Mini-Normal 1713: Mystery Mansion Mafia (GAME OVER)

[SilverWolf]

/confirm

[SilverWolf]

Hi all.

VOTE: Grayfoxxxx

All those X's are too much to type. Or I'm just tired this morning. One of those.

[SilverWolf]

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

Performer. What exactly were you hoping to learn from those particular RQS questions and how would that help you determine anyone's alignment this game?

[SilverWolf]

Kind of looked like it to me, but could be spur of the moment bantering I guess. Still looks town regardless. Not really inclined to join either of those wagons right now. We should get one going possibly on Davsto or Performer. Both of them seem a little awkward.

On that note.

VOTE: Performer

[SilverWolf]

Also, I don't recognize most of you guys here, I want to do an RQS as well lol.

My answers in bold.

What is one fm game that stands out in your memory?

NY 180-That game was just bizarre in so many ways.

Would you say you play as a better mafia scum or townie?

Better as town but scum game is improving.

What is the strangest fm game you ever played?

Probably the micro Russian Roulette-it was not your typical mafia game but super fun-much trolling was had.

Have you ever dated anyone from fm?

Nope-I'm a married woman.

What is a fun fact about yourself?

I have 3 cats, 2 dogs, and 2 fishtanks.

[SilverWolf]

Also. Performer-Are you gonna answer these questions too?

[SilverWolf]

@Expedience

Slandaar is practically confirmed Town, no scum would pull such an obscene gambit.

Why wouldn't he do it as scum?

Wanderer stated that Slandaar plays like this as town so he could just be acting 'consistently'. I don't see the risk/gambit in what he did.
--

@Silverwolf

- Same question as above.

He could do it as scum but it doesn't seem likely right now. The banter between him and Accountant seemed pretty carefree and easygoing. I see nothing scummy there and still don't understand the wagon on either one of them. I've seen town claims in several games and every single time the person has been town. I've also seen the joking scum claims and most times they are town but not always. However, I'm not seeing anything scummy in Accountant's play right now.

[SilverWolf]

Back on topic,

I think Wolfie and Expedience (Expy?) are being silly in thinking of this as some daring gambit. It's a simple joke that plenty of people as either alignment do all the time. "Practically confirmed town" is ridiculous.

It's weird that the gambit language has been repeated so much. And Wolfie looks like she has a lot more experience, it's weird that she'd buy into this kind of logic if she were actually trying to figure out if Slandaar were town or scum.

VOTE: SilverWolf

Where did I say it was some daring gambit? My 47 and 49 clearly explained I though this was town so far. How exactly is this vote worthy again? It seems you are making a big deal out of nothing.

[SilverWolf]

Back on topic,

I think Wolfie and Expedience (Expy?) are being silly in thinking of this as some daring gambit. It's a simple joke that plenty of people as either alignment do all the time. "Practically confirmed town" is ridiculous.

It's weird that the gambit language has been repeated so much. And Wolfie looks like she has a lot more experience, it's weird that she'd buy into this kind of logic if she were actually trying to figure out if Slandaar were town or scum.

VOTE: SilverWolf

Definitely agreeing here.

Slandaar's comment and the other person's follow up was blatantly a joke, and why people are actually voting on the two based on that is beyond me. It's like super-reaching, trying to find evidence when there's nothing.

VOTE: SilverWolf

You are basically agreeing with me that the votes on Slandaar and Accountant are bad which is exactly what I said and for some reason you are going to sheep a vote on me for that? Why are you doing this, instead of voting for the people who are putting down the "super-reaching" "trying to find evidence when there is nothing" votes instead? This whole though process lacks basic logic and looks scummy.

pedit: OK, thank you for clariftying, this makes more sense. If you want, I can pull quotes where people have said that as town. In no way, does this clear either one of them. But for now, I don't think there is any reason to vote them for it.

pedit2: Yeah, I think there was some confusion there for sure.

[SilverWolf]

I like where this is going.

Also making a mental note for 68.

What exactly do you like about it? Especially considering Davsto appeared to be confused with his vote?

[SilverWolf]

No worries. I think I'm going to do a meta dive on Slaandar in a little bit here.

[SilverWolf]

I'm a she and there is no buddying involved. It called reading something a certain way, which is something we all should be doing this game. I can't go around all game and label everything everyone does as null and my experience has zero to do with how I read things. I said it once, I'll say it again-I got a easygoing, carefree feel from it that I associate more with town than scum, plus I don't see the point of scum coming out and saying something like that to start the game off because it draws a lot of heat for no reason. I also said it was not a townclear for the whole game but there's nothing scummy in it for right now. I find it extremely odd that this is such a huge focus right now when the whole thing was a pretty small blip on the radar of this game so far.

But just because I find this kind of stuff interesting, here's a couple of examples of people claiming town in games I've been in. I can't directly quote, because the games are locked but I'll copy and paste and then link them.

/confirm

fucking finally I rolled town

That was from Wisdom who was town in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=19897

Good news, guys! I totally rolled town this game.

Also, I'm on V/LA until Tuesday. Boo procrastination, boo homework.

That was from Grib, later replaced by goodmorning who was town in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=23735

I have never seen scum do it. Does it mean they won't? Nope. It just means, in my experience, it usually comes from town which is a good enough reason for me to say it's not scum right now. My opinion on Slaandar's or anyone's alignment is subject to change without notice.

[SilverWolf]

I use meta quite a bit when I play and that's not even meta. It's the reason I don't find it scummy right now. You may feel it is substanceless but I find my experience with this kind of thing to be useful in explaining my thought process.

I think you just kind of sheeped Akarin when you used my experience as a reason why I shouldn't be reading things the way I am. Thanks for the advice on how I should be playing, but I'll go ahead do things my way. It's worked well for me in games past so I see no reason not to continue it here.

[SilverWolf]

I think that you shouldn't be townreading based on meta. Meta is flexible, easily changed and can be used to justify almost anything. I'm sure I could find three examples of scum claiming town as well.

Are they games where they did it right away at the beginning of the game and also games you played in as well as saw it first hand like mine were? If you can find that, I'll completely retract my statement all together.

I said you were possibly buddying because I think that you might be trying to use meta to cover up the fact that your townread is actually quite substance-less.

Do you even know what the definition of buddying is? Continuing to read everything as null means the game goes nowhere. You have to give opinions on things. It's how the game is played.

That's fine for you, but even if town!SW uses this type of thought process, scum!SW could use it too.

Sure, I'm not asking you to townread me off of it. I'm explaining my thought process. You go ahead and read it however you want.

[SilverWolf]

I did use tone to read those posts. Tone was a big part of how I read them. When I have more to work with, I will be using ISO and content to anlayze. I always do. That's not going to change. I will be wanting to see a lot more from people this game before I do that though.

[SilverWolf]

Also, I have never played in a game where where scum claimed town at the beginning of the game. My point was, every game where someone has done that, they've been town. I specifically said, I've never seen scum do it like that. Not sure how you got that I've ever played in a game where scum have claimed town?

[SilverWolf]

SilverWolf is an experienced player. She should know that claiming town is a null-tell, because it's a behavior that can be easily faked by scum(especially by scum who know that SilverWolf has played in a few games where scum claimed town at the beginning of the game).

I got that from this part of your post. Did I misread what you were trying to say here?

[SilverWolf]

Just an FYI, I will be busy all day and evening and probably won't get back to this until tomorrow.

[SilverWolf]

I wouldn't call what Slandaar and Accountant are doing 'gambitting' Slandaar's tone matches the one I remember from him in another game where he was town, but it's too soon to make it definite but I'm not scumreading him. I took Accountant's response as jokingly roleplaying, which she herself explained.

Can you do me a favor and link this game?

[SilverWolf]

Hi guys, sorry I haven't been around in a couple days. I've been super busy and wasn't feeling well yesterday. I'm going to go through and read up on what I missed and catch up in a little bit here.

Also, my vote is still on Performer for an awkward entrance but the game has moved on quite a bit from that so I'm going to re-evaluate things.

UNVOTE:

For now, while I catch up.

