Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Game over!

[the_soothsayer]

For now, there are a couple of places where I want to place my vote. Certainly not on Yadtm considering recent posts.

If you've got the time wouldn't mind hearing a quick version of this now before you leave, you can read in detail and elaborate on them later.

[Quilford]

• Votecount 1.6
  
  
  Natural Aristocracy (4)— Megafan1998, Shady, You are dead to me, the_soothsayer
  Dimitri Davidoff (3)— Natural Aristocracy, Greatvalue, Concorde
  Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy (1)— Spider Gwen
  Gumby (1)— Quailford LOL
  Shiba Tatsuya (1)— Gumby
  Spider Gwen (1)— Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy
  Quailford LOL (1)— Dimitri Davidoff
  
  
  Not Voting
  (3)— The Phantom of the Opera, CellPhone, Shiba Tatsuya
  
  It takes 8 to lynch or no lynch.
  
  
  Deadline
  
  
  Deadline hits in (expired on 2015-10-24 08:08:29).
  
  
  Mod notes
  
  
  Please be aware of the rules, especially of those that pertain to activity.
  
  Damn you all for stealing my page tops

[Natural Aristocracy]

Soothsayer:

I've actually gotten a much better handle on Gwen and how they approach the game thanks to my interaction there. As for my tidbits with Dead, I've gotten much less, but I am feeling a spot more confident in my capability to read that slot than before. If you can't come to the same conclusions from out interaction, I'm sorry. Don't substitute your fiction for what actually happened, though.

Given the question towards Gwen that you called out--the purpose of that question was to gauge how much her (gonna just use her since the character is female) votes were intended for pressure vs lynching and how much I could understand her vote to be an indicator of her passion on the read. As it stands, the answer she's given me makes it fairly clear that early votes are not entirely meant to be absolute pushes, but that Gwen prefers to use her vote to suss out responses and info before going all-in.

As for my comments on being intentionally suspect, I'm glad everyone is reading that as scummy instead of possibly town-oriented. It has helped me gauge how you respond to gambits, but also your general play ethos that you'll be putting forth in this game. That was bait. It was always intended as bait. It has worked well to establish what sort of thing people respond to. If my posting that bait means I get lynched, then at least my flip will help the rest of town gauge other players given their response to it.

I apologize for not being a stand-out guy. I'll try to appeal to your sensibilities a bit more in the future. (This is sarcasm and a lie. I do not give a shit if you think I'm not genuinely trying to gauge someone's alignment. I have confidence in what I am doing. If you're town, you should, too. If you're not, this is a good front you're putting up as many of the players in this game have similar sensibilities to what you've put forth.)

I agree that Gumby and Concorde are strong town-reads. I do not know how to feel about Dead, given how awkward a lot of his posts were. I was hoping asking questions would get to the bottom of things but it has not. What bothers me a lot about Dead is that I started to call out his 'true' reasons for going in on Great Value, only to be voted for by him. It's... problematic, to say the least.

I think Dipsy is scummy. I do not think that Dipsy's townread on Gumby is a worthwhile indicator of alignment. I wonder what makes you think Dipsy's read there is town-revealing rather than null altogether. I am curious why your Dipsy analysis doesn't engage with the dialogue that Gwen has been putting on the table. Those are the big things there.

Your reads post is almost entirely this:
PLAYER NAME: Link to something notable in their ISO, you saying if that thing is 'scummy' or 'town'. Personal statement of feelings on that and/or a question that's lost in the reads list and may never be answered.

I've been enamored with cool linked-up reads lists in the past, because it is easy for them to look like they're doing work. People like Titus will spend hours doing fake VCA solely to look like they're putting in the effort. I'm trying to push past just being enamored with effort and instead hit the bricks on the content and ethos to see if it is really coming from a town slot or not. If I seem overly critical, it is because I have to be.

