Mini 1717 Alfred Hitchcock UPick [GAME OVER]

[Thor665]

don't be angry with me, i was hoping you could go more in-depth :[

Then ask for that - not what you did.

more specifically, why is Hecatia's post scum 101 for coasting (and is farside & davesto scum for doing the exact same things?)

Scum try to coast on claims.
She is amping up the uselessness of her claim while not scumhunting.
That is coasting.
Both Dav and Farside are at least in here making a read's trail that we can look back on - she isn't. Ergo; she is scum coasting on her claim.

and where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

I am openly on record as not understanding nor trying to read her emotions.
That said - I do understand that she has said faking them, as scum, is exhausting.
She is clearly trying to avoid having to give active purpose to the thread - that precludes scumhunting of her and precludes emotion tells on her, and would make sense from a Sakura scum.

I will reverse challenge you with this - how often does Sakura drop a lot of town tells and then lurk out the game for a phase or more?
I don't have that in my meta understanding of her.
Do you?

[Davsto]

where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

To be fair AtE is basically Sakura's shtick.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum try to coast on claims.
She is amping up the uselessness of her claim while not scumhunting.
That is coasting.
Both Dav and Farside are at least in here making a read's trail that we can look back on - she isn't. Ergo; she is scum coasting on her claim.

I agree that scum try to coast on claims, but I'm also of the opinion that scum try to disguise coasting when it's happening in that they are far more likely to pop in with surface-level garbage every few days as opposed to just announcing that they aren't doing anything and they don't understand anything; the latter is far more likely to draw immediate attention than the former. I do think that the claim is far more likely to be coming from town than not. Do you disagree with either of these points?

I am openly on record as not understanding nor trying to read her emotions.
That said - I do understand that she has said faking them, as scum, is exhausting.
She is clearly trying to avoid having to give active purpose to the thread - that precludes scumhunting of her and precludes emotion tells on her, and would make sense from a Sakura scum.

OK.

I will reverse challenge you with this - how often does Sakura drop a lot of town tells and then lurk out the game for a phase or more?
I don't have that in my meta understanding of her.
Do you?

Lurking is unusual from her as either alignment.
I see your point re: Sakura having more motivation to lurk out and disappear as scum than she does as town and I agree that the reasons she's lurking out don't really make sense. Would be interested in hearing from notscience at this point, and would be interested in hearing why Sakura needs a useful role in order to post in the game.

[Nachomamma8]

I can't really talk too much about my side of the story because the references that best apply to the current situation lie in ongoing games, so challenge denied.

[Nachomamma8]

where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

To be fair AtE is basically Sakura's shtick.

True?

[Cataphant]

How should townies respond to being discredited by a townread?

Did you feel it was discrediting? You have the benefit of reading it after it happened, so I'm curious of your answer.

Why is this difference significant?

I just reread Cataphant since it was short, and while I see some things I like and can agree with, the one thing I'm unsure about from today is about the Thor / Pistachi0n connection. It seems like Cataphant has a somewhat-decent case against Thor, and that Pistachi0n is guilty solely by association to Thor. But it reads like Cataphant is completely ignoring the possibility that Thor could just be white-knighting a town Pistachi0n. Basically -- when I read Cataphant's posts, I expect them to be voting for Thor based on their posts, but they continue to push Pistachi0n, which makes no sense to me. I'm also not crazy about their reluctance to adjust their read on farside, but that could be adding in some personal bias and might not be indicative of anything.

Vedith's entry into the game contained some back-biting remarks that made it seem like he wasn't reading the game very carefully, and honestly I find this town. Scum who have had to be prodded twice to come back to the game would read arguments more closely, I would think. His logic in 434 feels very towny to me as well. I liked his attempts to figure out the game on D1 and would like for him to pick that back up more today, but I'm OK with feeling townish about him.

And there's no innocent on me. There's a "not guilty, not yet anyways." So don't let that stop you -- bring it, bro.

Hmmm...you honestly might be right. I'm pretty damn sure thor is scum in this game. I just kinda lumped my scumread of pistachio in there with him. That would be confirmation bias on my part, sorry.

can we please lynch pistachio now

Talk to Thor he thinks Pist is town for some reason.

i know. he's been sticking his neck out super far to save pistachio and it's weird AF.

So down. BTW, ETL is towning the fuck out. Same with farside.

I laid down what I dislike about thor, and if you guys vote him with me, we can get him. Otherwise, lets get pistachio. Both are solid wagons.