[SilverWolf]

I have my own thoughts on All Alone's vote on Expedience, but before I share them(and share them I will) I'm going to wait for Expedience's reaction to it first. Expedience, what are your thoughts on All Alone's vote on you?

I didn't see that you ever did this. Could you do this please or link me to where you already did?

[SilverWolf]

112 from absta and 114 from Wanderer are pretty good and mirror my own though process on Accountant's behavior towards me early game. She seemed to spend a considerable amount of time trying to cast suspicion on me for my observation of her and Slaandar's behavior early game. She really didn't seem to like my answers per this 91, this 93 and this 95 when you add that to this 89 you would think she would of had a vote on me by now but she's voting Performer. Then she kind of suddenly drops it here 98 which was kind of strange because I don't know what I said that would warrant that. Accountant, perhaps you could give an idea of how you are reading me now?

The further explanation of the Performer vote here 117 is completely different than the reasons given in 89 so I'm not sure why these reasons were not given in the first place? It's almost like she had time to think of a better answer and gave it then.

I'm going to FoS Accountant for this for now because I'm not done going through the game and I want to address other points that have come up with Mario's enterance but I'll get back to this in a bit.

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: Slandaar
1. OMGUS
2. Only player to confirm via PM

or Private Topic???

3. Tied leading wagons, fight!

No. 2 gives me a sense of trying to work things out. A townread.
Also Slandaar attracting attention with his first posts gives me a townread on him.

Mario, please explain this better. Why are you townreading Akarin off of this post? Especially considering you are scumreading Akarin off of this 151 and this 156. How are you reading Akarin now?

Also, you said you townread Performer here 169 and then later said you don't yet have a read on Perfomer 197. Can you explain this inconsistency?

[SilverWolf]

I don't really think Mario's voting Accountant for playing the newb card to be a very valid scumread. Accountant has not, from what I've seen, been playing like she doesn't know what she's doing. Clearly, her response to the RQS was simply to give an example of a game she was in and talk about what happened.

143 is a good observation. Starting to lean town on absta. This is the second time Accountant has better explained herself later while not giving that reasoning in the first place. This pings as scummy to me. Also, 132 basically just sheeps Wanderer's wording here which I don't really like. Mario points that out here which is good 139. FoS is getting stronger on Accountant.

142 looks town from Mario. Although I didn't like his original reasoning for voting Accountant, this kind of play reminds me more of town Mario than scum Mario from the experience I have with him so far. Scum Mario is lurky and plays it safe, where town Mario is very aggressive in his pushes and does tunnel, hyper posts, and doesn't mind drawing attention to himself.

[SilverWolf]

OK, So I lost a post, dammit, I hate when that happens. Shit. OK, I'll try again. LOL

I didn't really like 177 from Expedience because it strongly appears that he is trying to direct the conversation away from subjects he doesn't like and onto subjects he does want discussed. It comes off as very manipulative and his response to All Alone's vote was just to kind of use pretty words to say he's trying to stoke conversation when in reality, he's not really.

That was a mistype. It should be "where town claimed town", which means that since scum would know you played in games where town claimed town, they would be incentivized to claim town to seem town themselves.

I'd say this is a

very

weak argument, since SilverWolf didn't say that she believed this to be a Town tell before Slandaar made his comment. It would require scum to both read the games that she mentioned, and also require SilverWolf noticing and mentioning it. If SilverWolf and Slandaar were both scum, I really don't think they'd be this blatant.

Nevertheless, I don't think Town are any more likely to claim Town during RVS / RQS than scum.

I agree with Expi here.
However, one think I'd like to ask is; why did the vote go onto Performer rather than Expedience?
Is it because Expi's scum and therefore the other was chosen to be wagoned?

Wait, do you mean "why did the vote go onto SilverWolf rather than Expedience?". Otherwise I don't get what you're saying. If you meant SilverWolf, it was because SilverWolf was a more experienced player and hence her judgement would be expected to be better than mine. That was implied in #67.

Why are you answering for Accountant here? This is another attempt to control the flow of conversation and I don't understand why you feel the need to interject yourself so many times into these conversations and defend or answer for others. Another example of this is 88 where you are interjection yourself into the comment I made to Wanderer. I've seen this kind of play from scum before where they kind of soft defend people like this and I do notice you are soft defending Accountant and Wanderer.

I do think you are likely to be scum here. What helps solidifies this for me is this exchange. 181 you say you don't want to vote. Account and Wanderer make these posts 184 and 185 and suddenly you are ready to vote for Mario.

I mean if you were town, you could tell them to go take a flying leap and you'll vote whenever you want for whoever you want. But instead you instantly caved to the pressure and voted-that strikes me as appeasy.

VOTE: Expedience

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: Slandaar
1. OMGUS
2. Only player to confirm via PM

or Private Topic???

3. Tied leading wagons, fight!

No. 2 gives me a sense of trying to work things out. A townread.
Also Slandaar attracting attention with his first posts gives me a townread on him.

Mario, please explain this better. Why are you townreading Akarin off of this post? Especially considering you are scumreading Akarin off of this 151 and this 156. How are you reading Akarin now?

Also, you said you townread Performer here 169 and then later said you don't yet have a read on Perfomer 197. Can you explain this inconsistency?

1. It was an early stage of my reading. I wanted to note a townlean on Akarin at the time. I am now scumleaning on Akarin.
2. I actually completely forgot about Performer I was mostly thinking about Accountant at that time, and wasn't thinking about much else. Not really remembering him, I said I didn't have a read. That is actually a trait in my TvT tunnels. Once I've overlooked the game a bit further, I might unvote

So are you saying that your tunnel on Accountant is a TvT now?

[SilverWolf]

@Akarin: How serious were you in 34?

I was serious for page 2. My vote on Slandaar was a more "real" vote than anyone elses to that point I think (he had OMGUSed a person right after they voted for him, and the confirm via private topic thing isn't crazy IMO) but it wasn't some big serious case either. I have a town read on Slandaar at this point.

Why are you reading him as town? Especially since you didn't like my read on him at the beginning of the game. What happened between that and now to make you think he's town?

[SilverWolf]

Back on topic,

I think Wolfie and Expedience (Expy?) are being silly in thinking of this as some daring gambit. It's a simple joke that plenty of people as either alignment do all the time. "Practically confirmed town" is ridiculous.

It's weird that the gambit language has been repeated so much. And Wolfie looks like she has a lot more experience, it's weird that she'd buy into this kind of logic if she were actually trying to figure out if Slandaar were town or scum.

VOTE: SilverWolf

Here you seem to be taking both myself and Expedience quite seriously. Nowhere did you say you think Expedience was joking. You used the words "daring gambit" and "practically confirmed town", attributed those words to me when Expedience said them, then voted me over it because of my experience which is a shitty reason but w/e.

@Akarin: Why are you voting for Silverwolf while she was actually critisizing the votes on Slandaar and Accountant?

I'm voting Wolfie because her reasoning looks the least real. I think the votes on Slandaar and Accountant over their "gambits" were silly, I'm not disagreeing with Wolfie on that, but the way she reacted to the votes on them, not calling out the votes as based on bad reasoning, but acting like Accountant and Slandaar were clearly town (rather than not particularly scummy) doesn't read like actually trying to figure out alignment. It reads like needing to have reads, and possibly knowing their alignment.

Joking:

VOTE: Accountant

Slandaar is practically confirmed Town, no scum would pull such an obscene gambit.

Does not look like joking:

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

He could do it as scum but it doesn't seem likely right now. The banter between him and Accountant seemed pretty carefree and easygoing. I see nothing scummy there and still don't understand the wagon on either one of them. I've seen town claims in several games and every single time the person has been town. I've also seen the joking scum claims and most times they are town but not always. However, I'm not seeing anything scummy in Accountant's play right now.

This is wrong. I did actually call out those votes as bad. Here 49, here 72 and here 77 are some examples. So you are lying straight up here. Plus, I never said I knew their alignment. I said it was probably not scum. That's a misrep.

