Open 612 - Bad Poets Society - Game Over - Town Win

[Ika Musume]

moreover, she's continued to post no fucking reasoning whatsoever for scum reading them.

btw @duppin, i think this is specifically because she's worried if she *does* elaborate i'll point out why it's wrong (as i've been needling her over it pretty hard) and it'll make her look bad

she's not engaging in more depth about the Brun read because she knows she can't without looking like obvious scum and being unable to push it through - the longer she goes without explaining it, the longer people will think she has a compelling reason for it.

[duppin]

I'm not entirely sure what to respond. I am not townreading them, so obviously I believe their d2 play could come from scum.

I do agree that they've said things that I think are towny, but that applies pretty much for everyone in the game.

The vote record is against Brunneis, but that does not mean they are scum. I just don't see why makara (Persivul) would deflect if they weren't scum buddies, but it is certainly possible.
Kling's townread on me day 1 was very questionable. I called her out several times day 1 for it, as it seemed like she was buddying, yet she never responded.
I also find this very interesting, because day 2 she changed her townread on me to a scumread out of nowhere, after you and Fire Hermit pushed on me.
I asked her why, and this was her response:

If you do not mind me asking Kling, what changed your mind? I want Kling to respond, not you Taly.

It was fairly gradual. I'm use to you being a low-volume poster now, so that wasn't alignment-indicative.

That you focused solely on us and Trivium was kinda weird.

Your post aren't content-heavy, as the IC trolls pointed out they're more reactive than proactive.

You aren't my strongest scumread, but I just can't put you into my Town pile.

I'll leave Taly's vote here for now.

Klingoncelt

She claims that me being a low-volume poster isn't alignment indicative, yet she chose to townread me for it day 1, which makes me believe that she was indeed buddying.

Anyway, about Ranger I don't know. She could very well be scum, but I honestly don't really feel like pursuing it today, because I am convinced there is at least one scum between Brunneis and Persivul. Obviously this is easy for me to say since I know I am town, but there has to be at least one scum between them.

[Ranger]

my issue with ranger is that she's mostly spent this entire game mostly tunneling her reads without any sort of reevaluation or awareness of anything going on elsewhere.

Wrong. My reads have, several times, changed. My read on Makara/Persivul changed. My read on Brunneis changed. My read on GrayFox changed. The only read I have consistently held is my read on Errantparabola being scum. All other reads (well, except the obvious) have fluctuated.

I simply haven't had my stance change on Errant, because nothing done has changed anything.

the fact that she was passive enough to not bother pushing brunneis while supposedly doing this is also bad in hindsight

I pushed Brunneis plenty. All of my quotes were pushing Brunneis during the massclaim. I didn't give

reasoning

, but I was pushing. I stopped my push when I was no longer convinced they were scum.

even when she *did* have a strong scum read (Persi), she still did fucking nothing to push it

Except I did? Literally every post was me talking about how I wanted Persivul lynched. I was bringing up his posts as they happened, stating my distaste for them, and stating my preference for a lynch on him, while begrudgingly acknowledging that it might not have the support to go through. That's me pushing.

i find ranger's magical SK-read on fox to be problematic because i would expect it to be a legitimate read alignment regardless, but it is significantly easier to distinguish mafia vs. SK when you know who the mafia is

Look, I was just as surprised as you were when it ended up being right, but that's what I was reading him as. I didn't think he was town, but I didn't think he was mafia. The better question you have to ask is why I, as

mafia

, would

publicly declare

that I thought GrayFox was a serial killer, when I could just hide him under the thought of him being a mafiate. All it did was paint a target on me for being suspiciously accurate, no?

i think Brun is the scum-designated LYLO mislynch, which, incidentally, both Ranger and duppin are pushing.

Look, either I pushed it or I didn't. Make up your mind. The answer is yes-I-did, but no-I'm-not.

[Ranger]

i imagine at this point if Brun is town (which i think is the case), the scum team didn't really give a shit about which wagon went through to a lynch. both Brun and Trivium had a fair amount of suspicion on them iirc

I ask you again. If Brunneis and Trivium were both town, then where are the scum?

The reasonable answer is distributed between the two wagons equally. This is something I can see as possible. (Again, not pushing Brunneis, contrary to your claim. My push has always been on Errant and more recently, Persivul.)

The follow-through question is, if both wagons were on town, how did they form? This, again, comes back to Errantparabola's L-1 wagon.
Makara switched from the Errant wagon to the Trivium wagon. This fits with the pattern of scum who are coming off of a bus-vote, onto a wagon on town.

