Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[davesaz]

First post of the day and votes right off. Asks for claims in the same post. The timing twigs me a bit, I've seen scum act like that after a failed kill to try to spook out the PRs.

[Gimlear]

First post of the day and votes right off. Asks for claims in the same post. The timing twigs me a bit, I've seen scum act like that after a failed kill to try to spook out the PRs.

Maybe, but I can see the Town motivation as well. What I find more interesting is that Radja claimed cop and vindicated Bella right after Nacho started scrutinizing Bella. It could be coincidence, but it is still interesting.

[Radja]

First post of the day and votes right off. Asks for claims in the same post. The timing twigs me a bit, I've seen scum act like that after a failed kill to try to spook out the PRs.

Maybe, but I can see the Town motivation as well. What I find more interesting is that Radja claimed cop and vindicated Bella right after Nacho started scrutinizing Bella. It could be coincidence, but it is still interesting.

Are you suggesting I would fakeclaim cop to clear Bella?

[eventi]

You showed no concern about what karmic was and only the fact you were brought up. When karmic was kissing your ass so that his nose turned brown a townies first reaction should be why is he doing that. Not why are you asking that question to karmic so you can continue to get brown nosed.

Now your looking for a way out of this line of questioning because you don't have a answer you god damn fucked up

:p

Sorry I missed replying to this before - did you think there's a question directed at me that I'm trying to avoid?

[Gimlear]

Are you suggesting I would fakeclaim cop to clear Bella?

It's unlikely, especially without a counterclaim, but it is a possibility.

[Radja]

So you're saying I would risk getting counterclaimed just to clear a scumbuddy, with a big risk of having it all blow up in my face by having a real cop out there?

[eventi]

He goes back on it latter saying his read of you is jumping up and down.

That's why we were trying to get a response out of him by applying pressure but you jumped in and broke the flow.

Tbh If you were reading the whole conversation like a good townie should (which there wasn't much of i would understand if it had been going on for pages but a couple of posts lol) Tbh at the time you should of been a null read at best as you didn't provide much info at the time.

Are you imagining this or something? Did you think you and Radja were interrogating Karmic?

[eventi]

Thor, I'm scum reading your attempt to push a huge wagon on Ciara. And like Dave just said, we (probably) have 8 calendar days. I'm not feeling the danger of a no lynch yet. I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game. If a no lynch seems impending after a few more calendar days, I will join a wagon that you are not on.

Thor, you're strawmanning the agruments against you. I'm not voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon. That's inane. I'm voting for you because you're trying to start a wagon with bad reasons. The other wagons I'm fine with.

Thor's reactions since the last time I posted seem town. I still don't like the Ciara wagon, but Karmic is a stronger town read. With no posted countdown, I can't bet on it being 2 weeks. So fine.

VOTE: Ciara

This string of posts from Pista seem really suspicious in light of the Ciara flip. Up until post 244, he had been mostly avoiding the whole Ciara wagon issue. Then he goes from being adamant about not joining the Ciara wagon to "reluctantly" joining the Ciara wagon because he has a stronger town read on Karmic even though he mentioned in his previous post that he was fine with the other wagons (of which the biggest one was Karmic).

VOTE: Pista

This is very convincing

[Garmr]

He goes back on it latter saying his read of you is jumping up and down.

That's why we were trying to get a response out of him by applying pressure but you jumped in and broke the flow.

Tbh If you were reading the whole conversation like a good townie should (which there wasn't much of i would understand if it had been going on for pages but a couple of posts lol) Tbh at the time you should of been a null read at best as you didn't provide much info at the time.

Are you imagining this or something? Did you think you and Radja were interrogating Karmic?

You reliaze I first brought it up and now your trying to dismiss what karmic said by changing the subject pathetic

[Garmr]

I'm finding both cases to be relatively ok for D1 and what is bothering me the most is the vehemence against the wagons on both sides.

Besides Karmic (who, naturally will dislike the wagon on him) who would you describe as vehement against the Karmic wagon? It seems it would have to be, and only consisting of, Nacho - who is defending the Karmic wagon, but isn't exactly barn nurning in the same way that Garmr or Glim are dogging on the Ciara wagon.