I'm also not a fan of Wolfie's post 90, looking up a bunch of random games where town claims town is useless (Accountant's "Plural of anecdote isn't data" comment), not to mention trivially easy for scum to do, but also oddly defensive. Likewise the insistence on first hand accounts only.

Are they games where they did it right away at the beginning of the game and also games you played in as well as saw it first hand like mine were? If you can find that, I'll completely retract my statement all together.

Way too committed to defending this bad read.

I aggressively defend myself as either alignment. This isn't scummy. I already explained this in detail to accountant regarding why I was thinking the way I was and you harping on this one piece of my ISO and ignoring anything else in the game, tells me you are looking for ways to justify a faulty scumread.

This feels like a scum push but I will readily admit I have a tendency to OMGUS people who push scumreads on me as town so I'm going to step back and consider this. Especially since I have a stronger scumread on Accountant and a much stronger one on Expedience.

I have to go for awhile. I'll be back later today or tomorrow.

[SilverWolf]

I'm voting Wolfie because her reasoning looks the least real. I think the votes on Slandaar and Accountant over their "gambits" were silly, I'm not disagreeing with Wolfie on that, but the way she reacted to the votes on them, not calling out the votes as based on bad reasoning, but acting like Accountant and Slandaar were clearly town (rather than not particularly scummy) doesn't read like actually trying to figure out alignment. It reads like needing to have reads, and possibly knowing their alignment.

LOL, no I'm not going to let you get away with this. I said many times it was probably not scum and not scummy. I never acted like they were clearly town. In fact, I said they were NOT towncleared and that my opinion on their alignment is subject to change. I even DID change my mind on Accountant.

So yeah, you didn't really read my ISO and are just making shit up here. Not really liking this.

[SilverWolf]

@Akarin

How does SilverWolf saying "prob not scum" translate to her thinking they are clearly town?

Um, just read the other posts I quoted and Wolfie's other posts in that period. Her read appears much stronger than your 3 out-of-context words imply.

He used those words because that's exactly what I said. It's not out of context as all. YOU are the one saying I'm acting like they are clearly town when I am not.

Slandaar and Accountant are both prob not scum

. I really don't see scum pulling either of those gambits-claiming town like that or claiming scum like that.

Performer. What exactly were you hoping to learn from those particular RQS questions and how would that help you determine anyone's alignment this game?

[SilverWolf]

Bottom line Akarin is your read is crap. It's based on misinterpreting my posts in a way that looks like you are deliberately trying to paint something scummy that isn't.

Akarin, Accountant, Expedience.

Calling it now. Game solved. Thanks for playing everyone. Hope to see you in a future game soon.

[SilverWolf]

Wolfie's catchup posts (207-210) look better to me.
Did you find Mario's logic similar in the town game(s?) you played with him? Did he do things like the inconsistency with his performer read as town? Was he more careful in his logic as scum, or just more lurky?

Yep, he was all over the place and had weird logic as town. I questioned him and scumread him for it in that game. In the scumgame he was lurky and much more careful. However, this is a small sample size so I'm going to be looking at a few more games to make sure my read is correct but he just looks like reckless town to me right now.

But seriously, Wolfie, follow through with your own advice to yourself and step away from the computer when you start to feel that way. It was really hostile and off-putting.

I tend to get aggressive sometimes with people scumreading me. Part of it is just personality and part of it I actually have my reasons for. The reactions to my aggressiveness can help me further read the person doing it. Like, you and Accountant backed off so I'm noting it and seeing if it is because you are town who realized you were wrong about me or scum backing off because you don't want to deal with my push back. I'll just have to watch you for now and see how Accountant's replacement behaves. I am scumreading Expedience and I don't think you'd sheep vote him if you were scum together with him so that's something to consider but only if Expedience is scum. And FWIW, I am really trying hard to tone down my anger/defensiveness from what it has been in other games. It's not really alignment indicative for me but I do realize it's been over the top in the past so I am working on it. There's no reason for me to make the game miserable for anyone.

[SilverWolf]

Of course I made that vote to appease them! Is there anything wrong with this? By voting, I showed that I wasn't afraid of voting for Mario like Accountant and Wanderer implied that I was. There was nothing to be gained from being stubborn and telling them to fuck off, and I imagine you'd call that scummy if I did this anyway.

And what if Accountant and Wanderer were scum trying to get you to vote a mislynch?

This appeasy nature of your vote is extremely scummy. You don't have to tell them to fuck off but being stubborn about your vote there would of looked more town to me than immediately placing the vote when they point out it's weird that you didn't. I mean, why say you don't want to vote and then do it right away because a couple people didn't like that you didn't vote? Appeasement is very scummy. Town doesn't appease. Town doesn't give a shit what they look like for the most part. Scum do.

Also, I've noticed that grayfoxxxx, All Alone, and Performer all have about 6 or 7 posts and none of them say much of anything. It would not surprise me at all, if there were scum in this group. Making yourself unreadable is also scummy.

[SilverWolf]

SilverWolf thinks I'm fishy, since I didn't say I'm asexual.

[SilverWolf]

255 Good posting, I agree.

Hold on here. I have to disagree on appeasement being scummy. It's odd you say that despite Expedience having his reason(s) for voting at that moment.

OK, What was his reason for it?

Here's what he said for why he suspected Mario and why he wasn't voting.

I feel that Mario's aggression is excessive, unwarranted, and anti-Town. He looks very hard to find scummy things, and to some degree he's probably seeing things that aren't there. The repeated stabbing of his quote + quip seems like he's trying to appear very pro-Town by filling up pages and raising his post count, while perhaps saving some of his point for later posts and, uh, not nonuple-posting would actually help more. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this in some ways and it's just an aspect of his playstyle when he replaces in, but it nevertheless makes him lean scum for me. I support the wagon against him.

Don't really feel like voting, I haven't played a game on this site with this many players so I'll wait a bit to see how it works out. I'll remove my RVS vote from Accountant though.

OK, Then Wanderer and Accountant give him shit about this and suddenly.

@Wanderer, @Accountant: Yes, I see what you mean. I was more afraid of breaching some kind of different voting etiquette because there are more scum with capacity to quickhammer. But on day 1 and with this few votes on Mario that wasn't particularly thoughtful of me.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

Now, the fact that he voted for Mario based mostly on playstyle is an issue but if he finds those things scummy w/e, it's D1. The problem I have here is he didn't want to vote. Then caved to pressure. And in the follow-up response gave some strange reasoning regarding quickhammers that quite frankly, I'm not even sure how that applies here.

It's appeasy AND has the appearance of trying to look town. Scum are far more worried about their appearance than town are.

Also, if he thinks Mario is scum, why would he be concerned about quickhammers? Is he perhaps showing us that he knows Mario is town?

[SilverWolf]

Going to do some posting soon.

Analysis incoming

Analysis still formatting

[SilverWolf]

If I didn't want to vote for Mario because I was scum trying not to commit to an opinion, why wouldn't I have just not voted for Mario and left out the whole "unsure to vote" part? That would've made more sense from a scum perspective. But as Town, I actually wanted to know what was the best thing to do (so I could do that best thing) and so I made it clear that I was unsure.

Because you would of been questioned concerning why you laid out all those suspicions you had of Mario and then not followed it up with a vote.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Right now my scumreads are Expedience, Accountant-whoever replaces, and Grayfoxxxx. Grayfoxxxx has made several posts over the past several days saying he will post more and analyze things and contribute. He has not. Nothing in his ISO shows he is even playing this game. He is scum to me until he contributes.

I'll post more later. Gotta go to work.

[SilverWolf]

Expedience

Claim in your next post. Also, give us your reads please.

No one hammer until he does this.

[SilverWolf]

@Silverwolf: Why would Expedience townread Accountant in his position if they are buddies? (281)

Why not?

I also agree with 294 including the reads, observations of the game, etc. so I'm not so sure that Accountant/CDB are scum now. A lot of the issues I had with this slot were things only Accountant can answer for and she's not here so meh.

[SilverWolf]

I hardly conceded, since I wasn't ever particularly unwilling to vote for Mario. I never said that I wanted to wait and see how people react to my support, but I did. I like to hear what people say, and a vote only solidifies my opinions when it's nice to keep my options open.

