Mini 1723: Town of Helen Day 4

[Vedith]

Shit, I forgot this game was a thing! Time to play ketchup.

As long as we're not putting you out.
Cheers!

[Rob14]

I'm getting pretty confident that I've hit paydirt here.

How much time do we have left? The Rob wagon isn't gaining anything and Titus has been looking scummier to me with recent interactions.

But suddenly, a new contender has emerged...

[SilverWolf]

How much time do we have left? The Rob wagon isn't gaining anything and Titus has been looking scummier to me with recent interactions.

Day 1 Ends in: (expired on 2015-10-21 22:00:00)

I'd still like to hear more from Flubber, Boon, PB, ASP, Heiriama today.

D1 is 3 weeks in this game.

[Rob14]

I'm pretty sure Titus is town now. Stubborn town, but town nonetheless. My original read on SW was based on the strong reaction, but others have now mentioned that it's in her meta to be somewhat hot-headed, so that's more or less back to null for me. I haven't seen anything particularly town there, but the reaction appears to be present in all SW's games (based on other people's knowledge of her meta; I haven't dug there).

[Rob14]

@Mod: Could we get a prod of Flubbernugget and Hieirama?

[Rob14]

It's been like a day...haha. I was obviously RVS'ing
.

FoS: Ansts guy

Your only non-RVS contribution so far has been to FoS someone for requesting more activity from you, with no further reasons why. Contribute something.

[Rob14]

@pistachi0n: Explain with quotes why you're moving off me and onto Titus, please.

[SilverWolf]

I'm pretty sure Titus is town now. Stubborn town, but town nonetheless. My original read on SW was based on the strong reaction, but others have now mentioned that it's in her meta to be somewhat hot-headed, so that's more or less back to null for me. I haven't seen anything particularly town there, but the reaction appears to be present in all SW's games (based on other people's knowledge of her meta; I haven't dug there).

What is it about Titus that strikes you as town?

Show me what I'm missing here please.

What do you think of Ari?

[SilverWolf]

Gonna read back now, as promised.

Preemptive
VOTE: 20x100

What?

I feel like I'm playing a game in the Twilight Zone or something.

We'll see what comes of it, but I see things coming and am totally alright with this vote considering what has and will happen.

This, or Vedith.

Can you please explain this more now? Why these two?

[Rob14]

Starting with the harder of the two, Ari has been somewhat of an enigma to me. I haven't seen much either way from him. He appears to be putting in some effort, but #205 seems like a lot of summarization over analysis in many places. I don't think it looks overtly scummy, but I have a hard time placing a post with that much summary into the town column because it's the type of thing scum can do to look good. So basically, it's one big idk.

By the way, just realized I forgot to answer about my Vedith read. His posts strike me as trying to sort through the Titus v SW situation, not encourage it. Scum doesn't hound on a risky topic like setup spec and insider info when no-one else bites onto it, which no-one did. Carefully considering his existing reads by asking questions. I don't know what here could possibly be interpreted as scummy. My read wasn't incredibly strong at that point, but he's as town as anyone here for me by page 4. Since then, the read has gotten stronger. When the Titus wagon was reaching a standstill momentum-wise, he questioned my rationale for voting that way, and yet kept hammering Titus, even going so far as declaring that he'd found her partner. Scum doesn't make that move, especially when I pull off Titus in favor of P_B and it's obvious the wagon is dying. Why help kill the wagon and then double down on it? Consistent with someone trying to think critically and find scum. Inconsistent with someone who's trying to secure a lynch and survive.

[Rob14]

As for Titus, that's mostly gut, with a healthy side of that realization I had about my bias toward thinking those who post a lot are scummy. I thought about it more, and the "we" "slip-up" is exactly the type of nit-picky thing that comes up simply due to volume of posts. At the end of the day, my gut is saying Titus is town, and I'm going with that for now.

[Hieirama]

I'm alive. Sort of.
Sorry, I'll try to post more often.

I agree that the SilverWolf and Titus argument started getting a bit irrelevant. Whether you see SKs as scum is really just an opinion.

Bout' the Rob and P_B case:
It just looks like Rob is trying to push people into posting more content, which I can see a Town motivation from.
((I disagree with the case itself, though, I read 2 or 3 of P_B's games and I did find out that he just tends to post things like that.))
I don't think effort is the plainly the thing we decide things on, it's really on what they're pushing towards.
Also,

As for the over-effort by Rob13, I don't think it's necessarily alignment-indicative, but his first real post 81 is a lot of summary rather than push. Then what I didn't like was that he FoS'd Titus for the "us" line, asked a great question in 127, but then moved his FoS to Prolapsed_Brain without a real answer from Titus to 127. On the surface it looks like scumhunting but I'm wary that he could be just poking around to build towncred. Regardless, he's more likely town than not based on his effort and probability, so I like my vote on you better.

This was pretty flip-floppy.
"a lot of scummy", "I didn't like", "poking around to build towncred", but then you say he's Town?
As well as,
"I

don't

think it's necessarily

alignment-indicative

" to "he's more likely town than not

based on his effort

and probability"?
That's kind of contradictory. Explain?