[Ika Musume]

I'm not entirely sure what to respond. I am not townreading them, so obviously I believe their d2 play could come from scum.

i am more interested in why you disagree, as opposed to just the fact that you disagree. i.e. in response to the first point why do you think they, as scum, would see a wagon on them again on d2 and think "obviously the best way to get out of this is to attack everyone, since that's clearly the best way to sway them off of me" - rather than "i'll try and convince players X and Y that i'm town so they stop pushing me"

what town things has, e.g. Ranger or maxwell, said this game?

She claims that me being a low-volume poster isn't alignment indicative, yet she chose to townread me for it day 1, which makes me believe that she was indeed buddying.

i'm not reading into this - i think they were just applying meta incorrectly, and erroneously thought you wouldn't lurk as hard as scum (which they then rescinded).

Anyway, about Ranger I don't know. She could very well be scum, but I honestly don't really feel like pursuing it today, because I am convinced there is at least one scum between Brunneis and Persivul. Obviously this is easy for me to say since I know I am town, but there has to be at least one scum between them.

might i be able to sway you onto Ranger given enough effort?

i don't see myself voting either of those today

[Ranger]

I have a further comment on Persivul.

He was just scum with me in Blitz 1.
My play is similar here to my play in that game. I don't do meta, but unless Persivul shares my belief...by all rights,

he should be scumreading me

.
Instead, Persivul instantly listed my fluffless "focused reads" as town, when that is exactly how I played in Blitz 1 as his scumbuddy.

[Ika Musume]

The follow-through question is, if both wagons were on town, how did they form? This, again, comes back to Errantparabola's L-1 wagon.
Makara switched from the Errant wagon to the Trivium wagon. This fits with the pattern of scum who are coming off of a bus-vote, onto a wagon on town.

i don't agree. why couldn't it just be scum moving off a ... town ... wagon onto another town wagon?

i would still like a more in-depth explanation for WHY you're (or were) reading Brun as scum, and why Errant is scum outside of the wagon etc. you claim withholding reasoning until later in the game is beneficial. it's fucking MYLO, this doesn't work anymore.

[Ranger]

This is my iso that game.
This is my iso this game. They are pretty similar, yet...

I went into this with low expectations because I believe Ranger has played poorly since my entrance. But, this was the best ISO I've seen yet. Very little fluff. Maintaining focus on primary targets but unlike others was pressuring some secondary suspicions as well. It was so consistently solid that I don't have specifics to point out.

Conclusion: town

I don't see how a Persivul who has seen my play there and sees the similarity here calls me town.

[Ika Musume]

i would like to see Persi's response to that to be sure but as it is i don't agree.

[Ranger]

it looked more like she was simply going with the flow, in that she started to apply pressure after a majority of people had done so

This fundamentally goes against my beliefs as a player, town or scum. My reasons will always be my own. If I'm scum applying pressure to someone, I want to be the one applying pressure to them. If I am town applying pressure to someone, it is because I want to apply pressure to them. I will let majority influence my vote particularly as town: if I strongly suspect two players and only one of them is being wagoned, I will vote the player that is being wagoned unless I have reason not to.

I was the first to apply pressure to Errant, and only one to have consistently done so. I have applied pressure to Brunneis, and did so consistently for nearly the entire first half of D2. I switched that pressure to consistently be on Persivul since then, and have not let up. The only one of those which could

possibly

fit the profile is Brunneis, but my pressure on Brunneis actually started

after

the peak of the Brunneis wagon. In other words, when the wagon was in its decline. Check the votes if you don't believe me, but you already know it's true.

I am not an amateur. More than any other thing, I resent the thought of a player thinking I would be stupid enough to play like rookie scum.

moreover, she's continued to post no fucking reasoning whatsoever for scum reading them.

Yes, and? I'm perfectly capable of fabricating reasoning when I choose to do so. You've seen my reluctance to release reasoning first-hand before, so why are you bringing it up here?

does this look like town who had Brun as a top scum read most of the game

Of course not, because Brunneis wasn't. Errant was my top scumread D1. Errant was my top scumread at the beginning of D2. Persivul was my top scumread for the latter half of D2. Brunneis was only my top scumread in the period between Errant and Persivul on D2.