Well, double checked Expedience ISO just because I want to make sure I didn't miss anything that might make me reconsider this scumread and I found this. So yeah, keeping your options open is scum 101.

@wanderer, I guess a couple things. First, I try not to do pre-flip associations on D1 so these scumreads were all independent of each other. Second, I would think scum would treat their buddy like they would any other player in the game. That's the way I do it anyway.

[SilverWolf]

I've been following along but been at work, on phone, and too busy to post until now. First, Davsto is town. There is just no way in hell scum would start D2 off with a fakeclaim of vig and to claim being blocked and then to to go after grayfoxxxx of all people. I think the early claim and the eagerness in it, thinking he could get us a scum, was very townie. He's pretty much confirmed town in my eyes. This is good because I didn't have his alignment sorted D1 so it's nice to have that settled now.

Regarding why he was blocked, I refuse to believe a town doctor would protect grayfoxxxx. Mafia doctor is rarely seen in Large Normals but I've never seen it in a mini. That doesn't mean it isn't possible, it just doesn't seem likely. A Mafia roleblocker is possible if Davsto left any crumbs about his role, otherwise I'm not so sure that's very likely either. A town jailkeeper on grayfoxxxx is another possibility due to the fact that he was scumread by so many. Then again, CDB suggested he be vigged so I don't know if that was a great play either. grayfoxxxx could be lying about being a VT and actually be BP mafia or something but there's no way to really prove that based on what happened with Davsto's shot. Anyway, at this point, I don't think we are going to be able to get grayfoxxxx's alignment and I'd rather not spend any more time speculating roles or setup as it isn't really helpful for town at this point.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think we are going to be able to get grayfoxxxx's alignment

Again it's VT

I'm not talking about your role. I'm talking about your alignment. I really don't like how you did nothing D1. All this analysis incoming shit from you for days, while never delivering on it is straight up BS. You've made a lot of excuses and basically only posted to defend yourself.

The reason I'm not voting you straight up for this is ongoing shit I can't discuss. But I will vote for you if you have another day where you don't do shit. There's no reason, even if you are phone posting, or even if you don't know what's going on in the game, you can't give your opinions on things.

I can't stand lurkers and anti-town players. I want to lynch them in every game I play. So I expect more from you this day phase.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think we are going to be able to get grayfoxxxx's alignment

Again it's VT

I'm not talking about your role. I'm talking about your alignment.

They aren't related?

Brb, readjusting whole Mafia understanding.

Alignment is quite simple: Mafia or Not Mafia or 3P.

Roles are anything: Doc, vig, cop, etc. etc. etc.

If you are truly a VT, you should of been here in this thread obvtowning the fuck out of yourself trying to draw the NK.

You have one day to prove yourself.

[SilverWolf]

*Not Mafia-should really be town above, just to be clear.

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: Davsto
That hammer was horrible, man.

So why did you think Davsto was scum for this hammer when you stated you intended to hammer Expedience earlier in the game?

UNVOTE:

Ok. Just why didn't you give anyone a chance to respond to Expedience's claim yesterday?

Did you honestly believe that Expedience wouldn't of been lynched if we would of responded to his VT claim?

[SilverWolf]

CDB comes off as the most town in the whole claim exchange and subsequent questioning of grayfoxxxx.

I need to look into wanderer more. She has the most to gain from the death of slaandar. People generally die for a reason so this is worth noting.

I also think someone who has experience playing with slaandar and might consider him a threat would also be a good possibility for scum.

I'll have to meta slaandar and figure it out.

[SilverWolf]

Also if I could "Obv town myself" don't you think that I would do that regardless of role/alignment?

Nope, not necessarily. I don't want to get into the reasons on this right now. If you really want to know what I mean, ask post game and I'll explain it more. I IC In the newbie queue and love explaining shit like this to people and I am always open to that.

[SilverWolf]

Also if I could "Obv town myself" don't you think that I would do that regardless of role/alignment?

Nope, not necessarily. I don't want to get into the reasons on this right now. If you really want to know what I mean, ask post game and I'll explain it more. I IC In the newbie queue and love explaining shit like this to people and I am always open to that.

Ok...I guess...

It's for the best. If I explained how scum/town/VT's/PR's should behave in games right now, I don't think that would help the game and may even be harmful. But if you want to know, I'll explain it to you the best I can any other time.

[SilverWolf]

Hell, I'll get into the WIFOM. Nope, scratch that. Not a good idea. I don't want to give ideas to scum on how to behave with me in the game.

Anyway, grayfoxxxx claiming VT does not make him town. His behavior yesterday was scummy so now he has to do some townie stuff. I'm not telling him how to be townread by me. I'm sure he can figure it out. In the meantime, I'm going to look into other people.

I'd like to take this daypahse slower. We had a good week left D1 and I feel like things were somewhat rushed at the end. Plus, I don't have a ton of confidence in my reads right now since I was so wrong on Expedience.

[SilverWolf]

409 - a VT Mafia??
419 – Wanderer, he mentioned a VT Mafia, which makes no sense

I honestly think grayfoxxxx believes if he claims VT, that means he's town. Like, I think he really believes that and he may actually be town for thinking like this.

Performer-VT Mafia to me=Mafia Goon. Basically scum with no PR.

[SilverWolf]

You know what else I don't like?

Accountant replaced out of this game due to some RL issues but immediately joined another game and is posting regularly in that one starting 3 days after replacing out of this one.

To me, that means I can't townread CDB.

[SilverWolf]

I honestly think grayfoxxxx believes if he claims VT, that means he's town. Like, I think he really believes that and he may actually be town for thinking like this.

Ok sorry I have to ask.

Am I supposed to think I'm NOT town if I'm VT. I mean the role is Vanilla

Townie

.

Grayfoxxxx-How much mafia experience do you have, both here and offsite? I'm not talking about length of time you've been a member but how many games?

[SilverWolf]

Expedience (7) - All Alone,

SilverWolf

, absta101, Akarin,

Slandaar

, ChannelDelibird,

Davsto

MarioManica4 (1)-

Expedience

ChannelDelibird (1) - MarioManiac4

Not Voting (4) - Wanderer-nl, Grayfoxxx, Performer

Struck out those I know are not scum.

So, while it's possible it was an all town wagon, I'm thinking it's got a scum on it.

So at least one of All Alone, absta101, Akarin, CDB are likely scum.

Off-at least one of MM4, Wanderer, Grayfoxxxx, Performer are likely scum.

Most mini's of this size have 3 scum so I'm going with that assumption as of right now.

So I'll be ISOing and meta diving some of these folks and seeing what I can find out.

[SilverWolf]

This is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup. No need to assume, we are certain of this. The rest of this post is kind of duh, so I'm looking forward to what you find. By kind of duh I mean it's pretty obvious this is the case and it looks like you put in work but really you did nothing but copy the vc, crossed out the names of flips and Davsto and yourself, and then make 2 pools of the remaning players. Duh.

First, that kind of organizing things is pretty helpful for me so it isn't duh, it's how I do things. I'm trying to figure out the scum on the wagon and off it. I also said I wasn't done and was going to follow up on this more. I really don't give a fuck if you like it or not. I didn't post it for your enjoyment. I guess I could of kept it to myself but I see no reason not to share things like this in a game where information is key to winning. Since town doesn't have shit and scum does, I'll share whatever I damn well feel like.

Second, where does it say anywhere that this is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup? I've never played in a mini that says what the setup is before hand. Those are open setups. This isn't. How in the hell do you know this? I read the opening posts so it isn't there. Although I did see we only have 12 players where most minis have 13. So how do you know so much? Only scum know what the town v scum set-up is because they know how many scum there are.

If you want to get on someone's case, how about looking in the mirror? WTF have you done to figure this game out so far except bitch about things that have already been said while adding nothing of value yourself?

[SilverWolf]

Nobody claimed to be VT mafia. Silverwolf confused VT with vanilla and thought Grayfox' claim could still mean he was mafia, while really he claimed VANILLA

TOWN

No, I did not. I did not assume grayfoxxxx was town simply because he claimed VT. Just because VT stands for Vanilla Town, does not mean claiming it means you are town which appears to be what Grayfoxxxx is assuming, hence me asking his experience with Mafia.

