Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Game over!

[Natural Aristocracy]

If you're not faking, then there's only two possibilities;
This game is bastard or
You are lying.

Since I know I am town AND I know this game is not bastard, I know that you are lying.
I know this game isn't bastard because of

1. Game Name
   - Secret Alt Mafia 2
   
2. Flavor
   - None
   
3. Number of Players
   - 15
   
4. Your Experience
   - Secret Alt Mafia, Mafia in La-La Land, and many Minis
   
5. Current Modding Commitments
   - None
   
6. Reviewers
   - Faraday, chamber
   
7. Reviewers Agreed to FINAL version?
   (Y/N) - Y
   
8. Backup or Co-Mod
   - Equinox
   
9. Backup or Co-Mod's Experience
   - Mini 1665: Papers, Please Mafia, countless others
   
10. Backup or Co-Mod's Commitments
    - Newbie 1644: Come Meet the Mafia
    
11. Is it possible your game has any of the following: cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game? [Yes/No]
    - No

You're lying. I am curious as to why you are lying. That's what bothers me, really.

[Shady]

264 I am well aware of the message Great Value intended to convey. Notice his I said if the post was read according to the rules of grammar. Scum distancing themselves from their own votes subconsciously is a thing that happens. That's the point I was making and that would have been clear if you asked for clarification.

lmao no it doesn't. this is so dumb.

267 Seriously? A catchup on pages 4-9 when you look like you're actively reading and following the game SN? WTF.

how is giving a summation/reads list bad

This Quailford read is a lot of bollocks and looks designed to prime the conclusion Quailford is scummier than Dipsy. Both Quailford and Dipsy have had weak or nonsensical posting. Even here, he undermines his strong townread in Spider Gwen by stating both are scummy but Quilford is scummier.

Dipsy is scumhunting hard and has actual explanations. quailford is just saying crap and making random declarations they're worlds aparat as far as content goes and comparing them is ludicrous

I don't like the suggestion to waste a rolecop on a miller claim. Who knows if there even is a rolecop?

how is suggesting using a rolecop on a confirmable role a waste, how is that a scumtell

274 The white knighting of the NA wagon and NA is terrible.

If all his townreads are pushing the NA wagon, then why not reconsider his position on NA?

If it's because SN believes he has found who NA is, then why doesn't he reconsider that? The whole the wagon is town driven but wrong really wierds me out.

bolded is such a weasel-ass statement

he can believe people voting someone are town and also that the person they are voting is town. those things are not exclusive. he can like the way people post, and think they have an incorrect scumread that they might have got from a legit thought process.

suggesting it as white-knighting implies a higher level of resistance than what he's giving here. while scum can certainly deliberately distance themselvse from a wagon for towncred, he bothered to say he's townreadng most of the people on it. scum want to set people up to take the fall for mislynches. he'd be boxing himself out of doing that. this is crap.

It's also inconsistent with the fact he says town and scum would be driven to NA's wagon. If both town and scum are drawn to voting NA because he's loud, then why is SN confident that the NA wagon is town driven?

rhetorical weaselry. he explained having townreads on dipsy and soothsayer in that same post. dead to me read not explained but clearly evolved over time from a look at iso. why not check to see why he's townreading someone? oh right you're just interested in making a cheap attack

[Shady]

i have never lied in a game of mafia

[Quailford LOL]

Shady just made this game more awesome by 1000x.

[Shady]

Also, your play and pushes have been less than stellar. I don't get why you get to have such poor opinions and thoughts and it doesn't seem like anyone cares.
You really like being derisive and contrarian and muggy and mean and I don't like you get out.

very nice to conclude this after i've made 12 posts btw this isn't defensive at all

[Natural Aristocracy]

So, are you saying your 12 posts aren't enough to judge from?