P-EDIT:

Soothsayer:

You don't need to look much further than my first post. I thought Great Value's entry to the game was strong-arming and trying to establish a town voice while striking at another player who was really only guilty of posting first. Dimitri's interaction there had me change my mind on the whole matter, and Great Value has generally stuck to their guns when it's come to pushing the same town-mentality. There's consistency there, which was what I was really hoping to apply pressure to figure out. Great Value's recent content isn't anything memorable for me, but I do feel like the slot should not be lynched today. There are simply better contenders, especially where info is concerned.

Shiba:

I'm pretty sure that I'm being really obvious, myself. Maybe I'm more aware of my ticks/play. I'm even intentionally doing some format things to distance myself from my main, but I don't think it's going to make a lick of difference for anyone with worth-a-shit experience. Also, please do give us who you'd be willing to vote and why. I'm interested in your process.

[Shiba Tatsuya]

For now, there are a couple of places where I want to place my vote. Certainly not on Yadtm considering recent posts.

If you've got the time wouldn't mind hearing a quick version of this now before you leave, you can read in detail and elaborate on them later.

I do have time. However, I don't like both of the leading wagons. I recall Dimitri being a townread, although that might change subject to closer analysis, and given that I have a good guess of Natural A's identity, don't want to vote him either.

I DO want to vote between Quailford (giving me very strong scum vibes) and Megaman (admittedly due to some annoyance of their posting style).

[Shiba Tatsuya]

NA, don't expect me to give you a straight-off townread based on 227. I know that you are capable of posts of such lengths as scum.

To All: I have a townread on NA because I think I know his main, but don't automatically townread 227 based off its length, as he is capable of doing so as scum.

[Natural Aristocracy]

I just wish I had the conviction you do, is all. Makes me curious if you're seeing something you haven't shared (you keep alluding to this, I don't think you ever dropped the bomb on it) or if you're just playing it up.

Maybe I was wrong about NA being town. Hmm. Now this investment doesn't seem so good.

See here where I call out YouAreDeadtoMe and she immediately stumbles into hesitation regarding the read on me and eventually into voting me.
It's like poetry, it's almost Shakespearean.

Shiba:

Haha, do note that I call out scum putting in effort to seem town in that exact post.
And, yeah, I've done that ish as scum and as town as a tactic to garner townreads on my slot.

[Shiba Tatsuya]

That's not necessarily a scum tell. You're going to have to push that argument further and examine motivations if you want to convince me. Stating an observation doesn't do much.

[Shiba Tatsuya]

Ironically, Yadtm identifying as female narrows down her alt possibilities, because they're a minority group. And my previous theory still holds true.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I think scum tried to wagon you, got called out for it, and are searching for easy pickings.

which scum and where? does this apply to all four of your stated scumreads? if not, why didn't you say who?

saying this is meaningless if you don't tie it to a player or players

[the_soothsayer]

@Natural

, few things:

1) I don't know if it's the fact that I think I know who both Gwen and Dead are giving me at least some meta to work off but I'm leaning the opposite way reading your interactions between the two of them. I've got some issues with Gwens posting that I really need to sort out with him when he's online at the same time as me whereas I find Deads reconsideration of her read being wrong on you etc to come across as genuine given that it's your posts around that are that I too had large issues with. I find your point re; the timing of it being a concern given your comment in Post 189 to be very weak.

2) I think/thought that it's fairly obvious that every vote placed at the least in the first half of a day phase is generally to get reactions and strengthen a read, there's little to no gain in lynching that quickly and not using the time to get a better read elsewhere at least. It's only at a point where the game starts to stagnate (Which is something that assists scum a lot), deadline comes up or you're confident in your reads across the board that it becomes more advisable to lynch.

3) Gambiting is silly and unneeded. People that do it should be taken out back and shot.

4) I like that Dipsys strength of town read on Gumby mirrors mine, that said I think it's a stance that's very easy for them to take as scum so it's a ridiculously weak point which is largely why I've got him in null and not as a town read. I don't really have a huge issue with Dipsys stance on "Artificial" in Post 156, I can understand where he's coming from despite not fully agreeing with it; there are things I've done in this game that I'd not normally do as town in an attempt to hide my main and those could easily be read as forced, it's about differentiating the motivation behind it and while it's not great that Dipsy didn't question Gwens read on Dimitri in detail I don't think it's anywhere near a big issue at all and very plausible that it's just coming from a lazy town player.