Or am I missing something from the inside looking out?

Granted, vehement is probably too strong a term. There is opposition, some of which is direct in the form of questioning the wagon(s) and some in the form of pushing the other wagon.

this ciara wagon raced awfully fast to L-1 and is giving me weird vibes.

Also that was a respond to prod, so I believe Ciara should have been prodded as well. No hammers please before she returns.

What do you consider fast? It's not like it popped up out of nowhere and got to L-1 the same day. Also while I agree that we want a reply to the L-1 situation, we can't just wait forever. I think we have a decent chance of catching scum with this wagon. The main reason we would move off it would be if there were a credible PR claim. This late in the day, getting cold feet on the absent player and a mad dash to another is a really bad idea. In fact, I'm comfortable with stating hammer intent at this point.

I don't like wagons for the sake of wagons. As I mentioned before, Karmic has a couple people making decent arguments against him. The arguments against Ciara are practically non-existent.

What would you say is the most convincing argument against Karmic?

I'm finding both cases to be relatively ok for D1 and what is bothering me the most is the vehemence against the wagons on both sides.

@thor that wasn't my only point. So don't act like it was. Dave pretty much ignored the ciara wagon all day till post 354.

He questions the karma wagon despite having a vote on it earlier and saying that both wagons are OK. Yet doesn't do the same for ciara.

He never gives a reason why he prefers one over the and he spends most the day voting on people who probably won't get lynched.

372 is the closetist to a reasoning and even then its only facts irrelevant to reading ones alignment.

First multiquote on a phone

[eventi]

He goes back on it latter saying his read of you is jumping up and down.

That's why we were trying to get a response out of him by applying pressure but you jumped in and broke the flow.

Tbh If you were reading the whole conversation like a good townie should (which there wasn't much of i would understand if it had been going on for pages but a couple of posts lol) Tbh at the time you should of been a null read at best as you didn't provide much info at the time.

Are you imagining this or something? Did you think you and Radja were interrogating Karmic?

You reliaze I first brought it up and now your trying to dismiss what karmic said by changing the subject pathetic

I have to ask, do you remember what you're accusing me of?

You didn't like me asking Radja why he was asking Karmic about me. Karmic hasn't replied, so how can I be dismissing what he said? And you were no part of that question, I don't get why you're saying "we".

@Radja, you're the other part of Gamr's eventi hunting team... do you get what he's saying?

[Garmr]

That's right event I just scarecrow the whole convo

[Garmr]

So event I who are your scum reads

[Gimlear]

So you're saying I would risk getting counterclaimed just to clear a scumbuddy, with a big risk of having it all blow up in my face by having a real cop out there?

At this point I would say it's unlikely but not impossible. There are plenty of reasons for scum to fakeclaim cop even with the threat of counterclaim because a counterclaim does not necessarily mean the first claim was scum.

[Thor665]

@thor that wasn't my only point. So don't act like it was. Dave pretty much ignored the ciara wagon all day till post 354.

He questions the karma wagon despite having a vote on it earlier and saying that both wagons are OK. Yet doesn't do the same for ciara.

He never gives a reason why he prefers one over the and he spends most the day voting on people who probably won't get lynched.

372 is the closetist to a reasoning and even then its only facts irrelevant to reading ones alignment.

First multiquote on a phone

I can agree that ignoring a wagon could be scummy. But, frankly, so can opposing it - especially when it is a PR.

I am not sure why evidence of him opposing the Karmic wagon but not opposing the Ciara one makes him more likely scum after a Ciara scum flip - can you expand on that thought?

He might be scummy for trying to avoid the wagons, but I thought you also docked him for supporting and questioning the Karmic one. Isn't that a bit of an either/or situation?

You also cited my case on Ciara as lacking real evidence to the point you were planning to fake claim to get me lynched. Are you sure this time that his case is legibly bad, unlike mine wherein it was simply a case you disagreed with as opposed to a scummy case? They are different things.

[Garmr]

@thor that wasn't my only point. So don't act like it was. Dave pretty much ignored the ciara wagon all day till post 354.

He questions the karma wagon despite having a vote on it earlier and saying that both wagons are OK. Yet doesn't do the same for ciara.

