Mini 1723: Town of Helen Day 4


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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:11 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 747, A Simple Plan wrote:
In post 723, Rob14 wrote:@Ari: Please remove the L-1. ASP is very likely to quick-hammer imo. Say that you've placed your vote on Wgrts in spirit or whatever, but please do not leave it at L-1.

Even if you disagree with me, please work with me on this.

Not in your life. There's never a good reason to quick hammer.

JSYK, I'm gonna be away quite a bit this weekend. I might be able to post, I might not. Based on that thought, I'm going to label myself...

V/LA through Sunday


And yeah, I know I'm gonna get shit for it, but based on the amount of time I'll be in the car this weekend, I'll offer a preemptive "screw you" because odds are I'll be too tired for it until I get back.

Before you go, are you sufficiently caught up and do you have any reads/general thoughts to share?
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:20 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

I'll take that as a no.
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

My thoughts on the whole "it's me or you" thing SW is pulling.
I don't like it.
if you can't play together, one should replace out.
We shouldn't be forced to lynch one of you because of this.

My argument for lynching one was because I saw your interactions as scum motivated and antitown.
being essentially forced to make a decision between you two because you simply can't play together makes me feel like this is AtE, possibly scum motivated from SW'S side of things, and forces town's hand on what we all know is more likely to be a Titus lynch right now.

I honestly see it more as SW throwing a selfish temper tantrum like a stubborn 5 year old than SW wanting what is best for the town.
And no, this isn't a personal attack. This is just a comparison to your actions from my perspective.
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:29 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

But fuck it, nobody is here to talk to now.

I'm off to bed. Goodnight.
I hope I can be on this weekend, but I can't promise it.
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:59 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

just got here, catchup coming in a bit
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:05 pm

Post by SilverWolf »

In post 752, Aristophanes wrote:My thoughts on the whole "it's me or you" thing SW is pulling.
I don't like it.
if you can't play together, one should replace out.
We shouldn't be forced to lynch one of you because of this.

My argument for lynching one was because I saw your interactions as scum motivated and antitown.
being essentially forced to make a decision between you two because you simply can't play together makes me feel like this is AtE, possibly scum motivated from SW'S side of things, and forces town's hand on what we all know is more likely to be a Titus lynch right now.

I honestly see it more as SW throwing a selfish temper tantrum like a stubborn 5 year old than SW wanting what is best for the town.
And no, this isn't a personal attack. This is just a comparison to your actions from my perspective.


If you didn't claim miller, I'd think you were scum for the way you handled this whole thing. First you say one of us needs to be lynched so it stops. Now you say my actions are scum motivated and I'm throwning a temper tantrum and acting like a child, a completely unnecessary adding fuel to the fire type of comment.

I am willing to sacrifice myself to prove Titus is scum. It has nothing to do with whether or not I can play with her because we've played together plenty of times with no problems. We are having a problem this time because she is pushing my buttons and manipulating me and there is absolutely no reason for her to do this if she is town.

If it was nothing more than we can't play together, I'd replace out and avoid her in future games. It's not a matter of not liking each other or not being able to play together. It's a matter of what she is using to attack me with. She knows exactly how to manipulate me. I should know. I've been manipulated by scum plenty before.

If she's town, she's hurting town's wincon with this type of play and she should know better.

Why on Earth would Titus act this way if she's town? Perhaps an answer to that will help me figure it out and think about it more clearly.
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:15 pm

Post by Rob14 »

In post 745, Aristophanes wrote:Rob, was my unvote requested so you could sort SW and Titus or because you think 20x100 isn't scummy?


It's because the components of 20x100's wagon makes me believe he's not scum. At the same time, Titus has a beacon of scumminess shining bright at the moment. If Titus is scum, 20x100 almost certainly isn't.

Re Vedith's ISO:

48: Completely my thoughts at the time, and on page 2, you can hardly call it "fueling the fire". The debate had barely started at that point.
89: Frankly, I
still
don't get it. You use the term "scum" differently than many other players apparently do, and your blind assertion that your way is "correct" and everyone else's speech
must
match is the cause of legitimate confusion here.
572: Is in response to a direct question and doesn't do anything to ignite the fires. Seriously? Not even close.