[Shady]

only an idiot and/or scum would do that as the game was barely more than 24 hours old yet you immediately started clutching pearls about my posting

[Spider Gwen]

I wouldn't really say Natural Aristocracy has been immovable. I get the opposite impression. There's something slimy and smarmy about the way he talks and the language that he uses. This post is particularly bothersome:

Thanks, SpiderGwen. I definitely see what you mean. I was not a huge fan of Dipsy's entrance, myself, as it seemed to sling a bit of mud but not really achieve anything. It felt ephemeral and weightless. I suppose you're more on the money with actual criticism, there.

Do you think Dipsy's off-the-cuff approach and pushing could come from a town slot?
About how long do you want to interact with other players before going with a lynch for the first day?
If you could choose any single wagon to fold into yours on Dipsy, which would you choose and why?


I like that you are pulling this much from the few posts that Dipsy has. I wonder how Dipsy will respond--I was originally curious if your retaliation for him was solely coming from a place of OMGUS frustration and confirmation bias. It seems like you're extrapolating meaningful connections from his posts rather than just conjuring points out of thin air, so that's good.

Actually, you just quoted the post I think proves my point. Aristocrat just agreed with me on Dipsy after I explained my read, and then he did absolutely nothing about it. Zero follow through would probably be a better way to put it. He just sat there and did nothing.

---

Explain how the game is particularly complicated?

The alt mechanic eliminates many of the tools used in reading other players. Shiba's RQS, while misguided, was meant to determine experience, possible setup, and player thought process/mindset. Only the anime question was really random. The rest of those questions point to a player that has no clue what's going on and is doing his absolute best to get a handle on the game early. Ergo, town.

See, this confuses me on the whole "he's new" point you made because, if so, surely he's used to playing with people who he doesn't know..? I'ma stop on this line of reasoning because I think it was late night me talking bollocks to my brain but ya know.

I never said he's new?

[Shady]

Actually, you just quoted the post I think proves my point. Aristocrat just agreed with me on Dipsy after I explained my read, and then he did absolutely nothing about it. Zero follow through would probably be a better way to put it. He just sat there and did nothing.

this is good + perceptive

[Spider Gwen]

Dipsy is scum taking a very surface skim approach looking for things to attack. He's not looking at intent. At all.

if i were not looking at intent i would have been saying things like "anyone who pushes gumby is scum" when in fact i said two specific people were trying to deride gumby's claim to push through a lynch, which is exactly what looking at intent looks like

Riiight. I don't believe that, because just a standard readthrough would have told you why we were both voting Gumby. Saying you were looking at intent is BS.

Totally whitewashing the point that even though this game is full of alts, the "old ways" of scumhunting still apply and are perhaps the purest. Dimitri is not coming off as artificial because he's an alt. He's coming off artificial because he's scum having to fake everything he says and does. There's an extra barrier there, and you notice it in his posting. It doesn't feel natural.

not what you said. what you said is "his posts are artificial. which means he's scum." not "his posts are artificial in this specific scummy way". you said that all artificiality means scumminess

I think you knew full well what I meant. Heck, you talked about the "old ways" of scumhunting, which means you knew in what manner I meant it. And even if you didn't, as town you'd not assume I'm only looking at alt-esque things, and you'd ask me. This was just you jumping on something because it would look good and townish for you to jump on it.

Also lol on the thought that everybody pushing Gumby must be scum. It's never that simple, and rarely true. That looks very much like a white knight of Gumby, which is the only thing that really puts a dent in my scum read there.

my calling out the two people voting for gumby is not the same thing as "everybody pushing gumby must be scum", which is why i didn't say the latter

Yes. You just called everybody scum that was pushing Gumby as scum. Totally not the same thing.

what it looks like when i make a general statement along lines of "everybody doing x thing = alignment telling" - contrast to how i addressed individual posts re: gumby rather than make general statement "people voting gumby are scum"

I don't see how this has any bearing whatsoever in generalized statements. That was you pointing out a policy thing, which didn't need pointing out and was just fluff. Not the same thing. This is a BS point.

maybe consider my intent next time lol

In my case, it had absolutely nothing to do with his miller claim (even though I have my doubts).

you voted right after a miller claim that was transparently protown and made no comment on what seems like a pretty important thing about your scumread's behaviour

And was that why I was scumreading Gumby? Y/N You were supposedly reading before that point, so tell me.