He never gives a reason why he prefers one over the and he spends most the day voting on people who probably won't get lynched.

372 is the closetist to a reasoning and even then its only facts irrelevant to reading ones alignment.

First multiquote on a phone

I can agree that ignoring a wagon could be scummy. But, frankly, so can opposing it - especially when it is a PR.

I am not sure why evidence of him opposing the Karmic wagon but not opposing the Ciara one makes him more likely scum after a Ciara scum flip - can you expand on that thought?

He might be scummy for trying to avoid the wagons, but I thought you also docked him for supporting and questioning the Karmic one. Isn't that a bit of an either/or situation?

You also cited my case on Ciara as lacking real evidence to the point you were planning to fake claim to get me lynched. Are you sure this time that his case is legibly bad, unlike mine wherein it was simply a case you disagreed with as opposed to a scummy case? They are different things.

I was thinking more along the line of he may of had knowledge of the wagons and that's why he was questioning one and not the other.

Also Thor, he didn't add anything to the convo so there can't be anything that could be wrong not like me you and ciara.

Bringing up how I was wrong with ciara doesn't mean all my reads ate wrong Thor I was right about Bella being town. You also know I can be right sometimes remember when I lynched aero and Titus when I was a hider and you were scum.

[SilverWolf]

Kind of a catch up, recap of where I see things right now:

Ciara's interactions were mostly with Thor and the fact that Thor pushed Ciara all day after that and worked hard to get her lynched really doesn't make sense as a buddy connection. Did someone mention Thor likes to defend his buddies as scum? Garmr was a heavy busser in the last game I played with him where he was scum. I don't see him so strongly defending his buddy to the extent he defended Ciara. So I'm ruling these two out for now as partners. Plus a lot of their interactions D1 reminded me of stubborn town determined to get the lynch they want. I saw it before with Titus and Wisdom in a game I played.

Dave is someone I have a hard time reading in games as I pretty much scumread him always. Last game I think I had a scumread on him all game and he was town. The game before that he was scum. But I have a neutral read there for now. I'm gonna re-read that scum game since it's been awhile.

Bella was totally null but considering the cop clear, she can be town for now. Radja is town for now due to his claim.

Gimlear's 497 make's some good points on Pista. Regarding his reaction to the wagons, some of it is him trying to sort Thor which is townie. But then he has some of this. Here he votes Karmic over Ciara 272 defends that here in 274 and 304. There's a lot more of this in his ISO but I'm not going to list them all out. It's mostly arguing with Thor about Ciara vs Karmic. Later he talks about wanting to hammer Ciara in 444. It was close to deadline. Despite this I'm getting a slight town feel from his ISO. I feel like he's trying hard to sort Thor and figure out which wagon is better in a way that looks more town than scum.

eventi doesn't have much to say except an L-1 vote on Ciara on 348. He gave an opinion of WW as lynchbait. Concerned about what others thing of Karmic's opinion of him here 456. That seems off to me. Why worry about things like that? Town generally doesn't care how they look. 507 Likes case on pista but no real stance on it otherwise.

@Eventi-how are you reading Pista right now?

Karmic still leans town to me. I revewied his and Ciara's ISO's extensively when I replaced in and his place on the Ciara wagon looks good.

Naco is not making much of an impression on me at all which is somewhat worriesome. Not sure here yet. I need to explore this more.

gummybear has very few posts and a couple of them look townish. However, He's pushing the Karmic wagon here 267 and not liking Ciara wagon here 362. Hops onto pista here 434 and doesn't like pista's reasons for voting Ciara. Really seems to be working hard to avoid the Ciara wagon and is defending her as well plus trying to get a different wagon going. This is FoS territory right here.

pistachiOn tunnels WW right away, has Karmic as a townread, in 202 votes Thor for his case on Ciara. Jumps on her here 305. Says Karmic is his only townread and says Ciara is chickening out. This actually looks worse than gummybear.

Right now, I can go with pista, gummy, eventi-in that order as scumreads.