[Titus]

@SW, Your recent posting has been better. No leading questions or assuming answers. If we both live long enough, the situation permits, I will show you an effective cross examination. I know I have been hard on you, so I am trying to be just as good showing where you're not fear mongering. You're asking why he's thinking I am town, which is not an emotionally loaded response. Compare with living in the twilight zone comments. I hope that at least helps you see my issue with your earlier posting.

@Rob, While I think Vedith is town (definitely enough to be taken off the table today), the whole shooting down a wagon while being on it is something that makes me have minute reservations. Sitting on a wagon that I don't want to happen is a strategy I have used before as scum. Particularly if I feel that I or someone else will do VCA later.

As for PB or Pistachio, I could do either of those. Boonskiies if we voted there would be a reaction test, but I am not sure how effective it would be given that we just finished a game as partners.

@GL, Where's the attempt to sort SW from you if you think my reasons are stupid? When ika and mollie play in games without me, they can be some of the best scumhunters but by doing things that seem illogical or stupid on the surface (but they really aren't). Insulting one method while providing nothing to support it yourself is discouraging sorting SW. The fact you haven't asked her anything since I brought that up makes me wonder, just what are you doing to sort SW?

@SW, Why do you think the Ari + GL behaviors are similar?

[Titus]

I got ninjaed. Good posting by Hier.

[GuiltyLion]

This was pretty flip-floppy.
"a lot of scummy", "I didn't like", "poking around to build towncred", but then you say he's Town?
As well as,
"I don't think it's necessarily alignment-indicative" to "he's more likely town than not based on his effort and probability"?
That's kind of contradictory. Explain?

It was "a lot of summary", not "a lot of scummy".

At the time of posting that, I didn't think he was town. I didn't think he was scum. He was null for me. The point I was trying to make was that I saw people townreading him and I disagreed, because I don't think a high volume of posts guarantees town alignment and I didn't like the abrupt change of FoS from Titus to PB.

The reason I hedged with the last sentence is because earlier in my post I was responding to Ari, and he had said:

Can someone e expand on the Rob13 votes for me? That slot seems fine to me. By "efforting too much" do you mean they are trying to appear helpful while not doing so in practice? I have to reread them if so because I didn't get that the first time through.

I didn't want it to sound like I was trying to attack Rob (because I wasn't), and I also don't have a vote on him. I was in a weird spot because this quoted portion of the post is half addressed to me and half not. I was expanding on the "efforting too much" line, but trying to restate that I have much greater suspicions on Ari.

You're right that 'more likely town than not' is contradictory, I didn't mean to imply I was townreading him. I really should have said "I have no significant reasons to believe he is more likely to be scum than any other player". Because in a vacuum, the odds are that any given player is more likely to be town than not.

[GuiltyLion]

@GL, Where's the attempt to sort SW from you if you think my reasons are stupid? When ika and mollie play in games without me, they can be some of the best scumhunters but by doing things that seem illogical or stupid on the surface (but they really aren't). Insulting one method while providing nothing to support it yourself is discouraging sorting SW. The fact you haven't asked her anything since I brought that up makes me wonder, just what are you doing to sort SW?

I have not attempted to sort SW yet. I don't think the things you are doing are stupid, I only think your justification for your conclusion is wrong. SW thinks "scum" includes a hypothetical SK, that doesn't mean she is scum in this game. She never accused you of being SK. I'm not insulting the method, just questioning the conclusion you are drawing from using that method. I can read you as town and still think your push doesn't make sense, town makes misguided pushes/cases all the time.

I will get around to sorting her as the game goes on and it would help if you stopped derailing everything she posts and getting her so aggravated that she tunnels/argues with you. As a bystander to the whole argument between the two of you, there's nothing I see in her posts that helps me sort her and there's nothing I want to ask her about yet. She hasn't done anything in this game so far other than get sucked into arguments with you.

[SilverWolf]

Titus-If you get time, and you can do it post game if you want, ISO me and point out where you think I'm posting well and where you think I'm not and what I can do to improve it. I am always open to that. I learn something from ever game I play. I am not open to the way you were approaching me before your recent two posts. That does indeed put me on the defensive, angers me, and makes me play suboptimally. Just look at 188 as an example. I was pushed and scumread early game, harassed by people who turned out to be scum, lost my cool and played like crap. Wake and GM could not tell my alignment at all that game. But later in the game, when everyone backed off and stopped harassing me, I played a lot better and most everyone townread me before TSO killed me.

Last mini I played, I was pretty much a townread of everyone. I was pushed some but not badgered and harassed and put on the defensive constantly and I didn't lose my cool either. I was the cop and helped get one scum lynched, got a guilty on another that not too many people were scumreading, and figured out the third with associative tells and VC's who everyone, including me was townreading. I helped decimate the scumteam in that game.

So you just need to realize this when you push me for shitty reasons, then make condescending and disparaging comments that do nothing but get me riled up for no reason. That is the reason I scumread you because you know me well enough to know that will rile me up and cause drama for pages on end.

