Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[zMuffinMan]

if we're bragging, i think i've never ever shot town as a vig

i think i've never drawn vig, either

[Kilgamayan]

why did you use your -4 to support the idea of your role all-but-proving you to be town

ignoring whether or not i actually thought i was "proving" myself town, it

is

one of the many reasons my role doesn't make sense as a scum role - i don't actually care to discuss this unless it's actually a sticking point for someone, in which case i suppose i would be perfectly fine writing a wall explaining why you're completely wrong about theory if you disagree

Enlighten me, then. I've never been great at the role game, but I don't see how -4 is a gamebreaking benefit when there are multiple other players with superpowered votes.

[GuyInFreezer]

All jokes and potential crumbing aside though, anyone tell me of they're townreading kagami and why.

[Kilgamayan]

##Unvote: Shadoweh
##Vote: Feysal

Forgot to do that before I left.

[Kagami]

Oh that reminds me, i did use a spellcard, i wonder if ppl know who i am now.

I had completely forgotten about that, I was just thinking you were sakuya.

[Kagami]

All jokes and potential crumbing aside though, anyone tell me of they're townreading kagami and why.

You should invite me to your hood. I want to talk to Gaiden, and we can sort this out.

[Kagami]

Just waiting for Feysal and being sad that there's no party.

Waiting for what exactly? I don't think I missed a question from you or anything.

I'm burdening you with a level of proficiency greater than what I'm seeing, that's all.

[Kamigami]

Town-point for feysal though:

The obvious reason muff's role isn't OP as town is that scum probably has cards that can kill as a replacement for the lack of NK. Feysal ignoring that possibility may imply that she legit thinks this is a psuedo-nightless (with that flip-side that if it is, it's evidence that feysal is scum).

[Kagami]

Town-point for feysal though:

The obvious reason muff's role isn't OP as town is that scum probably has cards that can kill as a replacement for the lack of NK. Feysal ignoring that possibility may imply that she legit thinks this is a psuedo-nightless (with that flip-side that if it is, it's evidence that feysal is scum).

bah, hydrae.

[zMuffinMan]

Enlighten me

it helps if you think about it from a design perspective. what is the purpose of my role as a scum role? either it has enough counters that it's not a very strong role (which, imo, would just be poor design and something i wouldn't expect from fakegod) and is therefore... pointless to put in the game as a scum role? or it has 2 maybe 3 "counters" in multivoters which aren't even really hard counters and i auto-win if i get rid of them, barring shenanigans (which is also horrible design, especially since scum probably do have a way of offing players outside of lynches in this game).

no amount of multivoters would actually count as a counter to my role were i scum for those reasons (unless you're just speculating it was a very poorly designed role). i mean, as is, even if every other multivoter was town and voted me, it would still take basically the entire town to lynch me (and it would actually take the entire town and probably some bussing to lynch me if one of them died)... actual counters would be something like vig shots, investigative roles, etc, etc but they're not really specific counters so much as things in the game that could be a detriment to scum. the only real counter would be something that can just completely disable my abilities, but that also is just a general counter to anything... i have the sort of role where there aren't any natural 'counters' that make a whole lot of sense. i basically count as 8 votes. every day

further, and this is actually important to the overall point, why is that rule about the game lasting only 10 days in there if scum has a role where, unless every multivoter lasts until then, is autowin far before that point is ever even reached? like literally, unless someone has 5 votes or 2 multivoters with 6 total votes between them reach lylo, i couldn't lose a lylo situation as scum. why is there a safeguard in place for scum to win come day 10? because my role fucks with them. if you want to know what an actual counter looks like, that's it. you don't put roles in a game where unless X targets Y, Y automatically wins the game. you put in safeguards like that to help one team in the event they're disadvantaged. so if, for example, scum do have a way of offing players in this game, they aren't forced to use it on me because they can never get rid of me during the day; they still have outs in that winning clause

everything about my role (together, not just one aspect of it, like you seem to be suggesting i said) makes far more sense as a town role than a scum role in a game where the rules are as they are here

all of this is considering the fact that i would just be

one

role on a scum team. one role. that would take a large chunk of town power to actually balance properly (because hey, if i didn't even mention my role and played a low key game, i could probably get away with it until the point i actually do autowin as scum). unless the setup is what? entirely balanced around countering my role? (in which case, why the autowin clause?)

and this is objectively right, which is why bork is just totally wrong when he says, "oh but we don't know what else is in the game, maybe there's a counter so it's not more likely a town role"

all that said, i

could

be scum. i could be scum with a dumb, swingy role. a dumb, swingy role that requires me being taken out before a certain point, else scum would basically autowin apart from the autowin clause they already have in place. or maybe it was put in as a scum role just because it's nonsensical as a scum role. or maybe scum is so seriously underpowered that they needed that AND an autowin clause. but really, this is more likely a town role than a scum role

i was being facetious when i called myself an innocent child, but you're simply wrong if you don't understand why it makes more sense as a town role than a scum role

[Kagami]

If you're scum, you're simply lying about the role.

[Kagami]

(Which is also kind of dumb)

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i literally have the exact same flavour 4x vote as gaiden who could tell you it's permanent, so unless you think i'm lying about the -4 also being permanent, that doesn't really work (and yes, i was aware that if suika was in the game, they probably had the same 4x vote i do)

[Kagami]

Shrug, I still think this is getting more attention than it deserves.

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not the one who keeps bringing it up and i said i'd rather drop it

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

i also don't really think feysal is scum atm but all the people i do think are more likely scum aren't posting anything interesting

[zMuffinMan]

that said, it's mostly that i think the angles feysal is taking are kind of weird angles to take as scum

[Kilgamayan]

I agree it generally makes more sense as a town role than a scum role; it was mostly the innocent child comment that made me raise an eyebrow. Acknowledging that such was facetious removes a large chunk of my concern, leaving only a couple of minor detail disagreements - I don't think it's as late-game invincible as scum as you seem to think it is - that aren't really important right now. I'm fine with dropping it for the time being.

[Sakura Hana]

@Sky Paladin: My card was to detect pie's voting strength, I got neighborized by either notty/pie somewhere down the line (i think it was around saturday night?), I have townreads on pie and notty based on neighborhood posts.

[Kagami]

I think you were supposed to use that on shadoweh.

[Sakura Hana]

Yeah I probably used it a bit too early... see i kind of... HAVE to use that card today.

[Kagami]

It was definitely intended to be used on shadoweh.

[pieguyn]

either it has enough counters that it's not a very strong role (which, imo, would just be poor design and something i wouldn't expect from fakegod) and is therefore... pointless to put in the game as a scum role? or it has 2 maybe 3 "counters" in multivoters which aren't even really hard counters and i auto-win if i get rid of them, barring shenanigans (which is also horrible design, especially since scum probably do have a way of offing players outside of lynches in this game).

ftr this is why my initial reaction was to call zmuffin's role a town role. you don't put a scum role where it's like "herp derp, you have to use one of your X limited abilities to get rid of this guy, or you run out of ways to kill it and autolose the game".

I was unsure if I was reading too much into it, though.

[pieguyn]

also I'm the one who added Sakura, but I'm not claiming how.

[SXTLHGaiden]

Gaiden was right for once?
So Mistress Remi, mind if I join your party tonight?