Re: 748: You earlier called someone not voting suspicious because it would avoid VCA, which is fair enough. Now you're calling someone scummy for voting a placeholder? What? Nothing else in this ISO is scummy, aside from the Day 1 avoidance nonsense which I called out at the time, but they later contributed substantially, so it's not like they used that to lurk it out.
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:33 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

My last substantial post was , starting from there:

-ASP enters, mostly straightforward reads but the Hieirama push stands out as Hieirama has been skirting attention up to this point. Hieirama posts in reply but the defense seems weak, like she points out a contradiction in Rob's posting history but doesn't really use it to make a read on his alignment and softly defends herself. ASP comes out looking more town here.
-Big catch up from Aristo. Makes good points about Rob, acknowledges less certainty in his SW read and I like most of - some nuanced points here about the odd confirm post from the hydra - it was an unusual post, although Ari's certainly reading a lot into it. I was scumleaning him early because I thought he was making far too big of a deal about small/trivial things in the early game, but it's becoming a consistent pattern, which indicates it may just be playstyle. Combine that with believable miller crumb and I don't really have any more reason to suspect this slot for now.
-Ah, Rob says pretty much the same thing in . More townpoints for Rob.
- is very weak from Hieirama - did you really get a townread off of P_B from that one tiny post?
-PB arrives(?) but Titus makes a push on Flubbernugget instead. I don't understand this - Titus why didn't you talk to PB while you had the chance?
-pistachi0n makes an amazing point in - let's all remember this, everyone. It'll be important later.
-
I REALLY DO NOT LIKE THE PUSH FOR FLAVOR
- if scum have an ability to 'convert' but it only works for a certain/a few people, this is an easy way to find them person. Flavor doesn't tell you anything about alignment and just felt like BS from wgeurts to me.
-I'm liking the cases/push on PB, he definitely needs to be posting more.

Oh hey, he has questions for me:

In post 589, Prolapsed Brain wrote:I'm curious why you thought one player could read another player's mind to answer why a vote was placed. Also, yes, scum could benefit, slightly I suppose, from looking town so early, but this is just Rob. That's how he plays.

Titus seemed convinced that Rob was town, I was trying to show her that I was not the only one who doubted this conviction. pistachi0n's vote was obviously not an RVS vote, so it's clear she had suspicion on him. I wanted Titus to acknowledge this fact, not literally explain to me what pistachion's reasons were.

-More TvT between Titus and SW. Yawn. Btw Titus I'm leaning town on SW now, I can explain it in detail if you want me to but for now I'll leave it at that.
- from Rob, thank you thank you thank you.
-pistachi0n also calls out the flavor thing. More townpoints for pistachi0n.
-wgeurts senses this suspicion from pistachi0n, and asks the mod a gigantic bolded question that he should have considered well before asking for flavor. This seems like a retroactive attempt to justify his bizarre flavor request.

Then we get to my prodge. Catchup on the rest coming shortly.
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:46 pm

Post by Rob14 »

To those who doubted my GL town read before, I rest my case.
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:14 pm

Post by GuiltyLion »

-So wgeurts' case itself in , I don't think it's telling. Yes, her push on SW was terrible and had a lot of manipulation/made-up motivation for SW's posts. It was a misunderstanding over whether SW was accusing Titus of being SK, and Titus reacted strongly to get reactions. I'm not really a fan of the WIFOM "lynch-me-to-see-I'm-right" follow up post either.
-I need to figure out what to make of PB scumreading wgeurts. independently, I think the two of them are fairly scummy, but I'm not sure I believe in a bus this early. Haven't resolved how I feel about this yet.

In post 661, Prolapsed Brain wrote:I think that GL asking Titus why pistachio voted you was a way to get Titus to do the heavy lifting, and GL to take credit and/or assimilate Titus' read into their own. It's just lazy, and scum are far lazier than town, IME.


Already answered this, but I really just wanted Titus to acknowledge that Rob is not a universal townread and it's entirely reasonable to still be suspicious of him 4 pages in or whenever that was. What do you think of my subsequent developments on my Rob read? In fact, you assigning me a scumread for this but then not bothering to address any of my posts beyond that is pinging me as scum-motivated.

-LOL, PogChamp (my avatar) at . Not alignment-indicative but I actually outwardly laughed at that.
-Boonskiies is just all over the place. You say wgeurts is town but then you later vote on 20x100 with literally no explanation? I've been trying to avoid scumreading this slot because of the implosion and the trust-tell, but you need to try harder.
-Rob makes a fair point about the growing 20x100 wagon and Titus' quick defense of it feels a little off. Why are PB's recent contributions town, Titus?
-Jesus am I the only reading both Titus and SW as town?
- tho... great point. I gotta chew on that one and keep it in mind. I think Titus is still rather sure SW is scum but not 100%, which could explain the inconsistency in attitude towards the slot that Rob called out. But it does look bad.

Still think most of the feud is miscommunication/tunnel vision rather than genuine scum motivation from either party. SW, I think Titus is pushing you so hard because she's convinced herself you're scum.

