Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - thoughts on Garmr and the WK thought I had.

Intentionally not unvoting Ciara while asking this.

I don't think it's very likely. I read a little bit into Garmr's games as scum to see if he plays like this as scum (he doesn't); I also don't think that the condescension in the "I'm the only not idiot" in the attitude is faked and don't think it would feature so predominantly if we were trying to lynch a townie as a counterwagon to Garmr!scum trying to lynch a townie.

[Nachomamma8]

Silverwolf :/
It was my expectation for you-scum replacing in to give nothing of substance, and then avoid the thread for a little while. I see you doing exactly that.

[Bellaphant]

my main argument for Karmic is that some of her arguments and pushes seemed forced and reachy, as if she was looking for things to push people for.

aka RVS?

More like past RVs I swear your not even reading karmics case or just flat out ignoring it.

Yeah, it wan't RVS, though. Karmic's case on Woody was not rvs, and was a) based on tone and b) used weird, AtE phrases like 'gaslighting'. The first time she mentions Ciara is in the same post she votes her. They then sit on the fence over the Woody wagon (unvoting, but still saying it's a good wagon), weird town-reads on me and Dave for shit reasons, an attack on Garmr who I think is good town, and a bit lamist with the l-2.

Bellaphant, why do your vote and unvote posts never seem to have a comment on the person you are voting / unvoting? It's very disconcerting.

Ok, noted. It's a thought process thing - I'm less confident of one read, but not always 100% on another. I maybe need to play faster and looser with my vote in general.

my main argument for Karmic is that some of her arguments and pushes seemed forced and reachy, as if she was looking for things to push people for.

aka RVS?

I'll gladly admit that I reached a little on Ciara. Thor asked for a Ciara vote, I thought about it for a sec, re-read a couple of Ciara's posts, decided there wasn't much content in them, and voted. Day 1, you reach.

I still like the vote, though. I'll probably get crucified for saying this, but Ciara has withdrawn a ton and posted even less when I put pressure on her. I won't use the "L" word again, but she's become even more passive since this wagon on her started.

Bellaphant, why do your vote and unvote posts never seem to have a comment on the person you are voting / unvoting? It's very disconcerting.

I am also curious about this. Bella seems afraid to be too verbose.

Aaaand things like this are still 'reachy' - you are implying, what, that I don't wanna be caught making statements bc I'm worried of slipping? But instead of saying that you are making a random value judgement. Nah.

VOTE: Karmic

[Thor665]

@Nacho - thoughts on Garmr and the WK thought I had.

Intentionally not unvoting Ciara while asking this.

I don't think it's very likely. I read a little bit into Garmr's games as scum to see if he plays like this as scum (he doesn't); I also don't think that the condescension in the "I'm the only not idiot" in the attitude is faked and don't think it would feature so predominantly if we were trying to lynch a townie as a counterwagon to Garmr!scum trying to lynch a townie.

This makes me sad.

[pistachi0n]

I'm finding both cases to be relatively ok for D1 and what is bothering me the most is the vehemence against the wagons on both sides.

Why is this bothering you? In my experience, wagons in day 1 always have vehement opposition.

[SilverWolf]

Silverwolf :/
It was my expectation for you-scum replacing in to give nothing of substance, and then avoid the thread for a little while. I see you doing exactly that.

Well, I have a reason that has nothing to do with my alignment but I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for neglecting this thread. What I don't understand is how you would get this impression considering we have only played together one time, both as town and I've never done what you are describing above in any game ever so................random?

My opinion on the wagons is that Ciara has done nothing per ISO that looks town. I see no scumhunting, no real taking any stances on anything, and weak reads. I can understand and support the wagon. The only thing that worries me is she might be disinterested town. It would be better if she replaced out because it would be much easier to get a read on her. However, we are near deadline-I think? and if nothing else, this is a good info. lynch as there has been plenty of discussion on it.

You can consider this post intent-Ciara should claim at this point.

Regarding the Karmic wagon-I don't have a problem with it but the points are not as strong on him. The WW lie I don't give a shit about unless there was a scumslip and I don't see it. Reaching and using bad tells-not sure what is scummy about this? I've seen town do that plenty. What else is there again?

Garmr's stance on the Ciara wagon is extreme but I don't think it's WKing. I've played in a game where he was scum and he did not take chances like that. It would be an odd thing to do as scum for no real gain. It's not like it would give him massive towncred or anything. So meh, I don't see it.

[davesaz]

I'm finding both cases to be relatively ok for D1 and what is bothering me the most is the vehemence against the wagons on both sides.

Why is this bothering you? In my experience, wagons in day 1 always have vehement opposition.