Farside is also probably back to a scum lean - reading that last comment is just skeevy.

You can't possibly think you aren't white knighting, can you?

[Cataphant]

@"dodging my reasoning" from thor

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
Tht doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

HE FLIPPED TOWN. YOU WERE WRONG.

Nothing you said to my point fixed you in my mind. Thats why I didn't reply. Sorry.

Let's lynch the viking or the nut, please.

[Nachomamma8]

Look - I actually already disproved LC's claim that he could be "confirmed".I literally disproved it.The only question now is whether you think he would make that mistake as town or be trying to pass through a load of hogwash as scum.To my mind, that's the only debate point about the clearing (since apparently everyone is buying into the no roleblock/delay/CA is scum issues with the plan) as I'm apparently the only one seeing the otherwise massive holes in the plan even if everything worked the way LC implied, which it pretty clearly doesn't.CA's defense towards Wingback is reading really nitpicky while not picking nits that are actually disproving some of her issues, which is weird and not happy making.That said, i am actually okay with the Pistach push, even though I don't understand the case there, but I'm supportive of the LC push.@Ank - why do you think LC is worth letting live for 2-3 day phases to see if they have an ability? Seriously, like, what's even the point of that? That doesn't seem like a reason to not lynch them today - could you explain why you don't want to lynch them today but would be okay with potentially lynching them later? Because it *sounds* like you're saying that you don't really suspect them, but kinda suspect them - except your phrasing it within the claim buisness, which theoretically should have nothing to do with it as they haven't claimed gak all.

^ posts like this? Using fear tactics to get them lynched. Other folks had reasonable stances like "we'll get them if they can't confirm themselves", and you went gung ho the whole time. Saying you "confirmed" they can't prove it.

A town player would see this and react to give them a chance. A scum player who's buddy is the alternative would go gung ho for the original one. Good play in the moment, but it got you caught.

Lets fucking lynch pistachio, please. I don't normally stick my head out like this.

@dav, I just want to know your thoughts on what I'm saying. You're a rational dude.

You posted this.
People refuted this.
You never defended it.

[Nachomamma8]

@"dodging my reasoning" from thor

How does Wingback flipping town make what I say look more like BS than it already did or didn't?
Tht doesn't appear to make any sense at all.

HE FLIPPED TOWN. YOU WERE WRONG.

Nothing you said to my point fixed you in my mind. Thats why I didn't reply. Sorry.

Let's lynch the viking or the nut, please.

Thor didn't call Wingback scum.

[Nachomamma8]

If what you were trying to say is "LC flipped town thus Thor was just talking a bunch of bullshit" see: Wingback flip.

[Nachomamma8]

You can't possibly think you aren't white knighting, can you?

What?

[Cataphant]

bad double negative but the meaning is mostly clear.

I don't see how he doesn't see his white knighting.

Hm. I must have missed that. Lets see

I did confirm that - and even if you think i didn't how is that a fear tactic?

Fear tactic = "we will have a no lynch if you don't compromise based on this information I have"

I don't?

I do think massive is town. Very strong difference of opinion, I guess.

anything else? He's scum. If I can, we will lynch him today; if not lets just lynch pistachio.

[Cataphant]

honestly pistachios recent posting is better, but not above coaching.

[Cataphant]

does it not bother you that thor essentially ignores pistachio until he's called on it, nacho?

[Cataphant]

I guess what I need to figure out is whether thor is scum defending scummy-but-town pistachio

or if this is coaching. It's one of them.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see how he doesn't see his white knighting.

I don't see it either.
Thor's assessment of his defense seems pretty solidly accurate.

[Nachomamma8]

Fear tactic = "we will have a no lynch if you don't compromise based on this information I have"

What?

[Nachomamma8]

When did that happen?

[Nachomamma8]

does it not bother you that thor essentially ignores pistachio until he's called on it, nacho?

It seems like Thor initially townread Pistach for reasons I don't remember. Then he was lukewarm on the lot. Then he pushed a scumread over a lukewarm read. And then Pistach wagon rose up because it was the LC wagon was Pistach's fault and because Pistach wasn't scumhunting and then Thor argued against both of these points.

I don't view this as an unreasonable partner interaction but I also don't think it looks particularly bad regardless of Pistach's alignment.

[massive]

What is her angle here if scum?
What you're implying in hunting for a contradiction here is that she's lying, and thus scum - but why would farside lie as scum about past experience with me?