I can't see you wanting to continue to keep me in an emotional state where I can't scumhunt or play well if you were town.

If that doesn't explain where I'm coming from, nothing will.

[SilverWolf]

Also, another example of this is in a mini I played with House where he was scum and I was town. He instigated shit with me pretty much all game. It never stopped. He also emotionally manipulated me constantly. To the point, he apologized post game.

So you can see why I don't like this line of attack on me and will scumread people who do it pretty much automatically.

[Titus]

@GL, Why are you acting like the recent posts by SW and I trying to move past the whole debate are nonexistent and that I am attempting to derail her?

I don't like that you're claiming you'll sort SW, when you'll get around to it. Just who have you sorted? Where?

@SW, I don't consider my reasons for scumreading you stupid. Yet, even though I am scumreading you (not as much since you dropped the melodrama hre), having you in an angry state does nothing for me.

For instance, the one game where I subbed in for you as scum, no one could find your buddies through your emotional state. It worked great for us as scum (even though you were still an unavoidable lynch) because no one could find your buddies.

On a more personal level, I have been there which is why I have been trying to dissolve tension and give you room to breathe. Either I correct my read, or finding your buddies becomes a lot easier.

I'm glad about you decimating scum in a game using things I value (particularly the third scum impresses me more) but you don't need to prove your worth to me as town. I consider you my protege (and always will even if you surpass me in skill), which means I know your potential.

Post game or dead chat, I would be glad to go through your ISO to show you which posts are effective and which weren't.

[Titus]

Also, another example of this is in a mini I played with House where he was scum and I was town. He instigated shit with me pretty much all game. It never stopped. He also emotionally manipulated me constantly. To the point, he apologized post game.

So you can see why I don't like this line of attack on me and will scumread people who do it pretty much automatically.

This line of attack? Scumreading you early or what?

[SilverWolf]

Also, another example of this is in a mini I played with House where he was scum and I was town. He instigated shit with me pretty much all game. It never stopped. He also emotionally manipulated me constantly. To the point, he apologized post game.

So you can see why I don't like this line of attack on me and will scumread people who do it pretty much automatically.

This line of attack? Scumreading you early or what?

If someone scumread's me for reasons I can understand or wants to question me or push me, I can deal with that. I get scumread early a lot because I often start out awkward in games as both alignments. I usually don't start games well. I don't know why that is. So early pushes on me are common.

But for him, it was the instigation and emotional manipulation. I mean, we argued a lot that game. He would not leave me alone. He also laid a massive guilt trip on me whenever I started scumreading him for it. He knew all the buttons to push because I'm easy to push like that. Especially by people who know me.

He reached out to me and apologized post game which I have a lot of respect for him for because he doesn't apologize easy.

But your play this game up until recently strongly reminded me of that because I did feel like you were trying to get me upset over and over again even long after I was trying to calm down. I felt like you were acting like he did there. I tend to scumread that behavior automatically because it does nothing for the gamestate and prevents both myself and others from being able to scumhunt, which is optimal for scum.

[Titus]

@SW, I wasn't trying to upset you, as I have shown, it does nothing for me. I don't believe I was instigating you and that I was being awkward in my attempts to have us move on.

I don't like a game state where people cannot scumhunt.

Can you just accept my apology for inadvertently riling you up? We can go back and forth apologizing to each other and accepting but at some point its spam.

Thoughts on GL's latest posting?

[Rob14]

I didn't like the abrupt change.

Just as an FYI, throwing around my vote is very much in my meta. As town, it's my strongest and often only power, and I intend to use it wisely. As scum, I'm aware of my town meta and replicate it. If you look into my games, you'll find this is very much a null tell for me.

[Rob14]

@GL, Where's the attempt to sort SW from you if you think my reasons are stupid? When ika and mollie play in games without me, they can be some of the best scumhunters but by doing things that seem illogical or stupid on the surface (but they really aren't). Insulting one method while providing nothing to support it yourself is discouraging sorting SW. The fact you haven't asked her anything since I brought that up makes me wonder, just what are you doing to sort SW?

I have not attempted to sort SW yet. I don't think the things you are doing are stupid, I only think your justification for your conclusion is wrong. SW thinks "scum" includes a hypothetical SK, that doesn't mean she is scum in this game. She never accused you of being SK. I'm not insulting the method, just questioning the conclusion you are drawing from using that method. I can read you as town and still think your push doesn't make sense, town makes misguided pushes/cases all the time.

I will get around to sorting her as the game goes on and it would help if you stopped derailing everything she posts and getting her so aggravated that she tunnels/argues with you. As a bystander to the whole argument between the two of you, there's nothing I see in her posts that helps me sort her and there's nothing I want to ask her about yet. She hasn't done anything in this game so far other than get sucked into arguments with you.

Everything about this screams town. GL is now my strongest town read.

[Titus]

@Rob13, he was already going to look at your meta. If that was true, shouldn't he have seen it?

You're going to have to walk me through that Rob.