfish. But I can do it, and I want to do it.

Like. What would my legacy be if I was mislynched today? Nothing much. Nothing I've done or said would really have mattered. Maybe I'd be "the girl who was more right than not, yet ultimately, no Cassandra" if I was lucky.
What would my legacy be if I lynched scum today? The girl who went from having a guilty claim on her to conftown, lynching scum and placing the town in a very solid position to win the game come future days.
Admittedly there's the third that I fear more than anything else, if I lynched town today and then got mislynched tomorrow, as "the girl who destroyed the town", but I really.
REALLY.
Think that we can get it to be the scum lynch if we lynch ProHawk.
Everything there says he's scum.

[mastin2]

Guh.
I also realize I should technically be appealing to Cerb to vote, but I can't think of anything in his playstyle whatsoever that could sway him.
(This is another reason I'm not scum, btw. As scum, I have an intimate knowledge of players' playstyles, thanks to situational awareness, and thus, can not only predict their moves, but manipulate things such that I say things in a way that gets them to do what I want them to do. They use logic? I have logic at my disposal. They use VCA? I've manipulated it. They use emotions? I've faked them. They use gut? Well, can't do much there, but I misdirect them as much as I can.)

Like. I kinda sorta have the grasp on more or less what Cerb's like.
But I don't have anything to tell him.
I'm not scum.
And I want to ask him to trust me on that for one day phase and to sheep me in voting ProHawk.
But I pretty much already know that he's not going to be swayed by that.
But that's all I've got.


Similarly, for Xtoxm, I can say that he really should know better, but honestly I don't actually know him well enough to know if he actually, legitimately, SHOULD know better.
Basically, I can appeal to him and say that he knows he can occasionally trust me to be right in spite of my evidence being a little bit on the "wacky" and unconventional side of things, but...I don't know him well enough to see it actually working, and it probably won't.

So consider this an open appeal to everyone.
Please, I know I have literally nothing that is overwhelmingly convincing.
Just circumstantial stuff here and there that suggests my evidence...which by itself doesn't even prove ProHawk's guilt.

But just trust me anyway?

[mastin2]

*Suggests my innocence

[Radja]

I am not voting until someone lays out the claims to me.

[pirate mollie]

cerberus is 1 shot bp
xotme is some kind of sensor
the antagonist is vt
I am jk

I don't think there are any other claims. mastina keeps soft-claiming but won't say what it is.

if you have any fresh thoughts I am all ears cos I am tired of staring at my spreadsheet and this game and recycling the same thoughts in my head.

[ProHawk]

Mastina claimed vt. Which hilariously she uses to 'prove' she is town despite soft claiming the whole game.

[The Antagonist]

It even said that Jaqen's claim was weird, which is why I did not protect him.

bullshit.

Spoiler:

Okay. I am not really planning on reading 160 pages.
Feel free to give me a summary of what happened. Town points for being first.

@ radja

your slot claimed to have protected me n1, but we don't have a list for the rest oft nights. cld you mebbe fix that plz so we can piece together the holes and so I can do some nka? tia

Okay, I found that. I also saw one of my predecessors claim he protected Cephrir at one point, which is in fact not true.

N1: pirate mollie
N2: Scorpious
N3: was not submitted
N4: pirate mollie

So yeah, I'm the doc.

Okay, I am missing a lot of probably logical things here.

Saint was JK-ed by Mollie and because I protected mollie, he's scum?

Can someone explain that? I don't really see how that's related.

It would be nice to know what claims have been made too. Jaqen claimed tracker? Anything else?

or:

5) Mollie was the NK target, and I protected her?

Okay, good point. I thought we were talking about N1.
I can hammer that when everybody is ready.

in 4268 you acknowledged that jaqen claimed tracker and didn't say JACK SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING BEING WEIRD. if there were any legitimate concerns at the time, you would've said them then. you knew full well jaqen was a claimed investigative and if you were legitimately concerned about jaqen being compromised you would've said something. you didn't.

it's all bullshit.

[The Antagonist]

late game is not my strong suit

/late game specialist

reporting for duty

[Cerberus v666]

So, a few things, mainly aimed at Mastin.

Spoiler: First, about the subject of me feeling like I should just give up on keeping myself from getting lynched.

Yes, that's a decent description of how I felt. Here I am, with a role that's *ONLY* useful if I can get scum to think I'm someone important who they want to shoot, either through fake claiming/crumbing something threatening, or by simply being good at finding scum, and the person I replaced absolutely destroyed any chance I had of utilizing the first method, and I'm not nearly as "in tune", as it were, with the game as I need to be, to utilize the second.

You(and I actually think only you?) of all people in this game, know I CAN be extremely effective. However, in order to do so, I need to have a solid, growing understanding of how and why things have happened, and I just don't have that this game. I'm sinking, and it's unpleasant, and yes, it's *almost* enough for me to just let myself be lynched so I can chuckle at the people who were wrong about me from the dead thread. The only thing that kept me from that was, well, the simple pride I have in the fact that I do not get mislynched. It's simply not something I let happen.I was very concerned, however, that my contribution to the game would not outweigh the noise generated by the fact I remained alive.