VOTE: pistachiOn

[gummmybear]

gummybear has very few posts and a couple of them look townish. However, He's pushing the Karmic wagon here 267 and not liking Ciara wagon here 362. Hops onto pista here 434 and doesn't like pista's reasons for voting Ciara. Really seems to be working hard to avoid the Ciara wagon and is defending her as well plus trying to get a different wagon going. This is FoS territory right here.

VOTE: pistachiOn

Silverwolf, you're working awfully hard to paint me as scummy. I really enjoy how you are taking my posts out of context - especially on escalating my views on Ciara wagon into defending Ciara. Really, really do. I also enjoy how everyone is rehashing my case on pista and using it to attack him, but presenting it as new evidence that they are discovering on their own. Did any of you even bother reading my case?

Silverwolf, you list my 434 as hopping on Pista and not liking pista's reasons for voting and use it to justify me as avoiding the Ciara wagon and defending her, and trying to get a different wagon. In that post, I've posted an entire case complete with lovely quotes on why I feel pistachi0n is scummy and worth looking into - points which all of you seem to agree with. I also a soft hammer/vote intent in the last line - that I'm happy to hop onto any of the other wagons if there's a danger of nolynch, and that Ciara is 1 away from lynch (with 3 hammer intents to boot on her - unstated by me in the post though) - I'm happy to come back and hammer her if everyone else disappears before deadline. How is stating this defending her? Is this scum repeating a lie until it becomes truth? Or did you just not read my post?

Also, right above, you quote Gimlear's points on pista, then below you do a quick summary of his actions and the reasons for you voting him. BOTH of these - Gimlear's points, and most of your points on pista, have long been stated in my 434. Yet, both of you, and pretty much the rest of the playerbase, INCLUDING pistachi0n himself, have been ignoring my case and are instead trying to paint me as scummy, but yet reuse the same points to attack pistachi0n. Again, have you even read my post before using it to accuse me? This is rubbish. I'm happy with you and many people putting suspicion on me for lack of activity, for I did lurk and flake and have rightfully earned that suspicion. Even pushing the Karmic wagon - that was a veiled prod dodge and also a poke to see what reactions I'd get (spoiler alert: I flaked after that, so I never read any of it). But defending Ciara? Avoiding her wagon? That's nonsense.

In other news, especially in the light of yesterday's flip and pistachi0n not addressing any points on him, I'm happy to VOTE: pistachi0n. Why? Read my bloody case in 434

[Radja]

So you're saying I would risk getting counterclaimed just to clear a scumbuddy, with a big risk of having it all blow up in my face by having a real cop out there?

At this point I would say it's unlikely but not impossible. There are plenty of reasons for scum to fakeclaim cop even with the threat of counterclaim because a counterclaim does not necessarily mean the first claim was scum.

Just how would it benefit me at this point?

[Bellaphant]

at mod, VLa til Sunday, thanks.

[eventi]

eventi doesn't have much to say except an L-1 vote on Ciara on 348. He gave an opinion of WW as lynchbait. Concerned about what others thing of Karmic's opinion of him here 456. That seems off to me. Why worry about things like that? Town generally doesn't care how they look. 507 Likes case on pista but no real stance on it otherwise.

@Eventi-how are you reading Pista right now?

Scum lean, but I haven't had time to really analyze. Also, I don't really care about Karmic's opinion of me, or rather what others think about Karmic's opinion of me, I just wanted to know why Radja only wanted to know what Karma thought - that seemed strange to me, and so I asked and I would have left it at that if it wasn't for garnr pressing it.

[Garmr]

eventi doesn't have much to say except an L-1 vote on Ciara on 348. He gave an opinion of WW as lynchbait. Concerned about what others thing of Karmic's opinion of him here 456. That seems off to me. Why worry about things like that? Town generally doesn't care how they look. 507 Likes case on pista but no real stance on it otherwise.

@Eventi-how are you reading Pista right now?

Scum lean, but I haven't had time to really analyze. Also, I don't really care about Karmic's opinion of me, or rather what others think about Karmic's opinion of me, I just wanted to know why Radja only wanted to know what Karma thought - that seemed strange to me, and so I asked and I would have left it at that if it wasn't for garnr pressing it.

You don't really expect that explanation to hold up do you. You even trying to pass the buck by your inability to answer it onto me there. Even through it's in the same vain as I been pushing you on it. I think your smart enough to see why people see you as scummy but your feigning being stupid.