[Spider Gwen]

I think that the best way to handle situations like this is for a rolecop on him, to determine if he is telling the truth.

oh sure i'll get right on that

do you see town rolecops so often that you just assume we have one

what a weird way to sum up a read

I agree that the rolecop thing was weird, but out of a large post, that's the only thing you have to comment on?

---

Reading kinda like Value realised that finding an excuse to scumread me would do him well so he found one, by quoting a post and yelling "CONTRADICTIONS!!!!"

Alright, I'll take the risk and just say it. I'd rather be accusing of "stalling" than modkilled but ya know.

Upon inspection from Cops aligned with the Town, they get a result of "is Mafia".

Yes, it specifies that as being the returned result.
Yes, it specifies Town Cops, and that results given to other roles are genuine.

As for the belatedness of the claim, I was considering just trying to play obvtown and hoping I don't get inspected (because claiming Miller will result in a policy lynch down the line) but I decided that I fucked that up so claiming was the best option.

I'm not very good at playing obvtown unless circumstances allow it.

OMG the contradictions! LOL

VOTE: Gumby

Shitfucking butts, people and their avatars.

I may have slightly mixed up Greatvalue and Quailford. I hope showing you these posts prove it.

Hell yeh I'll vote Quailford lol, I thought it was GreatValue who pulled that crap.
VOTE: Quailford

Normally I'd agree with Concorde that correcting yourself is a towntell, but not in this instance. That would have been the case if Gumby just quickly mentioned it, but this just feels like overkill. This is putting on a show, so no, it's not a towntell.

[Spider Gwen]

Disagreement doesn't indicate a lack of analysis Spider.

Agreed. Lack of analysis indicates lack of analysis.

And don't call me Spider. It reminds me of Black Cat, and that's just creepy.

[Spider Gwen]

gwen posted 'kill it with fire' as the only reaction to the miller claim, which i described in the post i linked as looking like scum deriding a claim in hopes of easy lynch. that's a reason. you can think it's a bad reason but you can't say it's not a reason

Was that why I voted him though?

The orange/bolded above is superscummy. Did you even read it bedore calling it "crap?" LOL I'd wager that you didn't.

Why don't you read it again and pay attention this time.

thinks gumby is scum

invites gumby to reread thing gumby said to 'pay attention' to how it was scummy

you know that thing i said earlier about it being pointless to engage someone you scumread to change your mind on something they did you think is scummy

see how quailford is doing that anyway

this is scum looking busy by having an argument that could not actually be useful as town and try to incriminate what he has identified as a vulnerable player

[Shady]

lovin the epic memes

[Spider Gwen]

I think the Qualiford wagon isn't great. I don't like the combination of names that are on it. I'm still not sure what to think of Qualiford, other than that they aren't a hard-ass.
Quailford wagon makes sense to me, but I don't think that Quailford's play is egregious enough to merit a lynch.

What? You don't think the wagon is great, but it makes sense to you? I mean, I agree with you on not liking the composition of the wagon, but there's an awful lot of double talk here. And again, it feels like you are trying not to take a position.

I'm actually interested in playing up the Shady/Concorde beef because I'm not a huge fan of Shady and I liked Concorde's reads and explanations. I'm interested in them butting heads.

The fu-

Unvote
Vote Aristocrat

[Spider Gwen]

@Shady: I disagree with Concorde about Shiba too, but he does have a point regarding Shiba townreading NA and the entire wagon. You'd think Shiba would have done something by now, but he hasn't.

Also, stop with the gambit. It's not amusing.