It would be more accurate to say the opposition to wagoning itself, not so much opposition to a particular wagon. Like the whole concept of thinking someone is scummy merely because they want a wagon. There is a difference between that, and saying the case for a specific wagon is scummy.

[davesaz]

You can consider this post intent-Ciara should claim at this point.

I guess you missed the post where intent was already given?

[Nachomamma8]

Silverwolf, your opening in Nightless in Team Mafia gave me the impression you didn't like playing scum so I was just prodding a bit to see what shook out.

[Garmr]

I will admit to having a little superiority complex when playing mafia on the forums as I find it to reassure myself about my decisions.. Also playing safe for me isn't a scum trait as I will do it as town as well espically if I'm unsure of what to do or I find things in the game to be going the way I see it, just to make that clear for future games.

[KarmicGuide]

Regarding the Karmic wagon-I don't have a problem with it but the points are not as strong on him. The WW lie I don't give a shit about unless there was a scumslip and I don't see it. Reaching and using bad tells-not sure what is scummy about this? I've seen town do that plenty. What else is there again?

Exactly! XD

You work with what you have, D1, man. Of

course

I don't have any hard scumslips on Ciara. It's day 1, and she's disappeared.

Here's my perception of the whole crew right now.

Nacho, Thor, Dave, Gimlear = Town? I feel pretty confident that these people would be terrible D1 lynches.

Bellaphant = Seems like a good town asset, though obviously I don't love the vote on me. Probably not scum? Bad D1 lynch.

Eventi = Not much to go on, kind of seems like unlikely scum... Also feels like a smart player. Could be a great town asset with more contribution. Bad D1 lynch.

Gummy, Radja = No idea, not great D1 lynches, though, because there's just not much substance in their posts to go on for D2. Sorry you have the flu, Radja. Maybe replace out soon, if you aren't up to doing more than prod-dodging.

Garmr = IDK, I'm conflicted. If Nacho says he's probably town, I'm inclined to barn that.

Pistachi0n = I hate the word "strawman" so much. It makes me feel like I've wandered into a bad subreddit. Otherwise, IDK.

Silverwolf = If I'm viewing you as you/Woody, I felt like Woody was a bundle of nerves, was posting a lot to try and look town, was tunneling me for tunneling him, and was a great D1 lynch. I don't really know what the protocol is for people who replace in, but if I judge your "person" by WW, you're definitely someone I have my eye on. IDK what my read on you as a player is yet. For the time being at least, I would feel like kind of a dick for killing someone who seems like they're trying, in a game that is sorely in need of people who want to be here and want to play.

Ciara = Wasn't doing the best scumhunting, and has hardly posted since her wagon started.

So of that group, I count six people who feel like likely town to me, four people who I just have no idea on, for a total of ten garbage D1 lynches. Silverwolf, I'd kind of like to observe in D2 and see what happens. That leaves Ciara.

So no, I can't point to much of Ciara's content and say "that's the scumslip, that's the lie." Those posts don't exist, because Ciara has stayed clear of this thread since the wagon on her started. Maybe she's just busy, but even when she was here, she always seemed afraid to post confident opinions.

It's not an airtight wagon, no. It's a gutread, plus some supporting evidence. I think it's actually a pretty good wagon, relative to what you sometimes get on D1, and either way, it beats a no-lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Eventi = Not much to go on, kind of seems like unlikely scum... Also feels like a smart player. Could be a great town asset with more contribution. Bad D1 lynch.

Why does eventi seem like unlikely scum to you?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm also confused how Gummy and Radja are bad lynches because they haven't produced enough but Ciara somehow has?

[eventi]

Ok I just reread from post 100 and I know Woody said Karmic lied (over and over) but I still don't see what the lie was. I believe Karmic asked, but I didnt see the answer. Are you basing your read on Karmic on your own read or Woody's?

I mentioned in my first post when I replaced in that I thought the "Karmic lied" bit was just a misunderstanding. Basically, Woody was saying that Karmic lied about Woody's immediate vote/unvote on page 2. But Woody has since provided other evidence for the case on Karmic.

Also, I'm basing my read on Karmic from a combination of Woody and Garmr's reads. Like I've said a million times already, it's not a solid case, but I think it's better than the case on Ciara.

I don't think there's any point in replying to this after Thor's posts - The case on Karmic is very weak.

[Thor665]

The case on Karmic is very weak.

It's only "weak" insomuch as it's a Day 1 case.
The issue I have with the case is the disjointed failure to actually talk particularly clearly about the issues with Karmic - individual votes on him are weak.

I am citing the 'G-boys' as the top offenders in this category. Gimlear is basically accusing him of changing his mind, and Garmr is too mighty and powerful to even deign to justify his vote when questioned. Neither reaction is pro-town.