Seriously there's so many people scum reading you and not a lot of votes.

VOTE: Eventi in case i already haven't

[eventi]

That's right event I just scarecrow the whole convo

Do you mean strawman? So if it's not me asking Radja why he wanted Karmic's read of me, what is it?

You're tunneling on me so hard you've stopped making sense

[Nachomamma8]

Am going to have limited time for a little while; my time here is mostly going to spent generating information over pushing reads, so sorry in advance for bringing up a bunch of old stuff ;[

@Gimlear:

Thor's play seems weird. First, he votes Ciara with no stated reason then attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary. Also, his blatant attempts to get Woody and Garmr to follow his lead and vote Ciara reek of scum trying to push a weak wagon.

I'm actually the most interested in your thoughts on Thor's alignment today; you seemed the one who was the most critical of Thor's play based on handling the push and I'm wondering if some of that paranoia carried over today or if you think that he's absolutely town. I have my own thoughts of him (which is going to have a bit of personal experience weaved in, sorry!) which I'm waiting to share until certain other people have their say.

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

I can't say I see where you got this impression from. Thor's first post was voting Ciara while stating that he would share his reasoning if requested by the mod, which... doesn't sound anything like pre-game discussion at all?

I asked Thor some questions in an attempt to get a read on him, and he answered them in a satisfactory way. I may not like his reasons, but at least he has explained his reasons. You have yet to explain what about what about Dave's meta makes him look scummy in this game or why Karmic's posts actions have been scummy.

One of my major concerns about you coming into today was the way it seemed like you flipped from suspecting Thor to supporting him and pushing Ciara when her lynch seemed inevitable down the road; the way you're approaching Thor here makes me feel a little bit better about the push in general, although, I still don't really understand why you pushed for the Karmic wagon in the first place. I understand why you chose Karmic over Ciara, but I don't understand why those were the only two viable choices: you had no problem making waves and pushing Thor earlier in the game, but suddenly later you can't vote anything that's not a wagon?

This question is significant to me because it makes sense that scum in your position would limit his options to his scumbuddy and the counterwagon townie; pushing a different vanity wagon could potentially put two scum in trouble early which would be bad and also wouldn't really help your buddy, while pushing partner for towncred/fighting for her survival by pushing the counterwagon are two moves that make a great deal more sense.

This is a valid point, which is why I was considering an intent to hammer on Ciara before the others already did it. Regardless, I third the intent to hammer on Ciara.

This post is a pretty good representation of a couple of the problems I have with your interactions with Ciara. For one, you always seem to be acting in Ciara's best interest for a majority of the day (explaining why the case on her is weak, voting the counterwagon) despite not having a townread on the slot. And then, when Ciara is in trouble beyond trouble, you suddenly make sure that you are seen supporting the wagon (by declaring a third hammer intent when it

really

wasn't necessary and talking about declaring an intent to hammer before others did despite not saying anything about it in thread), which are exactly the type of interactions I expect to be happening from at least one scum.

@Radja: While I was initially wary of Thor for pushing the Ciara wagon so hard so early, I'm getting a much better town vibe from him now that he has explained his thought processes.

What points did you like from Thor that made the wagon more appealing than before? It was my impression that the reasons for the wagon never changed from the beginning; they just ended up gaining strength because Ciara continued to lurk and dodge.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Gimlear

Putting my vote here as a bit of an exploration, no need to be as aggressive with a cop on the spot.

My major concern at this point, for those who don't care to read much, is mostly the interaction Gim's had with the Thor wagon. Gim ends up defending Ciara without defending her for a majority of the day; he calls the wagon on her weak, he prods at the wagon's main aggressor. I thought that the way that he limited his options to Ciara/Karmic when he wasn't really hyped about either wagon was to increase Ciara's chance of survival; it doesn't make sense to me for him to focus on those two wagons and those two wagons only for any other reason. I also thought that his shift away from Thor was unnatural; I don't think Thor's reasons for lynching Ciara changed significantly throughout the day and so Gimlear not being sold by the Ciara case until it looked like Ciara was a dead woman walking and then suddenly being moved seems fishy to me.