[Gumby]

you're panicing because i guiltied you

I wouldn't really say Natural Aristocracy has been immovable. I get the opposite impression. There's something slimy and smarmy about the way he talks and the language that he uses. This post is particularly bothersome:

Thanks, SpiderGwen. I definitely see what you mean. I was not a huge fan of Dipsy's entrance, myself, as it seemed to sling a bit of mud but not really achieve anything. It felt ephemeral and weightless. I suppose you're more on the money with actual criticism, there.

Do you think Dipsy's off-the-cuff approach and pushing could come from a town slot?
About how long do you want to interact with other players before going with a lynch for the first day?
If you could choose any single wagon to fold into yours on Dipsy, which would you choose and why?


I like that you are pulling this much from the few posts that Dipsy has. I wonder how Dipsy will respond--I was originally curious if your retaliation for him was solely coming from a place of OMGUS frustration and confirmation bias. It seems like you're extrapolating meaningful connections from his posts rather than just conjuring points out of thin air, so that's good.

Actually, you just quoted the post I think proves my point. Aristocrat just agreed with me on Dipsy after I explained my read, and then he did absolutely nothing about it. Zero follow through would probably be a better way to put it. He just sat there and did nothing.

---

Explain how the game is particularly complicated?

The alt mechanic eliminates many of the tools used in reading other players. Shiba's RQS, while misguided, was meant to determine experience, possible setup, and player thought process/mindset. Only the anime question was really random. The rest of those questions point to a player that has no clue what's going on and is doing his absolute best to get a handle on the game early. Ergo, town.

See, this confuses me on the whole "he's new" point you made because, if so, surely he's used to playing with people who he doesn't know..? I'ma stop on this line of reasoning because I think it was late night me talking bollocks to my brain but ya know.

I never said he's new?

you're panicing because i guiltied you

I'm gonna agree with this and seriously consider voting NA. I would see town going "you're gambitting, you haven't got an inspection at all" first, rather than this reaction.

Explain how the game is particularly complicated?

The alt mechanic eliminates many of the tools used in reading other players. Shiba's RQS, while misguided, was meant to determine experience, possible setup, and player thought process/mindset. Only the anime question was really random. The rest of those questions point to a player that has no clue what's going on and is doing his absolute best to get a handle on the game early. Ergo, town.

See, this confuses me on the whole "he's new" point you made because, if so, surely he's used to playing with people who he doesn't know..? I'ma stop on this line of reasoning because I think it was late night me talking bollocks to my brain but ya know.

I never said he's new?

Didn't you? Man, I am having a ball with mixing players up this game :/

[Spider Gwen]

It was Deadle.

[Spider Gwen]

Soothsayer, if you're around, I'll be here for another half hour or so. Chat me up.

[Concorde]

Shady, stop being a petulant brat. Faking guilties on town isn't cool. Your rhetoric isn't cool. The OMGUS is a personality tell, not any sort of alignment tell. Daycops and Dayvigs are faked so often, they've lost all effect. You're so wrapped up in your own opinion, that you think people should kiss your feet. I think you're town, but it's weaker because of your attitude and how dismissive you were regarding me.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some substantive replies to get to.

[Megafan1998]

lovin the epic memes

i love mee mees XD

these wall posts r killin me tho

[Concorde]

358 I don't think anyone town motivated calls 191 busiwork. If you squint, maybe buddying. 194 isn't busiwork either as its ok to call out bad votes. I don't see your objection here other than being an asshole.

On 229, ST literally says for people to not townread his townread. He is actively encouraging scumreads and thus lynching his townread.

Yes, alt hunting is scummy. You know precisely a person's weak points and strong points are to manipulate them. Focusing on that rather than scumhunting is scummy.

Calling my points dumb, such as the one on Great Value doesn't invalidate them.

Quilford and Daisy both have content, even if I am scumreading Quilford for his. The comparison is littered through ST's so-called catch up. ST's comparison read there is utter shit.

Using a rolecop on obvious town, if one exists, is pointless. If anyone actually townie seriously doubts Gumby's alignment, sure cop him. I'd rather scum actually be required to stick with and create bullshit early than verifying someone townie is who they claim to be. That's why copping Gumby's scummy.