Grayfoxxxx did ask about VT Mafia in one of his posts which didn't make much sense so I clarified that's basically a Mafia Goon.

[SilverWolf]

Second, where does it say anywhere that this is a 10 vs 3 town vs mafia mod-confirmed setup? I've never played in a mini that says what the setup is before hand. Those are open setups. This isn't. How in the hell do you know this? I read the opening posts so it isn't there. Although I did see we only have 12 players where most minis have 13. So how do you know so much? Only scum know what the town v scum set-up is because they know how many scum there are.

Oh shit I mixed that up with another game. Silverwolf, I'm sorry about that.

Or you tried to fake a townslip. Is the game ongoing or can you link it? Otherwise, I'll go searching myself later today.

[SilverWolf]

SW and wanderer are my top 2 scum picks.

Explain this please. Also, What are your reads on the other players?

I say thay to say-

Telling someone to Obv town themselves is almost comical. It can't be done.

What? You don't know how to look town?

I wish I could talk about ongoing shit. Uhg.................that sucks.

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: Wanderer-nl

[SilverWolf]

Chirst

UNVOTE:

[SilverWolf]

So Mario-What is your read on Wanderer right now?

[SilverWolf]

Ok Jesus don't hammer so I can atleast get my vote reasoning out there. 24 hours tops. Going to try and do it while watching Ravens game if I can.

Give your reasoning on both myself and Wanderer since you have us both as your biggest scumreads right now. And if you have other reads, give them as well.

[SilverWolf]

Town: Davsto, CDB, absta, MM4

Null: Akarin, All Alone

Scum: Wanderer-nl, Grayfoxxxx, Performer

This is where I'm at right now for reads.

[SilverWolf]

Wanderer-You never voted for Expedience, and only mentioned a scumread on him when you stated intent to hammer. Then thought Davsto's hammer was bad when you voted him today. Then said Expedience was probably town for his latest responses before being lynched. I don't have time to ISO you but did you ever express your scumread on Expedience or Davsto before today?

I unvoted because I didn't want an accidental hammer when there is a lot of time left and several people who haven't done shit this day phase including Akarin and Grayfoxxxx. I

pedit-I don't like All Alone either.

[SilverWolf]

I'm fine with a wanderer lynch. Performer's vote looked like a bus vote to me. I don't like that grayfoxxxx took a 3 day V/LA after promising analysis (AGAIN) and failing to follow through (AGAIN). I also am worried about All Alone who is lurking and not posting much.

I'm fine giving Akarin more time to catch up as it'll help me read her better. There's no rush to lynch at this point in the game.

[SilverWolf]

@CDB-Who do you think would benefit most by a slaander NK?

[SilverWolf]

Well, anyone that uses the "go ahead and lynch me" AtE is playing blatantly anti-wincon. I've seen scum do it more than once and I've seen frustrated town do it. The thing is, it doesn't ring as genuine. It seems flat and Wanderer's play this whole game seems flat. That's really the best way I can describe it. She's there but not feeling town at all or even all that interested in the game. Perhaps she's scum not liking being scum or is just having a bad game in general but I really have not had good feelings trying to interact with her or in the way she is inconsistent as hell and doesn't seem to care. I did look into her a little and she seems to be more detail oriented as town than she shows here. And she benefits the most from a slaandar kill. Now, does scum do that on purpose to make someone look guilty? Sure. And that could be happening here. I would not use the slaandar kill as the sole reason to suspect her but slaandar was suspicious of her and he's confirmed town now. The dead are too often ignored in these games. I really don't mind that her and grayfoxxxx are scumreading me. I don't appreciate wanderer saying I'm not trying to figure things out when we have people like grayfoxxxx who are blatantly anti-town and others who haven't said much either.

I will vote for wanderer (just so you guys know what my intentions are) but I would like Akarin to do her input that she mentioned so I can get a better read from her and would like grayfoxxxx's input as well (I'm not holding out much hope for this).

I would hope in the case of Wanderer and grayfoxxxx that they aren't both town because grayfoxxxx is actually hurting town's chances of winning with his play and wanderer giving up is also hurting town if she's town.

I actually would be wiling to lynch grayfoxxxx today if town wanted to go that way. I really don't like that two VT claims are out there plus the vig claim. It could be that one of the VTs is lying but I really don't want anyone else run up to a claim because all this does is help scum at this point. I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

[SilverWolf]

I actually would be wiling to lynch grayfoxxxx today if town wanted to go that way. I really don't like that two VT claims are out there plus the vig claim. It could be that one of the VTs is lying but I really don't want anyone else run up to a claim because all this does is help scum at this point. I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

Vanilla Townie is the most common role in Mafia. You shouldn't be surprised that more than one is in the game.

I'm not.

I actually would be wiling to lynch grayfoxxxx today if town wanted to go that way. I really don't like that two VT claims are out there plus the vig claim. It could be that one of the VTs is lying but I really don't want anyone else run up to a claim because all this does is help scum at this point. I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

Vanilla Townie is the most common role in Mafia. You shouldn't be surprised that more than one is in the game.

Post 511 is about them being suspect rather than surprise. What in the post communicates surprise?

Okay then, you shouldn't find it suspicious that more than one is in the game.

I don't.

But she says about lynching one of the VT claimers just because they claimed VT. I mean, what?

No, CDB explained what I was trying to say much better than I did but I am suspicious of both of them and don't want to run anyone else up to a claim if we don't have to. VT claim is a safe lynch IF they happen to be town. I think at least ONE of them is scum. Maybe both but I don't want yet a 4th claim out there telling scum more about the set-up unless there's like a super obvious scumslip or some shit like that. Again, CDB explained it better than I did.

I actually would be wiling to lynch grayfoxxxx today if town wanted to go that way. I really don't like that two VT claims are out there plus the vig claim. It could be that one of the VTs is lying but I really don't want anyone else run up to a claim because all this does is help scum at this point. I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

for this reason alone

I mean, am I reading this wrong or what?

Yes, but I'll admit I worded it badly. I was in a rush this morning.

[SilverWolf]

Feverish-so probably won't be on much today. FYI

[SilverWolf]

Akarin should replace out at this point. She's been prodded at least twice and promised content days ago. She's done nothing this day phase. I'd like to see more activity from this slot.

If grayfoxxxx doesn't post today and give actual content, I will vote him. If he happens to be town, he's dangerous in a lylo situation. I can link a game, if I can find it, of him fucking up lylo and losing for town. If he's scum, I'm not going to let him lurk his way through the game. I see nothing, not one thing, that looks townie in his ISO.

Wanderer-Main issue I had besides the inconsistencies was that other town games of hers show more involvement and interest in the game, where here she just seems flat and uninterested.

Wanderer-What is your opinion on All Alone?

[SilverWolf]

@Akarin-I see grayfoxx is your #1 scumread per ISO-why have you not voted for him?

[SilverWolf]

Akarin should replace out at this point. She's been prodded at least twice and promised content days ago. She's done nothing this day phase. I'd like to see more activity from this slot.

If grayfoxxxx doesn't post today and give actual content, I will vote him. If he happens to be town, he's dangerous in a lylo situation. I can link a game, if I can find it, of him fucking up lylo and losing for town. If he's scum, I'm not going to let him lurk his way through the game. I see nothing, not one thing, that looks townie in his ISO.

Wanderer-Main issue I had besides the inconsistencies was that other town games of hers show more involvement and interest in the game, where here she just seems flat and uninterested.

Wanderer-What is your opinion on All Alone?

You're saying if he happens to be town and lurks, it's better to sacrifice him earlier? That doesn't sound pro-town. If you can find the link, I'd like to see it. Otherwise if he lurks too heavily, we should simply be able to ask the mod to replace.