[Ika Musume]

I am not an amateur. More than any other thing, I resent the thought of a player thinking I would be stupid enough to play like rookie scum.

this reads like you're deliberately overreacting in order to get town read as "frustrated town". which, conveniently, you also did with Persi D2.

will respond to the rest of the post later, if i decide to

[Ranger]

i think this is specifically because she's worried if she *does* elaborate i'll point out why it's wrong (as i've been needling her over it pretty hard) and it'll make her look bad

OR, I just don't like giving my reasons out and don't really care if you like or don't like them.

she's not engaging in more depth about the Brun read because she knows she can't without looking like obvious scum

God I swear if you weren't confirmed town you would be my largest scumread because of this tunnel on me that you've, consistently, held throughout your entire entrance into the game off of things that

by all rights you should know better than

.

i don't see myself voting either of those today

Then I don't see town winning.

why couldn't it just be scum moving off a ... town ... wagon onto another town wagon?

Their reason for this would be...what? Opportunism?

i would still like a more in-depth explanation for WHY you're (or were) reading Brun as scum

I didn't like much of their early posting, though it was passable enough that they were a minor scumread compared to my others. Then came that page (22, was it?), where their walls contained some

ridiculously

scummy stuff (I'd have to go back and actually check to remember what, since I don't exactly write these things down in notes), particularly around the middle of the page if I recall correctly, and they instantly shot up in the scum list. Combine that with the fact that all the players suspecting them were proven town in some form or another (save GrayFox, who wasn't groupscum), and VCA heavily incriminated them, and the conclusion was scum. I'm not as convinced anymore.

why Errant is scum outside of the wagon etc.

There isn't anything town about Errant, for a start. Most of Errant's posting is a gigantic, net-null. There isn't anything bad about it, yes, but there's nothing good present. This means that what I have is limited to what I've already said. You're asking for more, but none exists because none COULD exist. Do you want me to lie? Do you want me to pull quotes up from throughout Errant's iso that I

don't actually believe are scummy

and stretch them so I claim they are? I've already explained the read. I think Errant's early play was indicative of scum. When the wagon shot up to L-1, I thought it was a good wagon, but the wagon mysteriously and suspiciously dissolved, forming the Brunneis and Trivium wagons. For Brunneis to be town, AND Errant to be town, would require that every single major wagon on D1 was on town. And I do not believe that.

but as it is i don't agree.

What don't you agree about? That my play is similar to that game? Same rough amount of posts in the same timeframe (lylo), same rough length in the iso, same rough level of contribution and explanation. What do you see that is so different in this game compared to that game? And if you see it, then how does it relate to Persivul's comment on me?

[Ranger]

this reads like you're deliberately overreacting in order to get town read as "frustrated town".

If anything I'm UNDERREACTING TO YOUR BS.

There are words in the English language that I want to say of you.

They are words that I would say if not for the fact that they have no place in this game.

will respond to the rest of the post later, if i decide to

And there you have it.

You're not reading me.

You've already decided that I'm scum.

And are now writing everything I say to be scum.

[Ika Musume]

holy jesus fuck calm the fuck down.

if i don't respond to a post, it's because i don't think it will lead anywhere at that juncture and will only serve to create a bunch of noise which will obfuscate actual discussion. if we wound up getting in a huge wall vs. wall shitfight at this point, either no one would read it if you're scum (bad for me) or it'd be entirely pointless if you're town.

your explanation re: Brun and Errant was what i've been looking for this whole time, but i don't have enough time to analyze it in-depth rn

[Ranger]

holy jesus fuck calm the fuck down.

Oh I'm sure if I were scum faking a reaction in order to be read as frustrated town I could.

But MAYBE I'm ACTUALLY JUST FRUSTRATED TOWN right now dealing with you being in non-stop, constant tunnel mode.

Name something from me you see as town.

[Ika Musume]

you don't have enough faith to think that i'm willing to reconsider my stance even when i'm _explicitly backing off_? if that's the case, then wow

[Ranger]

you don't have enough faith to think that i'm willing to reconsider my stance even when i'm _explicitly backing off_?

I didn't see any backing off, there. But if you say it's there, then I'm willing to trust that you're being honest and you are. My apologies.

[Brunneis]

My head is feeling... meh.... I have been doing a bunch of stuff today with relatives and etc. But I finally am able to post.

Varsoon died.

Greyfoxxxx - (6) Brunneis,

Persivul

, Ika Musume,

Ranger, duppin

, Varsoon

Gray being an SK - that means scum never knew if he were town or not. I'm confident there is at least 1 scum amongst these names.