5) I use my reads lists to get my thoughts and reads down into a nice list that a) Helps me clarify where I should be focusing on which is needed in larges b) For other people to see/know where my heads at and therefore allow them to question my reads which allows me to get a better read on them myself and in turn helps strengthen my reads. Sure lots of my reasoning etc is quite weak at the moment but we're not even 24 hours into the game, it's merely a starting point.

All that said your reaction here actually reads town though I haven't the slightest clue who you are which is odd.

Unvote, Vote: Cell

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsy is scum taking a very surface skim approach looking for things to attack. He's not looking at intent. At all.

if i were not looking at intent i would have been saying things like "anyone who pushes gumby is scum" when in fact i said two specific people were trying to deride gumby's claim to push through a lynch, which is exactly what looking at intent looks like

Totally whitewashing the point that even though this game is full of alts, the "old ways" of scumhunting still apply and are perhaps the purest. Dimitri is not coming off as artificial because he's an alt. He's coming off artificial because he's scum having to fake everything he says and does. There's an extra barrier there, and you notice it in his posting. It doesn't feel natural.

not what you said. what you said is "his posts are artificial. which means he's scum." not "his posts are artificial in this specific scummy way". you said that all artificiality means scumminess

if you'd given this quoted explanation at the time i'd have believed you but you stripped out all the nuance

it's about as likely you failed to communicate that thought properly than you came up with the above afterwards though so i don't really care about this anymore. it's still really lame as a read though but lame reads are p null

Also lol on the thought that everybody pushing Gumby must be scum. It's never that simple, and rarely true. That looks very much like a white knight of Gumby, which is the only thing that really puts a dent in my scum read there.

my calling out the two people voting for gumby is not the same thing as "everybody pushing gumby must be scum", which is why i didn't say the latter

what it looks like when i make a general statement along lines of "everybody doing x thing = alignment telling" - contrast to how i addressed individual posts re: gumby rather than make general statement "people voting gumby are scum"

that's how you know that there could have been people voting gumby in ways i found less scummy. there just weren't

maybe consider my intent next time lol

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Gwen:

That's fair. I am interested in you going a bit more in-depth with where Dipsy is only going with surface reactions rather than intent. I can see where you're coming from in his ISO, but I'd like you to be a bit more specific rather than making a sweeping statement. Of course, I want to see how Dipsy responds, too. Not enough that I'd lend my vote in that direction, though.

could you be on the fence any harder

UNVOTE: gwen
VOTE: aristocracy

[Natural Aristocracy]

I do keep forgetting that this game has just started. Shorter deadline made me think we'd been here at least a few days.

Thanks for the response, Soothsayer. I don't really have much to say other than that it helps me see where you're coming from and all that.

Dipsy:

So... asking for someone to speak more on their read and be specific while saying that my added vote to pressure a response on you seems unnecessary/not in my interests is fence-sitting?

You're a let down.

[Natural Aristocracy]

Honestly, Dipsy, your vote on me here is something I expected when I started giving your slot criticism. It's the perfect way to edge in a vote on a growing town wagon as scum.
I'd be willing to vote for you. Not going to now for a few ~reasons~, but know that you're on the list.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

@Aristocrat: If Dipsy was actually trying to figure out intent, he would have asked me about the artificial statement, not sweep it aside with "alt" and telling me the "old ways" of scumhunting didn't apply.

if i were still trying to figure it out, maybe

not when i already decided i'd figured it out

if i already think i know what your intent was i don't gain anything from asking you what your intent was because you can't objectively review my conclusion

In my case, it had absolutely nothing to do with his miller claim (even though I have my doubts).

you voted right after a miller claim that was transparently protown and made no comment on what seems like a pretty important thing about your scumread's behaviour

seems like a pretty impressive mental feat to divorce something as big as a claim from your read

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsy:

So... asking for someone to speak more on their read and be specific while saying that my added vote to pressure a response on you seems unnecessary/not in my interests is fence-sitting?