Oh FFS, If he's gonna lurk out the game and screw us in lylo, he should die. If he's scum, even more reason for him to die. That's what vigs are for. But if we don't have that, then we take him out. If he replaces, then we don't. I hate town lurkers or town that is anti-town. Call it not pro town if you want, but losing in lylo if he just so happens to be town and scum leaves him alive, is a recipe for a town loss. I mean, as a VT he should be playing obvtown to try to draw the NK but he's not doing shit which really fucking annoys me.

I could be crabby cuz I'm still sick though.

[SilverWolf]

You're saying if he happens to be town and lurks, it's better to sacrifice him earlier? That doesn't sound pro-town. If you can find the link, I'd like to see it. Otherwise if he lurks too heavily, we should simply be able to ask the mod to replace.

Here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1200

He voted town right out of the gate in lylo and town lost.

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: Performer

He reads as scum per ISO. I feel we are most likely to hit scum with this lynch.

[SilverWolf]

Has Performer claimed?

No, and that worries me but I'm leaning against wanderer being scum due to her latest postings and I'm hoping Akarin and grayfoxxxx just get replaced at this point. There could be scum there but it's just impossible to tell. All Alone looks better as well. Outside of this group, everyone else reads as town. So, Performer it is then. At least IMO. I'm open to other ideas.

[SilverWolf]

grrrrrr...................grayfoxxxx is posting elsewhere and hasn't done jack shit here despite promising several times. Fuck that shit.

Contribute or die.

VOTE: grayfoxxxx

[SilverWolf]

@SilverWolf

No, and that worries me but I'm leaning against wanderer being scum due to her latest postings

When you say "leaning against" do you mean Wanderer is less of a scum read or has she become a slight town read? What about her recent play makes you think this?

She's been answering all questions throw at her, been active and engaged, and is trying to scumhunt. My earlier scumread on her was based on slaandar kill which is WIFOM by itself, her inconsistencies which she's addressed, her flat tone and lack of enthusiasm which is less now that she seems to be fighting again, and kind of a gut read based on not liking my interactions with her. She's improved in all aspects. Not enough for a townread but enough where I can reconsider the scumread and go after someone scummier than her now.

It could be that one of the VTs is lying but I really don't want anyone else run up to a claim because all this does is help scum at this point. I'd actually like to lynch one of the VT claims for this reason alone.

Considering you said this earlier, your read on Performer must be pretty strong for you to take this risk and lynch him. But then you say:

So, Performer it is then. At least IMO.

I'm open to other ideas.

It doesn't exactly sound so strong of a read.

I'm open to listening to other cases on other people because A) my confidence dropped after I was so wrong on Expedience and B) I think it's pretty important we lynch scum today. Performer's ISO reads of safe play, lack of scumhunting, and really being UTR. Just look at his latest post. He doesn't really engage the game or others much and is just kind of there. I don't like the idea of another claim if he's town but I feel he's more likely to be scum than Wanderer right now plus there is enough discussion about this from others that I agree with, so I'm fine with taking the chance of another claim getting out in this case as he is likely to be scum.

Grayfoxxxx is doing nothing to help town. I am hoping my vote on him will push him into gear. I have some ongoing on both Performer and Grayfoxxxx I can't discuss.

[SilverWolf]

Town:
Dav
CD
Mario
Aka
All alone
Wanderer
Absta
Performer
SilverWolf
Scum:

In that order.

Empty reads list does nothing for me. Explain each one of these reads.

[SilverWolf]

Yeah no. You can give a reason I am scum that has nothing to do with anything you can't discuss. You used phone posting as an excuse last time. Find a PC or lay out a case. Also, give reasons for every single one of your other reads.

[SilverWolf]

For reasons I cant discuss at this time, SW is scum.

Current game related reasons:
The push on me is bad. The last post was just terrible. It just solidified my scum read. Her posts are lengthy, but it seems like a student trying to meet a word count.

Really? My posts aren't long at all and how is that alignment indicative anyway? What about them is bad in particular? What points am I making do you not like that would make me scum?

That last post is pretty typical of me as town. I've been suspecting you for a long time. This is nothing new.

Why did Wanderer move up on your list when she was scum to you last time?

[SilverWolf]

400 - what is grok?
409 - a VT Mafia??
410 - if someone says "obvtown," they better back that up fast with a good explanation
419 – Wanderer, he mentioned a VT Mafia, which makes no sense

The conversation was clear, and you trying to frame it this way screams scum.

How so? Explain it in detail.

[SilverWolf]

Seeking a Replacement for Akarin who has asked to be replaced.

Ok just read this

Does that mean you're done?

[SilverWolf]

Seeking a Replacement for Akarin who has asked to be replaced.

Ok just read this

Does that mean you're done?

I don't follow

I asked you several questions. I'm not sure how you missed them. You gave no real detail on the reasons for your reads or any opinions on others, etc. I know you are capable of this yet are choosing to be evasive and making excuses. It might as well have just been a random list you plugged some people's names into. This is not town behavior. I'm comfortable with my vote.

[SilverWolf]

Seeking a Replacement for Akarin who has asked to be replaced.

Ok just read this

Does that mean you're done?

[/b]
I don't follow

I asked you several questions. I'm not sure how you missed them. You gave no real detail on the reasons for your reads or any opinions on others, etc. I know you are capable of this yet are choosing to be evasive and making excuses. It might as well have just been a random list you plugged some people's names into. This is not town behavior. I'm comfortable with my vote.

It's obv I meant the bolded portion. But sure, twist my words.

Yeah, and I answered your question. I asked if you were done since you basically said nothing but a bunch of short sentences on each person that say nothing, did not answer any questions, are being extremely evasive, and being deliberately obtuse. You are playing like scum. That's probably because you are scum. I think you need to be lynched.

[SilverWolf]

I don't like Marios read on me but he has been consistent at the least. I also didn't like the wagon that formed on him.

What are you talking about? There's no wagon on him.

Absta is explaining reads, but I don't really agree with them.

Speaking of absta, did you read my 496 ? First you do something pro-town, asking me to put up a vote and scumhunt, that's what I did. I wouldn't be voting if I wasn't ready to name a good candidate. Now you're stating I'm scummy. That's contradictory. Did you even go through my ISO?

@Gray what do you disagree with , in terms of his reads?

@Silv - I'm VT.
-----

This follow-up by Gray isn't sounding too logical to me. Fine with either a Wand/Gray lynch today.
Very curious to hear what the replacement for Ms. County Fair, will have say.
CDB, thoughts?

Why did you claim? Can you sum up your wanderer scum case again?

I doubt you are scum with grayfoxxxx or you two are distancing in case one of you flips soon. Not sure why scum Performer would claim VT because it increases the chance of your lynch. Right now there are 3 VT claims out and 1 PR. No one else claims today.

I'd love to hear from Akarin's replacement before deadline.

[SilverWolf]

I can't speak of ongoing, but I know grayfoxxxx is capable of more than he's shown here, I know he's posting elsewhere, he refuses to answer questions, he's making excuses for empty posts, he's being obtuse, he's being evasive. My vote was to push him so I can feel better about him. I feel worse. That's not good.

His behavior is scummy af.

If he's town VT, he's basically playing against town wincon and throwing the game for town. Especially since we could be in a mylo situation with a town lynch.

I will also add he called me scum because of reasons he can't discuss and that my posts are lengthy. I asked him to elaborate. He didn't. Plus, he didn't vote for me. He called Performer scum by copying one of his posts and never explained further when asked. He noted Akarin is going to be replaced and said nothing about that slot, even though he was asked why. He's still voting wanderer, probably because if that lynch goes through he doesn't care, etc. etc. etc. If you'd like me to go through his ISO and point out why he's scum I will but it's pretty obvious at this point.

Who here thinks Grayfoxxxx is town?

[SilverWolf]

@Wanderer-Are you still scumreading me?

[SilverWolf]

Really Octupus. You don't think Gray or Performer should make it to lylo but you want Wanderer lynched instead, which would likely put us in mylo if she's town. Makes no sense to me. You must really believe she's scum or you are scum with Gray and Performer.

I don't get all this resistance to a Gray lynch. He's awfully eager to lynch Performer. Could be looking for that towncred if Performer is his buddy going down anyway.