Spoiler: About the Radja clearing:

You explicitly pointed out that were Radja scum, they would have had scum teammates coaching them so the person they claimed to protect actually made sense, instead of being someone who drew massive attention to them. YOu drew out the lines showing that scumradja NEVER claims to have protected antagonist. Ever. That's the similarity I saw to inorganic. "Scum TSO NEVER claims the weak cop and clears wicked. NEVER!" The exact reasons why were different, but the fundamental play is the same.

Spoiler: About the similarities of your failed plans in inorganic to the ones here:

In the scum PT itself you expected LC to claim commuter to protect you. You also(maybe I'm wrong here, i did kinda skim your iso because omg mastin you are an insufferable ass to read undiluted by anyone elses thoughts) made some mention of the whole option of killing me under the guise of a gambit involving protecting someone else, and explicitly said it would be incredibly stupid for town to do that, but you still considered it something you could try. Maybe the timing is wrong, and you had that thought *after* LC gave you cause in thread to claim that, maybe you had the thought before, but either way, that is perversion of a failed, RIDICULOUS, plan, to scum ends. I don't see any exonerating difference between that ridiculous plan, and these ridiculous plans. We have mastin attempting to predict the actions of other players and working to tell them, in thread, what they should do, without anyone else knowing. Sure, the in thread suggestion regarding who should be commuted may have come from LC(I'm actually not sure here, I'd need to reread that day to see where the thought first originated in thread), but that doesn't change the fact that your portrayal of the situation was of "oops crazy mastin plan gone wrong"

Spoiler: About Kaboose.

Okay. Stay with me here Mastin. Let's establish one thing before I go over this for the final time. In the world I live in, Kaboose is incapable of receiving results on non-turks. Okay? That is the foundation of everything. Pretend, for a moment, that you live in my world, and Kaboose only get's results from Turks.

If Kaboose was lying, as scum are wont to do:

You don't have an innocent on you. You *only* have an implied, not explicit, guilty. You made that guilty explicit, when you claimed VT.

Why would Kaboose scum do this? Perhaps he simply wanted to buddy up to you, reinforce the town read you had on him. You two are the ones with a connection, I'm sure you can think of a reason why Kaboose scum would make that play.

If Kaboose was telling the truth, and you are town(this is the important one)

He was incapable of receiving a result from you. Therefore, he was redirected elsewhere.
You are town, and VT, and Jaqens results are therefore incorrect.

How do both these things occur? There is a (certainly scum, because if town they would have cleared this up already) role which swapped you with a town turk with a NA, which they used on whoever died that night. That would return a town clear to kaboose, and a guilty to jaqen.

Why doesn't your scenario work?

If just jaqen were redirected, kaboose wouldn't have received a clear on you.

If just kaboose were redirected, jaqen wouldn't have seen you go anywhere.

I am 100% positive that Kaboose' role functioned the way I believe it does. The flavor makes sense, the fact that all the turks so far are town makes it make even more sense, and the other possibilites for the meaning of the modifier do not make sense.

Spoiler: About "kinda sorta having a grasp on on more or less what I'm like":

Lol. You're right that what you had to say isn't the sort of thing that would sway me at least.

Now, with all of that said, right now, Mastin, I would be voting you. Right here, in this post. But I really want to see your response to this post, and the best way to ensure that happens is to not make you closer to being lynched before you get the chance to answer.

I also really really really don't like the push on Radja. Is there any reason for it besides "oh man a bulletproof a jk and a doctor, no way town has that many protective roles!"?

[Radja]

What's "some kind of sensor"?

Can I get a character claim from you mollie?

I'd like mastin to explain how he was tracked to a nightkill victim.

[Cerberus v666]

What's "some kind of sensor"?

Can I get a character claim from you mollie?

I'd like mastin to explain how he was tracked to a nightkill victim.

Check my "about kaboose" spoiler. Basically, what she's decided is that jaqen must have been redirected to someone else, who visited the dead person that night, while kaboose was left unredirected. In that spoiler, I express why I believe she must be wrong.

Some kind of sensor: xtoxm/aeris could/can target a wagon and learn if there were 2+ non town FACTIONS on the wagon. They targeted the ZZZX wagon (right?) and learned that there were not 2+ non town factions on the wagon .

[pirate mollie]

What's "some kind of sensor"?

Can I get a character claim from you mollie?

I'd like mastin to explain how he was tracked to a nightkill victim.

I don't fully understand the sensor role it seems like they are able to sense whether or not more than 1 scumteam on a wagon but then I am confused as to why aeris didn't sensor the fss lynch.

cid

jaqen did not say that he had tracked mastina to a nk, if he did I wld have put more stock in it.