You're a let down.

'i think your read has good points but i want to hear more from you'

'i'm interested and dipsy has to say more but i'm not ready to vote for him'

you really couldn't be playing both sides of that harder

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I'd be willing to vote for you. Not going to now for a few ~reasons~, but know that you're on the list.

oh no

[Shiba Tatsuya]

I'm strongly townreading Dipsy, by the by. Gwen, I think your scumread on him is misguided. Do talk to me the next time you're around, and after I've caught up.

[Natural Aristocracy]

I agreed with the read but wanted to see more of Gwen's process.
I wanted to see your response but felt my vote was unnecessary in seeing your response.
I do not see how this is fence-sitting. There are no 'maybes' in that situation.
I did agree with Gwen's read on you. Hearing more on the read was not going to change my mind about that.
I did want to hear your response to that read/those points. Voting you was not something I was going to do in order to rile you into response.

You're picking up what I wrote and misappropriating it as "I am not sold on your read. I want to vote Dipsy but will wait until he responds" which is fence-sitty. That is not what I posted, though.

I don't know if you're doing this because you couldn't make heads or tails of what may be an unclear situation or if you're pushing this narrative to excuse voting for an easy wagon to push.

Regardless, try again.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsys town read on Gumpy is something I agree entirely with him, that said I don't agree with him saying that people pushing Gumpy alone is a scum tell. I do want him to explain his megafan comment

megafan is deliberately using v bad spelling and grammar which is going to endear him to other players about as much as genital warts

town's going to get fed up with not being taken seriously and tone it down before long

scum keeps it going to hide behind

i was tempted to just not say this and wait to see if he kept doing it but i decided i liked it more as an incentive for megafan to just stop already before making it a thing

as well as why his vote went to Gwen over NA.

miller claim feels like biggest thing to have happened today, decided to prioritise a vote which dealt with handling of that

aristocracy is scummiest now though

[the_soothsayer]

Yeah, I'm still not seeing the Dipsy scum read (I'm actually moving more towards him being town than anything, finding his reads and stances very genuine here), fairly obvious that he's posting as he catches up and his vote timing of Aristocracy was the exact series of posting that I had an issue with, I can also see how he'd read the post as "Fencesitting" even though I don't think that was the intention behind it. Want to see if he still feels the same way when he's fully caught up because Aristocracys reaction towards the wagon and interaction with comes across as very genuine.

Town read on Shiro is similarly strengthening.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I agreed with the read but wanted to see more of Gwen's process.
I wanted to see your response but felt my vote was unnecessary in seeing your response.
I do not see how this is fence-sitting. There are no 'maybes' in that situation.
I did agree with Gwen's read on you. Hearing more on the read was not going to change my mind about that.
I did want to hear your response to that read/those points. Voting you was not something I was going to do in order to rile you into response.

You're picking up what I wrote and misappropriating it as "I am not sold on your read. I want to vote Dipsy but will wait until he responds" which is fence-sitty. That is not what I posted, though.

I don't know if you're doing this because you couldn't make heads or tails of what may be an unclear situation or if you're pushing this narrative to excuse voting for an easy wagon to push.

Regardless, try again.

semantics

'yeah good job but i'm not ready to commit' is scum language

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I'm glad the people scum-reading me can't articulate much more than "Oh he is confident there is scum in two people!" and "Seems slimy!"
There's not much I can address there.

In short, give me something to work with.

this is how scum reacts to wagons - 'stop saying why i'm scum if you can't let me argue against it it's not fair'

[Shiba Tatsuya]

That's not necessarily true.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

That's not necessarily true.

nothing is 100%, it's all degrees of which alignment is more likely to do what

scum does that more than town