Anyway, I'm fine with a Performer lynch as I am scumreading him as well.

Performer-Please give us your reaction to the wagon and your final reads please.

[SilverWolf]

I think I"m just going to ignore you as long as we are both in the game grayfoxxxx and if you are town, I'll consider blacklisting you. I hate playing with players like you if you are town. It frustrates me to no end because I play to win and I'm tired of VI players being left alive to endgame because scum will never kill them, and then fucking over town while I watch helplessly from the dead thread feeling like I wasted my time and effort trying to win. When you are town, you play for your entire team, not just yourself. If you are just going to fuck off and do nothing, replace out.

If you are scum, I have no problem with your play because acting like a VI and pushing my buttons is playing to your wincon.

[SilverWolf]

I said it was likely MyLo if we lynched town. Every single 13 player mini I've played has had 3 scum. There was one where there was 2 scum, a traitor, and a SK. But 3 scum is certainly the most common scenario. There are only 12 players in this game but it's safe to assume there are 3 scum still. 2 town are dead.

So 10 alive now-say town gets lynched, then town dies overnight.

That leaves 8 tomorrow and if 3 are scum, that's 5 town to 3 scum. We mislynch then, we lose. We NL and town dies overnight. Then it's 4 town to 3 scum the next day and Lylo.

This is common sense and anybody playing to town wincon should be figuring these things out.

[SilverWolf]

Grayfoxxxx-I didn't say I don't like you. I said I don't like how you play. I play do win. You do not. That's the difference.

[SilverWolf]

Intent to hammer Performer.

I think we need a lynch.

Any objections?

[SilverWolf]

OK, Let's lynch!!

VOTE: Performer

[SilverWolf]

You guys have no idea how PISSED OFF I was to come into this thread yesterday and find you had lynched Octupus in less than an hour before I even had a fucking chance to speak!!

I had a guilty on Mario but I couldn't fucking tell you guys because you rushed a damn lynch before I could say shit!!

I investigated Davsto N1-Town

Mario N2-Mafia

Wanderer last night-Town

I fully expect to die tonight so I'd like to spend some time figuring out who the last scum is before we lynch Mario but Mario is scum.

[SilverWolf]

I don't believe Grayfoxxxx is scum because Mario tunneled him all day yesterday and is voting him today. All Alone's vote makes me less likely to suspect her.

Who's left:

Davsto-Town Vig

Me-Town Cop

Wanderer-VT and Town

Grayfoxxxx-likely Town, VT

All Alone-could be Town-you should claim today

absta101-probably last mafia-you should also claim today

[SilverWolf]

Also, A lot of my play yesterday was me trying to avoid being too town so I wasn't NK'd. If you are wondering about crumbs here ya go:

From 401

First, Davsto is town.

Also, my Role PM says I get the results in the form of Mafia or Not Mafia but I actually got them as Town or Mafia so I crumbed that here 405:

Alignment is quite simple:

Mafia or Not Mafia

or 3P.

Roles are anything: Doc, vig, cop, etc. etc. etc.

If you are truly a VT, you should of been here in this thread obvtowning the fuck out of yourself trying to draw the NK.

You have one day to prove yourself.

*

Not Mafia-should really be town above

, just to be clear.

[SilverWolf]

All Alone was voting Performer most of the day yesterday and immediately voted Mario today.

I think the last one is absta but his vote on Performer-middle of the wagon, and town play makes me wonder about that some.

He could be bussing however.

There is a small chance it's grayfoxxxx but not real likely.

Anyway, I have to go to work soon. I got on here specifically this early so you guys would have this info. Don't L-1 anyone and let the last two claim. I don't have time to look for associative tells to figure out last scum right now but that should be done by someone.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

This is L-2. I would of waited some on all this but the way you guys turbolynch people I couldn't take a chance.

Also, in future game play, LET EVERYONE SPEAK after a day starts before you lynch o.k?

[SilverWolf]

Seriously, I understand CDB claiming in that scenario but if you would of let me give my results, it would of been obvious that Octupus was the NK because he came into this thread going after Mario some and had Mario as scum in his reads.

Seriously, if you guys would of waited we would of lynched Mario yesterday and discussed jailkeeping the last scum and would of had a fantastic shot of winning because with one scum left alive, and not a lot of players, there's a good chance of jailing the last scum and this could of been even easier than I made it today. Probably would of guarantee'd a town win.

It would of been even better if that happened and I got another investigate off but oh well, what's done is done.

And for the record, Octopus's self hammer pissed me off more than the turbo lynch did. Not that it would of mattered but maybe it would of given me more time to get in here. Who knows?

[SilverWolf]

Can anyone else see SW as scum here?

My fight with you yesterday and my rush hammer on Performer was to look scummy enough that scum wouldn't shoot me. I actually have no intention of blacklisting you.

Just so you know.

[SilverWolf]

VOTE: grayfoxxx
All Alone are you srsly scumclaiming

I have a habit of targeting you at night.

Fun Fact: Last time I was jailkeeper, I jailed him and lynched him the next day when no one died, there was only one scum left, and he was VT and the target of the NK. LOL

Exactly what happened here.

But the reason I investigated him was he was a good partner for Performer.

[SilverWolf]

Finally-Don't L-1 anyone until you are ready to lynch as Mario could just self-hammer.

OK, Now I really gotta get to work. I'm sure I"m dead tonight so..................

Good luck rest of game town!!

[SilverWolf]

I'd say more about Gray and my reaction to him but I can't due to ongoing but the blacklisting comments/arguing was just me trying to be scummy to avoid the NK. That's why I asked Wanderer if she was still scumreading me and rushed that hammer on Performer. Also, why I didn't do much in the way of analysis. It was bad enough CDB was townreading me so strongly. I had to do something.

Mario had Performer as a town read and was defending him quite strong coming into the thread. Performer's scum flip made me change my mind on Mario.

Here's a few Mario posts on Performer: 160 , [post]165, 167, 197, 214.

Yes, I did have Mario as a town read before Performer's flip and I'm sure that's one of the reasons I'm still alive. That and my vote on grayfoxxxx.

Ugh-I keep messing up the link to 165 above and can't fix it so here it is again.

[SilverWolf]

Yeah, That makes sense and goes along with absta's surprise that I would check Mario since I was town reading him.

[SilverWolf]

I'm at work, phone posting, so I don't have time to respond to all the BS absta is going to throw at me now. Just know this. Scum would be throwing the game if they didn't shoot me tonight because my result will solve the game if they let me live. Just lynch Mario and I'll flip town cop and lynch absta next as he is doing exactly what scum would do here in order to stand a chance at all.

[SilverWolf]

LOL You guys are cute. At least we for sure know who the last two scum are.

[SilverWolf]

I'm almost willing to let you lynch me so my town cop flip will show the truth, but that would probably be more antiwincon than investigating tonight would be.

[SilverWolf]

Don't like that SW puts Mario at L-2 and then says don't put him at L-1. Why vote him in the first place, if you are scared of that? So SW is saying absta is the other scum. Going to look at interactions.

Right, I'm a cop with a guilty on Mario. Of course, I'm gonna vote him. I figured with my rant at the beginning of the day, my warning about not putting him at L-1, and after the turbolynch yesterday, town would be smart enough to hold back and if a quickhammer happened, the last scum would give themselves away.

You see, I don't do anything without a purpose. Try thinking outside the box once in awhile.

[SilverWolf]

It also bothers me she says I'm a vt

and

town. VT is a townrole: vanilla

TOWN

but I guess she's doing it on purpose because the entire mix-up always looked awkward and now she is just trying to maintain and I'm sure she knows better.

Of all the things to harp on me about. I already explained this to Grayfoxxxx earlier in the game. Town is alignment. VT is role. Plus, my result on you came back as Town, not VT. So yeah, this is something I'm most likely gonna differentiate here. You see, not everyone who claims VT is actually town so I'm not gonna assume someone is town because they say VT. VT is just what someone claims. It doesn't confirm them as town. What confirms someone is town is the mod saying so, the flip, or a cop inno-although in the case of an GF, that wouldn't even matter. I don't believe you are a GF based on voting patterns and behavior this game, I feel safe with having you as town. Grayfoxxxx too for reasons I've stated. Neither of you is likely to be the last scum. It is either absta or All Alone and I'll get into that soonish here.