Oh now we get onto this weasel buzzword crap you're spewing. Most people reconsider their read on a wagon if pushed all by townreads or they reconsider the townreads on the people pushing the wagon. Highlighting this is not "weasely" in any sense of the word. You're not even disagreeing with my assessment either which is my main point of doubt with you.

You're supposing that ST is playing a really short game here. ST, by town reading most of the active voices, us engaging in buddying. Second, if NA is a mislynch (which should be obvious given the lack of obvtown pushing the wagon triggering your guilty claim), ST has no reason to discourage it.

None of my attacks are cheap and weasely. So yes, ST will answer them. No you will not dare have your arrogance or remote possibility of being scum with ST stop me from getting said answers.

You are no better than anyone else. Stop acting like you are Shady.

[Concorde]

I think the Qualiford wagon isn't great. I don't like the combination of names that are on it. I'm still not sure what to think of Qualiford, other than that they aren't a hard-ass.
Quailford wagon makes sense to me, but I don't think that Quailford's play is egregious enough to merit a lynch.

What? You don't think the wagon is great, but it makes sense to you? I mean, I agree with you on not liking the composition of the wagon, but there's an awful lot of double talk here. And again, it feels like you are trying not to take a position.

I'm actually interested in playing up the Shady/Concorde beef because I'm not a huge fan of Shady and I liked Concorde's reads and explanations. I'm interested in them butting heads.

The fu-

Unvote
Vote Aristocrat

You are wrong about the double talk explanation here. He's taking a clear position. Quilford wagon sucks. The people pushing it are making mountains out of molehills. That's not double talk at all.

The butting heads comment, do you seriously tink scum would want to rile up town and be so blantant? Don't think so. Dude's town.

Oh and I will call you SG if that's cool by you.

[Spider Gwen]

I guess I'll catch up with Soothsayer some other time. I'll look over Concorde's posts sometime tomorrow.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Riiight. I don't believe that, because just a standard readthrough would have told you why we were both voting Gumby. Saying you were looking at intent is BS.

i know why you described gumby as scummy. you thought he voted shiba when he should have voted dead. i thought it was pretty uninteresting as a reason and the claim should definitely have got you thinking more than it did because something like that is a much bigger deal for figuring out someone's alignment than one or two posts that you could easily have been misinterpreting.

claims are a huge part of how someone plays. it is easy to be wrong about deciphering intent behind how someone uses their vote. this is basic mafia stuff. your only response as the claim came out was 'kill it with fire' and that definitely wasn't appropriate consideration

I think you knew full well what I meant. Heck, you talked about the "old ways" of scumhunting, which means you knew in what manner I meant it.

And even if you didn't, as town you'd not assume I'm only looking at alt-esque things, and you'd ask me. This was just you jumping on something because it would look good and townish for you to jump on it.

take responsibility for the words you wrote. the fact that you wrote a blanket statement made it look like you were not considering the nuance of a secret alt game. you phrased it in the simplest way possible.

as town i'd do whatever the fuck i like, including not asking you about something that looked cut and dried based on the wording

my calling out the two people voting for gumby is not the same thing as "everybody pushing gumby must be scum", which is why i didn't say the latter

Yes. You just called everybody scum that was pushing Gumby as scum. Totally not the same thing.

yes you idiot the difference is subtle but important

what it looks like when i make a general statement along lines of "everybody doing x thing = alignment telling" - contrast to how i addressed individual posts re: gumby rather than make general statement "people voting gumby are scum"

I don't see how this has any bearing whatsoever in generalized statements. That was you pointing out a policy thing, which didn't need pointing out and was just fluff. Not the same thing. This is a BS point.

"everyone voting for gumby is scum" is a policy thing, stop being dense. general, policy, functionally the same. but i didn't do that. i pointed out specific posts and said why i thought those posts were indicative of scum