Her angle here as scum is to avoid interaction with you specifically to avoid you getting a good read, or to leave you open as a possible mislynch down the road, or to prevent any scum-scum connection from forming if you're both scum. Honestly, there's plenty of possible angles here, and it's not "lying about past experience" that concerns me, it's whether or not she really has no read on you in THIS game. I guess what I'm saying is, even if you're playing the game of your life as scum, or are being a great townie, wouldn't you expect everyone in this game to have SOME sort of feeling about your alignment?

Can you talk about this more?
What are Cataphant's good points against Thor?

"Somewhat-decent" may be a bad choice of words, since what is interesting to me about it is not its quality, but its proximity to the Pistachi0n read which he is willing to act on, but seems less well-formed than his Thor read.

[Thor665]

I agree that scum try to coast on claims, but I'm also of the opinion that scum try to disguise coasting when it's happening in that they are far more likely to pop in with surface-level garbage every few days as opposed to just announcing that they aren't doing anything and they don't understand anything; the latter is far more likely to draw immediate attention than the former. I do think that the claim is far more likely to be coming from town than not. Do you disagree with either of these points?

I do - since I was and am the only person raising an issue about Sakura's post - I don't think that is something scum would avoid half as much as you imply.
Also, it plays in perfectly with the concept of Sakura faking being emotive.

Lurking is unusual from her as either alignment.
I see your point re: Sakura having more motivation to lurk out and disappear as scum than she does as town and I agree that the reasons she's lurking out don't really make sense. Would be interested in hearing from notscience at this point, and would be interested in hearing why Sakura needs a useful role in order to post in the game.

Okay then.
Back to the scumhunting in progress.

where have you seen Sakura provide a bunch of town emotional tell as scum and then play "I don't care about this game anymore"?

To be fair AtE is basically Sakura's shtick.

True?

I'm also confused by this.

@Dav - what's your point, literally both Nacho and I were claiming that emotions are part of Sakura's game, all we were doing was debating how to read them.
You either weren't reading what we were saying or really misunderstood it.
Whassup?

You can't possibly think you aren't white knighting, can you?

If you think I am in a scummy way then why in the world are you voting for Pistach - I'm the only assured scum in that situation. In fact, if I'm scum it makes Pistach more likely to be town than random.

I was going to bat at Cat's ridiculous attacks a bit, but Nacho is leaping to my defense so handily I don't need to.

Can you talk about this more?
What are Cataphant's good points against Thor?

"Somewhat-decent" may be a bad choice of words, since what is interesting to me about it is not its quality, but its proximity to the Pistachi0n read which he is willing to act on, but seems less well-formed than his Thor read.

I agree about this.
So, wanna help me vote/bus Cataphant then?

[Davsto]

@Dav - what's your point, literally both Nacho and I were claiming that emotions are part of Sakura's game, all we were doing was debating how to read them.
You either weren't reading what we were saying or really misunderstood it.

I must have misunderstood it; I thought he was saying "since when have you seen Sakura AtE". Didn't realise you were specifically talking about town AtEing; I'm not that well-versed in Sakura's meta.

[farside22]

does it not bother you that thor essentially ignores pistachio until he's called on it, nacho?

It seems like Thor initially townread Pistach for reasons I don't remember. Then he was lukewarm on the lot. Then he pushed a scumread over a lukewarm read. And then Pistach wagon rose up because it was the LC wagon was Pistach's fault and because Pistach wasn't scumhunting and then Thor argued against both of these points.

I don't view this as an unreasonable partner interaction but I also don't think it looks particularly bad regardless of Pistach's alignment.

I'm just noting this because it reminded I saw something in Pist recent post that bothered me and I need to recheck if I was going crazy

[Cataphant]

can we just lynch pistachio or thor?

I'm not scum, massive isn't scum, hecatia isn't scum.

[pistachi0n]

You notice that I don't tend to explain my votes immediately on making them and you've been fine with all of the explanations thus far, so why is me not getting the chance to explain one of my votes scummy?

You waited until the convenient wagon was building up and then voted to "reserve your place on it."

When I voted LC, there were three votes on them, and three votes on you. If I was just looking for a convenient wagon, why didn't I vote you?

My reasoning for suspecting LC obviously wasn't "reserving my place on the wagon". What is the scum motivation you're assigning to a general preference in liking being on wagons earlier rather than later?

That is a good point, you could have voted for me instead. Maybe you thought LC would be more of a threat.