[SilverWolf]

LOL You guys are cute. At least we for sure know who the last two scum are.

So you're eiher scum or blacklist worhy then.
That tone is not a town one. It's a condescnding one.
VOTE: SW

This outrage is as fake as your claim.

A 2 shot commuter doesn't fit into a set-up with a JailKeeper because a JK is a kill stopping role just like BP would be or a roleblocker would be which in town's case, is a Jailkeeper.

So no, I wouldn't even waste time talking about Mario's fakeclaim here since he in confirmed scum.

[SilverWolf]

Looking at all the vc's, if I had to choose between absta and all alone, I'd say All Alone is scum because they moved their vote from me to Performer, while I started that wagon. That seems a little weird.

Silverwolf, can you give me your opinion on this please?

I have no idea why a scum!All Alone would take her vote off an easy mislynch-I mean you were under a lot of suspicion-and put it on one of her buddies. That doesn't make sense from a scum perspective.

I will re-ISO her to make sure and absta too but I am leaning absta as last scum based on his reaction to my claim. I mean, he pretty much said I'm scum with Mario and fakeclaimed cop to frame my buddy and somehow I have 3 results, every night I live I'll have to have more (plus, a reason to be alive) and when those people keep flipping town, somehow I'd survive LyLo and win the game. Like, In what Universe does this even make sense as scum play? Then he talks about my scummy play which I already explained was because CDB's hard townread on me was making me nervous about being the NK. Then he says me claiming cop today makes sense instead of tomorrow-hell, I would of claimed it yesterday if given a chance. absta is setting up a 1v1 with me where All Alone calmly explained why absta and mario make sense as a team from a NK analysis standpoint. She was also the second vote on the Performer wagon which is more likely to be town than scum from what I've seen in games. I'm not ruling out bussing, but I don't think that is super highly likely either.

[SilverWolf]

If SW is town, one of the scum is most likely going to be a Godfather or Framer. If that is the case, the scum player can easily let SW live tonight and kill Davsto (unless Mario is that scum). However, all SW has to do is get a guilty on either me or All alone and she will automatically be confirmed town-cop because either one of us got framed or we are indeed scum.

Basically, all we know for sure is that scum-SW will not call a guilty tonight.

A Framer isn't Normal and isn't going to be in this game:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector,

Framer

, Vanillaizer, Beloved Princess, Arsonist, Governor

Second, if there is a GF, I highly doubt it's someone I've already gotten a result on. I would refute the rest of your points on me, but I don't like arguing with likely scum.

I will be investigating one of you or All Alone (who is for me to know, and scum to wonder about) and I will likely die. Town will have to lynch you or All Alone the next day.

Let's see here:

Mario-today's lynch

Davsto-Town

Wanderer-Town

Grayfoxxxx-Town

All Alone-maybe Town

absta-maybe Scum

Me-Town-tonight's NK

Tomorrow 1 scum vs 4 town. Say absta is lynched (hopefully this ends the game) BUT if I'm wrong and he's town, then Davsto dies overnight.

Next day will be Lylo with 1 scum vs 2 town and you lynch All Alone then and Town wins. This is for Grayfoxxxx and Wanderer.

If Grayfoxxxx is scum or Wanderer is GF, then scum wins. I don't see this as likely.

We can spend a little time trying to see if the absta-All Alone order is good or not but otherwise, this is what I suggest town does going forward.

[SilverWolf]

I've said everything I need to say. Good luck Town!!

[SilverWolf]

Hey, I had a guilty on absta today.

[SilverWolf]

Hey, I had a guilty on absta today.

Yeah I read in the dead thread and mod thread. You were awesome!

Thanks, I enjoyed it a lot. It was a fun game.

Thanks Fragger again for the excellent modding game.

I hope to see you guys again in a future game.

[SilverWolf]

I think Mafia really messed up by leaving a confirmed town Davsto alive.

Yeah, I think as scum, I would of killed him N2. I think it's always good to do a little bit of WIFOM with NK's as scum. Because basically they were killing everyone who was suspicious of them and leaving those alive who where not.

This pretty much cleared grayfoxxxx and also made Mario look bad after Performer flip plus failed Octopus NK.

I usually try really hard as scum to give reads on my partners exactly as I would any other player and exactly as I would as town. His townread/defense of Performer was a little off to me as I had her as scummy.

But hey, I still think he did a great job of looking town until the Performer flip.

I was so excited to give my guilty which is why I was soooooo pissed off when the day ended before I could do that.

Looking back on it though, that was really for the best because I could clear Wanderer and also PoE out the rest of the scum.

Thanks for quickly killing absta at the end there guys and not messing around.

[SilverWolf]

Also, absta was very town most of the game. I don't think I ever would of suspected him if I didn't have that guilty on Mario and town clear on Wanderer. Because then I was able to look at voting patterns/NK's and see that grayfoxxxx and All alone were unlikely scum.

As far as being too many PR's for town, I can see that being a complaint if the game was won by PR's set up breaking or something, but here it was just unlucky the way it wall played out. I mean the vig kill didn't go through on grayfoxxxx, octupus was jailed-bad NK choice BTW, and Wanderer-who is a tough mislynch-was town cleared as well. Plus, Davsto who probably would of been mislynched, was a PR and super town by the way he outed. Then, I didn't really have to out my result or myself to save him.

It's not fun being caught by a PR as scum, but tons of fun catching scum as a PR. This makes up for my first newbie where I was town tracker and had a guilty and was shot before I could out it. Major bummer that was.

pedit: Yeah, there's some different ways the Davsto claim could of been handled by scum. I'm pretty sure, even if I didn't have that town result on him, just like CDB who I was already townreading, I would of townread him off the way he claimed.

Town PR's are eager beavers when they think they can catch scum and don't hold back at all. That's a pretty strong towntell in my experience so far.

[SilverWolf]

Indeed, it would of been pretty Aidsy had you been killed after that quick day then flipped as Cop.

I am not lying when I said I would of thrown a fit. LOL

Also, after reading the normal review I actually totally understand why this is balanced. It's because it was 12 players instead of 13. That totally makes sense now.

[SilverWolf]

Yep, Davsto played it very well when he tried to draw the NK by hinting he lied about his shots to keep the kill of CDB. It didn't work but it was a good play. Smart vigs will never say their shots. It's WIFOM for the scum to really not say ANYTHING about what a PR is going to do at night once they have been outed. It's much better to keep them guessing.

[SilverWolf]

@SilverWolf

- I was so thrown off by your claim, so I just panicked and started trying to throw doubt on your claim.

The funny thing is. We were actually planning on killing you, CDB and Davsto but ultimately we were afraid of what would happen in terms of blocks. You'll understand our motivations better when you read the scum QT.

Man, I was actually hoping scum were not even thinking of killing me. LOL

Yeah, it's tough when you know there's a PR that can block you but not who it is. Makes it harder for sure. You just have to go for who you think it is. I usually re-read the thread and see if I can figure out who the PR's are. Sometimes I've been wrong, but sometimes I've done really, really well with that. Sometimes there is absolutely no clue.

Yeah, I already figured you were the last one, but when you threw all that dirt at me, I knew it. Not that I blame you. I'm not sure what else you could have done.

@Frag

Please release the ScumPT.

Thanks!!

[SilverWolf]

Holy crap, They really wanted me dead.

I have to seriously reconsider by PR play. It is just natural for me to play like this as town and seriously, it seems to make scum want to kill me.

Hell, they even thought I might be trying to draw the NK at one point.

WTF? That's actually a misplay on my part.

I'll have to think about this going forward. I survived mostly due to PR's outing themselves before I had to.

[SilverWolf]

Next time you are scum in a game, try giving a similar read to what you just did. Say you checked my games and this is what you found so you think I'm town or scum or whatever based on the game. A detailed read like that on a player makes you look town.