Updated reads
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roughly descending order, not precisely exact but should essentially reflect my confidence overall. They aren't grouped in explicit tiers but rather benchmarks of how I feel once you get to those names

Most likely town

Rob
pistachi0n
Silver Wolf
Titus

Probably town

Flubbernugget
Vedith
Ari

Not enough yet to think they're town

A Simple Plan
Boonskiies

Scum

Hieirama
wgeurts/hydra
Prolapsed Brain

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain, but I wouldn't mind lynching the hydra today. Just staying off it because it's too early for a lynch.
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:37 pm

Post by Rob14 »

In post 759, GuiltyLion wrote:Just staying off it because it's too early for a lynch.


FYI directed at Ari, this is a good reason to stay off the wagon, even if you disagree with my reasoning why I don't think that lynch should happen at all today. If nothing else, I think it's clear more info can be gained from today. It's foolish to waste 1.5 weeks + when there's info to be had. If we stall, do whatever, but right now the posting is as fast and high quality as it has been all game. It'd be silly to cut that off as some of the turtles are poking their heads out of their shells.
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:53 pm

Post by pistachi0n »

In post 755, SilverWolf wrote:I am willing to sacrifice myself to prove Titus is scum


Why would lynching you prove Titus is scum? Your actions seem TvT.
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:37 pm

Post by Rob14 »

They really don't. They did at one point maybe, but not anymore.
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:31 pm

Post by 20x100 »

Had a busy week but it's the weekend now.

Titus wrote:As for wgeurts's wall, he's doing the very thing he proclaims I am doing. Making strawmen. He turns my posts into something easier to attack than what they are. For instance, he tries to make my legit vote into something easier to attack by trying to bypass the history that SW and I had that fueled the vote. He's also dragging us back to something that's been settled trying to provoke an emotional response to make me easier to discredit.
And ironically I'm now going to accuse you of doing what your accusing me of doing what I'm accusing your doing. Confused? Don't be.
Titus here says I'm turning her vote into something less than it is and ignoring some "history" between SilverWolf and herself. It's all nice and good that she states this but I see to see any example in her post of me doing this. It's easy to discredit someone, but without proof a statement is pretty weak. Titus is a lawyer, she should know this.
Further more I don't like her saying what I'm scum reading off "settled". Everything in the game is evidence, we don't settle things and then forget about them. Way to go trying to blow my case away with actually having to explain why it's wrong.
He also says that I tried to pain anyone who defended SW's innacurate, fear causing statements as her scumbuddy. That's just not true either.

Once again you lack providing evidence to backup your statement. Your point is invalid until you do so.

Also titus, if you're town your reads change. That's not scummy!
I see often that scum just stiffly stick to a set of reads more often than not, and make the narrative fit their reads. Town make their reads fit their reads, changing them as new things come to light.

pistach wrote:Wgeurts mentions in the case that self-meta should never be given any stock, well, yeah, but that's something enough people say that it's null.

Indeed, I'm saying you should completely disregard titus self-meta claims.

PB wrote:This question just comes out of the middle of nowhere, and I could see scum asking this publicly (even though they already know the answer) just to try and look pro-town. There really was nothing else in the post even hinting about flavor (save for the earlier discussion of flavor-claiming). Just reinforces my read.

I as scum harass mods to formulate my fake claims by asking them how they would word certain abilities. If the mod didn't provide fake-claims the chances of the miller claim would be a lot more validated. I was pondering the chances of Aristo having fake-claimed and although using the mod for reads is dodgy I'm town and I'm going to do anything I can within the rules to win.

Also what is up with boon saying I'm town to voting me?

Titus wrote:The wagon on me is full of people (minus SW) who haven't contributed in a week or so.

Just keep passively discrediting the push on you will ya?

Anyone willing to make a wager? First person to vote titus after this post gets my vote if she flips town tomorrow and if she flips scum well that's great so I keep my vote.

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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:32 pm

Post by 20x100 »

Honestly I would support a 1v1 on Titus or SW. Except I'd do it with me and titus as that would give a lot more associatives either way.
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:33 pm

Post by 20x100 »

In post 761, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 755, SilverWolf wrote:I am willing to sacrifice myself to prove Titus is scum


Why would lynching you prove Titus is scum? Your actions seem TvT.

They do?
Willing to explain?
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:36 pm

Post by 20x100 »

GL wrote:-So wgeurts' case itself in 625, I don't think it's telling. Yes, her push on SW was terrible and had a lot of manipulation/made-up motivation for SW's posts. It was a misunderstanding over whether SW was accusing Titus of being SK, and Titus reacted strongly to get reactions. I'm not really a fan of the WIFOM "lynch-me-to-see-I'm-right" follow up post either.