[eventi]

...
Silverwolf = If I'm viewing you as you/Woody, I felt like Woody was a bundle of nerves, was posting a lot to try and look town, was tunneling me for tunneling him, and was a great D1 lynch. I don't really know what the protocol is for people who replace in, but if I judge your "person" by WW, you're definitely someone I have my eye on. IDK what my read on you as a player is yet. For the time being at least, I would feel like kind of a dick for killing someone who seems like they're trying, in a game that is sorely in need of people who want to be here and want to play.

I thought WW was shiny lynch bait, probably town, but that might have been hard to see if it was directed at you. He questioned me, didn't like my antagonistic reply but I realized that he was sort of compulsively following up on every post mentioning him, so I dropped it. He never picked it back up which kinda confirmed this for me. I think he had a compulsion to reply to everything which was amplifying every petty thing to the point of creating the noise on pages 4-6.

I don't think it was inherently scummy. I don't think the purpose was to appear town.

[Garmr]

The case on Karmic is very weak.

It's only "weak" insomuch as it's a Day 1 case.
The issue I have with the case is the disjointed failure to actually talk particularly clearly about the issues with Karmic - individual votes on him are weak.

I am citing the 'G-boys' as the top offenders in this category. Gimlear is basically accusing him of changing his mind, and Garmr is too mighty and powerful to even deign to justify his vote when questioned. Neither reaction is pro-town.

pff my points on him are still valid others have noted that through it's been controversial. I'm actually starting to think your scum.

[eventi]

@Garmr, just skimmed your iso and the only point I see you make is 255 that Karmic called Ciara a lurker.

What did I miss?

[Thor665]

The case on Karmic is very weak.

It's only "weak" insomuch as it's a Day 1 case.
The issue I have with the case is the disjointed failure to actually talk particularly clearly about the issues with Karmic - individual votes on him are weak.

I am citing the 'G-boys' as the top offenders in this category. Gimlear is basically accusing him of changing his mind, and Garmr is too mighty and powerful to even deign to justify his vote when questioned. Neither reaction is pro-town.

pff my points on him are still valid others have noted that through it's been controversial. I'm actually starting to think your scum.

That's fine - I'm still thinking you haven't defended the case and keep trying to big-dog it every time I ask you to.
For instance, this post, as usual, doesn't actually state the case with specific points, but does so in an incredibly loose way.
Which is weird because you were able to answer me when I asked about Nacho, and though you had to clarify it as a null read you were able to point at something. Maybe you're horrified that your case is so soft that when explaining it you'll need to admit this or something? I don't get it. It is anti-town though, sorry that pointing this out shows my scum colors, I'm usually better at scum than this.

[Thor665]

I don't like this post to say some one is lurky after only a couple of days RL is unjustified and reachy.

As far as I can tell, this is your case.

Am I wrong?
We can 20 question this down - I have nothing better to do.

[Thor665]

VOTE: karmic guide
for reasons previously stated and and a dave wagon doesn't seem to be happening today.

Looking like it...

[Thor665]

I don't like the fact karmic guide was trying to portray ciara as a lurker when it had been like one day at most since ciaras last reply. That seems extremely scummy to me.

I'm really pretty sure this is the case - right?

[Thor665]

Is the Karmic is reaching argument referring to the "Ciara is lurky" statement?
If not, what is it referring to?

That's just the tip of the ice berg ²64 not only did he change his story to produced no town content which is another reach. He accused me of role hunting and trying to tell my scum team

Here's the second half of the case - I am pretty sure that's all of it.

[gummmybear]

Bah, my post got swallowed up. @Thor, Looking at the wagon, I don't like pistachon for the way he's hopped onto the wagon, going from not wanting to be anyway near a Ciara lynch to slipping on with the reason of not liking the other wagon - without any provocation and doing so rather quietly (and early in the wagon at 4th place). Don't like how he switches his read on you in less than a page for "looking town" and doesn't really specify or mention anything. Does this seem weird to anyone else?

eventi also seems strange to me, I'm not so sure about the rest. Need to read more.

[Thor665]

@Thor, Looking at the wagon, I don't like pistachon for the way he's hopped onto the wagon, going from not wanting to be anyway near a Ciara lynch to slipping on with the reason of not liking the other wagon - without any provocation and doing so rather quietly (and early in the wagon at 4th place). Don't like how he switches his read on you in less than a page for "looking town" and doesn't really specify or mention anything. Does this seem weird to anyone else?

eventi also seems strange to me, I'm not so sure about the rest. Need to read more.

I might have shared your Eventi issues a few pages ago, but his current posting vibes town for me.

You have a good point about Pistach - that was an odd way to hop on the wagon, basically just citing fear of a theory deadline.