Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Garmr]

But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

At this point, I wasn't sure that he was scum, but I thought his play was off, as he didn't particularly seem to care what happened to town. He was either a super anti-town townie, or scum, but I was undecided.

...I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero.

This. This right here. Yes you also said "maybe after a two-day break I'll feel better" but that's far from "I promise that after my two-day break I will return with decidedly pro-town activity and not continue to pork town in the rear end."

He tried to say that he really was still invested in the game, and that I should have been able to tell that, but then came back and said he didn't care about the game. In no universe does that make sense.

Then there's these, which I think speak for themselves:

I am not at all liking the exchange between melter and garmr. Melter is making valid points, Garmr is making almost unintelligible responses that mostly consist of "NOPE YOUR WroNG LOL". I don't really feel as though melter is misrepresenting what went on with garmr d1, and his responses to melter's points have caused him to officially surpass dier as my top scum read atm. While I didn't have a problem with people voting pistachio per se, I didn't like the quick hammer; yes, there were other people who had declared ITH, which is precisely why you DON'T then hammer the person without saying anything. It was pretty clear that there was a reason that they were waiting to hammer him.
VOTE: garmr

But if you meta every single one of my scum I have never ever fake claimed anything other than vanilla town and I don't plan to often.

Often
OFTEN
GOOD GOD PEOPLE HOW IS HE NOT SCUM

If people look at my scum meta I should be like confirmed town at this point

The fact that you keep pointing out how town your meta is makes me think that you are analyzing the crap out of it and only scum would need to do that.

Does it matter if my scum reads are on the same wagon if I have good reasons to scum read them?

You have not substantiated your scumread of me in the slightest, so I will continue to dispute this.

What about my other reads then?

Just not even going to dispute that, eh?

I don't like how Garmr keeps telling us to meta him. It comes off as "I changed my playstyle look I'm not scum!!one1!!"

It irritates me people would accuse me of doing things a noob scum would do when I have never lost a scum game by town catching me (I had a sk kill me once when he was hunting town due to the fact he needed to keep towns focus on scum since scum had already taking a few hits at that stage.)

There's always a first time, you can't use never having been caught as a reason why you're not scum THIS time.

Now please stop saying I never made a case on you, because I just proved that wrong, so either defend yourself or gtfo.

P-edit: Funny that the one on everyone's scumdar is scumreading me, I think that should make it fairly obvious which side I'm on.

lets see

1- you called me town but now your going back and saying I was null while i was getting policy lynched this is contradicting yourself.


2-the two day break thing I made it clear on my entrance post i was trying, she's squirming here as in reality she knows she fucked up. Also another
misrep here

this like the 5 time she misrepped me.

She's saying that after I came back I continued to not care which obviously isn't the truth. This is a fat lie.

[herrcombs]

@ Lala's 671: Why joke as a means of justifying a premature roleclaim? Isn't the proper time to claim when someone declares intent to hammer? Wagons can fall apart on their own at L-1... So wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible before you claimed?

Now, for your "self-evident" Garmr scumcase... Well, I was going to analyze it point by point (I actually had it all typed up), but I'm not going to defend Garmr because honestly I agree with some of your points. What does bother me though, is that it looks like you are not considering evidence that is contrary to this read that you have decided on (like in 498; there are some real points in Garmr's responses to melter's push, but you don't care to consider them.) A few arguments you make are nitpicky, and I think you're showing serious signs of confirmation bias.

Now, your "case" against Dier does still greatly bother me. I already said in my 662, I read through your ISO. I read it a couple of times actually. Your case on Dier is not substantiated to the extent that I would expect from someone who claims he is "so obvscum." Literally all I can see is your 306, which is both super hedgy and super nitpicky, then you said he'd be a good "compromise lynch" to Garmr in 312, then you picked out a single sentence in his back-and-forth with BBT in 377 and decided it was good enough for a vote. Do you honestly think you have been "pretty clear" about your Dier case?

[Garmr]

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.

This seems like a fake claim to me. One if she was a dr and I claimed bp I expect her to be a bit more suspicious instead of calling me a town policy lynch and I believe she would act differently to my claim.

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

[herrcombs]

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

This is seriously grasping at straws. How are you so sure there aren't any crumbs? And do you think it's necessary for town PRs to crumb their roles? Don't you think it's a terrible idea for a PR to have obvious crumbs, especially for a doc, because they could be easily noticed by scum for an early NK? Do you think it's impossible for scum to fakecrumb PRs?