Bullcrap, even now titus says it was a serious vote and is using it against SW. There's no "misunderstanding" at all, the push isn't fully base off scum/SK. There's accusations of fear-mongering and other weird crumpets which are definitely not that. Titus also made clear it wasn't a reaction test so your second point is also false. Also, is scum more likely to do what SW is doing right now or town?
Explain the scum motivation behind it.
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:37 pm

Post by 20x100 »

Also wouldn't you agree that manipulation is scum motivated?
You agree titus used it, so now explain how it's town motivated.
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:34 am

Post by SilverWolf »

I would like no one to put 20x100 to L-1 right now. Boon has a history of hammering L-1's on D1. He's done it many times. So DO NOT put anyone to L-1 right now until a replacement gets in to post and I would like some time to re-read and re-evaluate a few things from a calmer perspective. I'm trying to figure out if the issue here is just that Titus and I both feel so strongly the other is scum, that's it's coloring our ability to deal with each other well right now.

I'm also sick so not sure how much I'll be able to get to today but I need more time in this game and we have plenty of it this dayphase. So I'll repeat:

DO NOT PUT 20x100 OR ANYONE TO L-1 RIGHT NOW AS BOON WILL HAMMER L-1'S WITHOUT WARNING AND ANYONE WHO DOES THAT BEFORE WE ARE READY TO END THE DAY IS CLAIMING SCUM.

20x100 IS L-2 RIGHT NOW. YOU CAN SAY YOU INTEND TO VOTE HERE OR WHATEVER BUT DO WHAT GL DID AND DON'T ACTUALLY DO IT UNTIL WE ARE READY TO LYNCH.
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:36 am

Post by SilverWolf »

GL is town as hell BTW. He and Rob are my strongest townreads by a long shot. I feel pista is town but it's not quite as strong. I'll give reads on the others a little bit later.
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:56 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

I hope to catch up today

On first glance I see flavor being mentioned still and would like to note that flavor hunting is a good way to look like your scumhunting without actually scumhunting
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:58 am

Post by Flubbernugget »

In post 621, Boonskiies wrote:Wg's town.

You're probably scum

And thus begins my catch up
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:43 am

Post by pistachi0n »

In post 765, 20x100 wrote:
In post 761, pistachi0n wrote:
In post 755, SilverWolf wrote:I am willing to sacrifice myself to prove Titus is scum


Why would lynching you prove Titus is scum? Your actions seem TvT.

They do?
Willing to explain?


The real burden of explanation is on Silver Wolf for saying that if she flips down it will automatically prove Titus is scum. That makes no sense. Granted, I'm not 100% sure it's town vs town, but two payers getting in an argument and strongly scumreading each other does not mean they are in opposing factions. I think it is likely town vs town because both of them seem to have very strong convictions about their reads on each other and genuine frustration.
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:05 am

Post by Vedith »

In post 746, Titus wrote:Here's Vedith's ISO. First one, he's playing dumb on the whole SK v scum debate to fuel SW.
Second, he's again just rehashing in 89 to state he doesn't get it and to cause more time there.


SK is still scum, so what's this bollocks that you are going along with again?
I claim scum \o/
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:29 am

Post by Jingle »

VOTE COUNT 1.9

With a skeleton crew, auxiliary functions aboard ship get suspended. A town is different, but not by enough to matter. With that in mind, it's rather fascinating that the entertainment side of things stayed afloat as long as it did. What is not surprising is that the sheriff began deputizing people left and right. Most of the remaining citizens declined. Most of them decided it was too dangerous, that they'd rather ride out the storm. Most of them made the correct decision. The only thing the records show now, is that of the 13 deputized citizens, at least one was directly responsible for the situation. And locked in a room with a killer is a bad place to be.


20x100 (5): Flubbernugget, Titus, pistachi0n, Prolapsed Brain, Boonskiies,
Titus (4): Vedith, 20x100, SilverWolf, Rob13,
Hieirama (1): A Simple Plan,
Prolapsed Brain (1): GuiltyLion,
Rob13 (0):
Aristophanes (0):
Flubbernugget (0):
Boonskiies (0):
SilverWolf (0):
GuiltyLion (0):
Vedith (0):
pistachi0n (0):
A Simple Plan (0):

Not Voting (2): Hieirama, Aristophanes,

With 13 alive, it is 7 to Lynch or No Lynch.

Day 1 Ends in: (expired on 2015-10-21 22:00:00)

Replacing Hieirama.
Last edited by Jingle on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
This is a Parachute.

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