Like wtf... why even make that argument...

[herrcombs]

@ DWL: Let's talk about something other than the Garmr/Lala thing. What are your thoughts on Dier? I am having a rather difficult time reading him atm.

[Garmr]

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

This is seriously grasping at straws. How are you so sure there aren't any crumbs? And do you think it's necessary for town PRs to crumb their roles? Don't you think it's a terrible idea for a PR to have obvious crumbs, especially for a doc, because they could be easily noticed by scum for an early NK? Do you think it's impossible for scum to fakecrumb PRs?

Like wtf... why even make that argument...

shhh hercombs I made a pretty strong case against her before and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting. I just checked your history and your kinda new to this site. Crumbing on this site is pretty common place.

[herrcombs]

Don't shush me. And I don't know wtf you just said here: "and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting." Could you rephrase it for me?

Please explain to me why crumbing anything about a doctor role, either the role or your target, benefits town more than it benefits scum? Here's my argument -- if you are the doc, crumbing your role in an obvious manner is bound to get you killed at night, defeating the purpose of your role. Crumbing your protection target will just lead mafia to hit someone else, defeating the purpose of your role. Why am I wrong? (For the record, from what I understand, docs can't protect themselves from the NK.)

[Haschel Cedricson]

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

[Meanmelter]

Honestly I'm just getting frustrated at this point, Dier and garmr are so obvscum and no one is doing anything about it, and garmr keeps pushing the same points and beating the same dead horses. we deserve to lose this game if we're going to just let this happen.

Maybe people will take you seriously if you soft-to-hard claim and then 'rage quit.' Then just, leave for two days. Hieirama would be pretty cool with that, and Garmr!

@meanmelter what's the scum motivation for ending the day early when your bound to draw investigation roles ect?

^
That's even assuming I did end the day early as we pretty much already finished up. What were you going to do make another flash wagon? The only question there was was who pista thinks was scum and she made a superficial post indicating who she thought was scum not long before the lynch. So we can get a basic idea already.

You were easily the second most likely to be lynched that day. This easily lets you get by another night. Not to mention, since you are scum, you would know Pista isn't scum so you would have 0 hesitation in lynching him. It's also extremely unjustified due to the fact people still had questions (Yea that's more than one I've addressed this before) and you used the excuse "Lol the day was over

people

were putting intentions to hammer on pista if you actually think that's scummy hammering that's kinda pathetic." as some kind of cope to make it look justified. as I've mentioned before, there was only one

person

claiming any intent to hammer.
Not to mention there is also the scenario that no one could have been lynched that way. But why would scum want one more townie in the game that could realize who the scum players are and vote against them day 2.
And how exactly are we bound to draw investigation roles? I do not understand this.
There was plenty of time left for everyone to realize who the REAL scum player was (You.) And no we were not finished up. We still had some questions left and I think it's safe to assume Pista would have written a more in-depth post on everyone on those 3 days. Not to mention answer the questions he was asked.

Did a quick skim. A Lalendra vote is exactly the sort of thing I can get behind.

Vote: Lalendra

. Wouldn't mind a Hieirama lynch either.

I know it's been two days & you said you were busy trying to get your own game off the ground, but could you please answer my questions I asked you in post #592?
I guess I should put questions more at the top since no one seems to either notice them or people are not fully reading my post.
I am also really dissatisfied that, even though you were(are?) busy with your game, you would only come back with such a small post. I know you said you did a quick skim,

but how can you be so confident in a vote with something like that?

Wait, what. I've been posting.. also:
UNVOTE: Garmr
Not sure about the slot anymore. Makes better cases on Lale than Lale makes on them.

My cases merely fade away,

as if they are unimportant.

Into the dark sky.

PEDIT:

@ Lala's 671: Why joke as a means of justifying a premature roleclaim? Isn't the proper time to claim when someone declares intent to hammer? Wagons can fall apart on their own at L-1... So wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible before you claimed?

Dude the fact Garmr can quickhammer and no one seems to fucking bat an eye already makes being at L-1 time to claim.

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.

This seems like a fake claim to me. One if she was a dr and I claimed bp I expect her to be a bit more suspicious instead of calling me a town policy lynch and I believe she would act differently to my claim.

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

You're the last person in this game who needs to be talking about fake claims kiddo.
Also who would leave 'crumbs' about their PR role lmao that's like an easy d1 Mafia kill... Oh wait unless you're a BP.

[Haschel Cedricson]

@Haschel Cedricson Do you not feel that others who have posted a small amount of reads are also worth voting for? AKA Me and Garmr

You misunderstand me; my problem was not with pistachio's list (Well, I had a problem with it but it wasn't the one I was referring to in the post you quoted); it was with Hieirama saying that the reason pistachio's list was so short was because he didn't want to give null reads, despite the fact that 2/5 of his list was in fact null reads.

I am also really dissatisfied that, even though you were(are?) busy with your game, you would only come back with such a small post. I know you said you did a quick skim, but how can you be so confident in a vote with something like that?

I'm confident enough. I think the tunnelling on Garmr is coming off as desperate, and combined with my earlier suspicions I feel comfortable making a vote.

[Garmr]

Don't shush me. And I don't know wtf you just said here: "and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting." Could you rephrase it for me?

Please explain to me why crumbing anything about a doctor role, either the role or your target, benefits town more than it benefits scum? Here's my argument -- if you are the doc, crumbing your role in an obvious manner is bound to get you killed at night, defeating the purpose of your role. Crumbing your protection target will just lead mafia to hit someone else, defeating the purpose of your role. Why am I wrong? (For the record, from what I understand, docs can't protect themselves from the NK.)

You leave a crumb of who you want to protect if there it can confirm people as town if there's no kills. But be honest do you even believe her claim

[Keyser Söze]

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.

Could be a caught-scum-tactic to out the doctor - but as no one has counter-claimed: UNVOTE: Lalendra

(There are usually a cop and a doctor in mini-games so I am inclined to believe the claim).

[Keyser Söze]

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

They are two different roles. One ACTIVE protective PR and one PASSIVE protective PR - why don't you think we could have both?
Do you believe both claims (with no counter-claims)?

[Garmr]

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.

Could be a caught-scum-tactic to out the doctor - but as no one has counter-claimed: UNVOTE: Lalendra

(There are usually a cop and a doctor in mini-games so I am inclined to believe the claim).

That's bad reasoning to believe a claim like hers especially since she's shown no hunting

[Garmr]

But I guess she would be killed tonight if she is town
UNVOTE: lal

[Lalendra]

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

This is seriously grasping at straws. How are you so sure there aren't any crumbs? And do you think it's necessary for town PRs to crumb their roles? Don't you think it's a terrible idea for a PR to have obvious crumbs, especially for a doc, because they could be easily noticed by scum for an early NK? Do you think it's impossible for scum to fakecrumb PRs?

Like wtf... why even make that argument...

This. I don't like crumbing, because it's as obvious to scum as it is to town.

@ Lala's 671: Why joke as a means of justifying a premature roleclaim? Isn't the proper time to claim when someone declares intent to hammer? Wagons can fall apart on their own at L-1... So wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible before you claimed?

I generally claim at L-1 because frankly, I don't have the time to check in on the game every ten minutes during the week, and it's entirely possible that I could miss ITH and the hammer vote. So, since I was already here and actively posting, and saw that I was at L-1, that seemed to me like the time to claim.

And you're right Herr, going back and reading it's possible that I had confirmation bias with Dier, there was just that one exchange that I really really didn't like and it's possible that he was just being cheeky and I misinterpreted it. I am willing to revisit my read on him.

[herrcombs]

Dude the fact Garmr can quickhammer and no one seems to fucking bat an eye already makes being at L-1 time to claim.

Except I (505, 662) and several other people have batted an eye. And as pointed out by Dier (670), Garmr was already on Lalendra's wagon when she was put to L-1.

Don't shush me. And I don't know wtf you just said here: "and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting." Could you rephrase it for me?

Please explain to me why crumbing anything about a doctor role, either the role or your target, benefits town more than it benefits scum? Here's my argument -- if you are the doc, crumbing your role in an obvious manner is bound to get you killed at night, defeating the purpose of your role. Crumbing your protection target will just lead mafia to hit someone else, defeating the purpose of your role. Why am I wrong? (For the record, from what I understand, docs can't protect themselves from the NK.)

You leave a crumb of who you want to protect if there it can confirm people as town if there's no kills.

But be honest do you even believe her claim

Thanks for ignoring half my post. I don't know if I believe EITHER of your claims. This game is such a mess right now that I need to reread yet again to try to make sense of it all.

Could be a caught-scum-tactic to out the doctor - but as no one has counter-claimed: UNVOTE: Lalendra

By the way, I'm not sure if there's a real doc who isn't Lalendra, that they should cc right now. If Lalendra doesn't die in the night, we pretty much know she's scum, right? Then if there's a real doc, he/she can stay hidden and the role isn't completely worthless.

I generally claim at L-1 because frankly, I don't have the time to check in on the game every ten minutes during the week, and it's entirely possible that I could miss ITH and the hammer vote. So, since I was already here and actively posting, and saw that I was at L-1, that seemed to me like the time to claim.

This makes sense. Thank you.

[mykonian]

Did a quick skim. A Lalendra vote is exactly the sort of thing I can get behind.

Vote: Lalendra

. Wouldn't mind a Hieirama lynch either.

guys

this isn't happening.

[mykonian]

ok. I was going to make a prod dodge post when I saw you actually pushed someone to l-1 and a claim, but I can say this.

Haschel scummily lurked through day 1. Didn't show up day 2. Suddenly gets behind a wagon. I won't lynch anyone but garmr or haschel today. Take your pick.

[Dwlee99]

I don't understand Garmr's "crumb who you protect" thing. It seems kind of odd. Maybe the day after you save someone (like "this person is my number 1 town read") because they can't be scum if they got attacked and healed. But that argument makes no sense. And then this:

But I guess she would be killed tonight if she is town
UNVOTE: lal

It seems like you're setting up for a lynch tomorrow because of WIFOM.

[Garmr]

I don't understand Garmr's "crumb who you protect" thing. It seems kind of odd. Maybe the day after you save someone (like "this person is my number 1 town read") because they can't be scum if they got attacked and healed. But that argument makes no sense. And then this:

But I guess she would be killed tonight if she is town
UNVOTE: lal

It seems like you're setting up for a lynch tomorrow because of WIFOM.

Or its basic common sense on this site. The only way a town doc would live is if they are useless so much it helps scum

[Garmr]

Sigh this is basically a newbie game

[Hieirama]

Prod dodge, I got really fed up with some RL things.
Catching up ASAP

[Lalendra]

I don't understand Garmr's "crumb who you protect" thing. It seems kind of odd. Maybe the day after you save someone (like "this person is my number 1 town read") because they can't be scum if they got attacked and healed. But that argument makes no sense. And then this:

But I guess she would be killed tonight if she is town
UNVOTE: lal

It seems like you're setting up for a lynch tomorrow because of WIFOM.

Or its basic common sense on this site. The only way a town doc would live is if they are useless so much it helps scum

Not necessarily. It's possible scum could keep me alive because they don't want to waste a NK on someone who, it has already been declared, will be lynched the next day. Why not just NK someone else, then wait for everyone in town to immediately turn and point at me and say I must be scum. Gives scum a two-fer AND lets them coast for a day.

While I understand the "if she's still alive she's scum" argument, it's not necessarily valid, and certainly shouldn't have been voiced.

[Dierfire]

So, having a Doctor and a BP in the same game is not impossible, but does seem a bit defensive to me. I'm also suspicious of the frequency with which our wagons are turning up roles.
If Lalendra is Mafia, the claim was probably designed mostly to dodge the lynch, rather than draw a counter, because the same principle that makes Doctor and BP unlikely to show up together makes it a less useful fake claim for drawing a counter.

If I could be certain that only one of the claims is true, I'd still probably want to lynch Lalendra (because Garmr would be reasonably confirmed if she flips Mafia and would not die immediately).
If both claims are true...well, then I'd want to look very carefully at the distribution of votes.
I wouldn't think that there's any way for neither claim to be true unless we're looking at multiple unfriendly factions.
We've plenty of time to think this through. I'm going to read through again over the next two days since I won't be busy.

@Haschel

It seems to me the question is if we think a doctor and a bulletproof townie would both be in the same game.

As you didn't remove your vote, I assume that you think not?

@BBT @Hieirama

You were absent for these events. What do you think of the wagon dynamics (speed, composition)?