That's probably why his wagon got so many votes so quickly.

This worries me. Duppin never pushed Gray until I did; which bothers me... It makes me think he wanted to set-up both of our hypothetical mislynches by saying that I was town if Gray was scum, and vice versa. With the idea that he's scum; which I don't know how the hell town would play like he has at this point, but this is mylo, so I'm going to take a bit more time with everything before making a move.

Ranger doesn't look much better, but he may be town, and I want to re-read him a bit... Especially since Klingon and I aren't fond of how Errant looks atm, and Max also gives me a weird feeling.

in case it's not obvious, i think Brun is the scum-designated LYLO mislynch, which, incidentally, both Ranger and duppin are pushing.

Can this please stop? You (and Brunneis) seriously need to drop this "everyone vs Brunneis" already.

Now I do have a question. Why wasn't Brunneis lynched day 1?

When have I NOT been in the spotlight of being a top lynch candidate in this game?

Plus, the fact that you keep raising the same question about why I wasn't lynched D1 if it were true - just makes me think you're scum evading a valid argument.

But honestly; why the hell would scum care about whether I died, or Trivium did in D1? And furthermore, with all the dichotomies this playerlist has adored attaching to in this game, Trivium would be in a very similar position as I am right now had I had been lynched D1.

1** I couldn't care less if you think it is scummy to be honest. It's just really frustrating that you are basing all of your reads on Brunneis being town.

2** I know for a fact that your reads are wrong, because you are calling me scum and I know I am town

. I am willing to consider Brunneis to be town, but then you need to provide me with an alternative world, but you fail to do that. (by calling me scum).
When I have to be scum for your reads to add up, I know you are wrong.

Possible scum: Brunneis, Ranger, Persivul, Maxwell and Errant.

3** Brunneis by my top scum at the moment simply based on day 1. Sure you can keep pushing the "trying to set up a mislynch" agenda all you want to, but I know I am town so it's irrelevant.

I'm curious though, does my alignment change your read on Brunneis?

Please just consider me to be town for a moment

- that means that your read about me trying to set up a mislynch is wrong. Does that change your read on Brunneis? Knowing that no one is trying to setup a mislynch? (At least not me).

Brunneis was the leading train day 1. The votes on them were: GrayFoxxxx, Fire Hermit, Trivium and goodmorning.
That's 1 SK, and three confirmed town.

4** Then makara (Persivul's slot) voted on Trivium, even though Brunneis was the leading train. Why?
Also If I was scum, I would have chosen to lynch Brunneis day 1 and keep Trivium around for a mislynch day 2, not the other way around.

Anyway, I have no idea why makara would vote on Trivium instead. I know I voted on Trivium as well after this, but the trains were even and I've already explained why I put my vote on Trivium. Should also be fairly obvious me and Brunneis aren't scum buddies.
If Brunneis was town, I see no reason for makara to do this as scum. If makara was town, it would've made more sense, but that would mean that the team would be Ranger, Errant and Maxwell, and I do not believe Ranger and Errant could be aligned, which means Brunneis would have to replace one of them (in case makara was town), which means that they are still scum.

5** But this seems fairly unlikely to me. I'm pretty sure that Brunneis and Persivul are both scum. Not sure who the last member is though.
My vote is going to end up on either Brunneis or Persivul today. I'm trying to figure out who would be the best lynch, and at the moment I think Brunneis is

.

This post is horrible on so many accounts: (I am bolding the parts specifically that scream scum to me.)

1)

Alright... So it's mylo and you don't give a shit if someone thinks you're scummy? Damn, even town should be concerned at this point because town NEEDS TO ALL VOTE SCUM TO WIN at this point.

Also, you call out that Ika's reads are based on me being town (which is wrong, if you actually read their posts.) - but then WHENEVER I've suspected you, or someone else has - you go on about

"consider me as town about this and"

Seriously? This is too avoidant and too self-conscious about it.

2)

Wow. You say that as if nobody else could say it. Weak retort.

3)

So I've been your top scumread this entire time and you STILL think I'm the top lynch?

You never did fucking anything to push me in D1; and in fact, you even sheeped everybody in voting to lynch Trivium. This is so fabricated out of left-field. 442

4)

Where the hell did Persivul come from in this argument?

5)

Oh, so even though it's mylo - and you could be wrong entirely about the lynchpool

You say you won't vote ANYBODY except for Persivul or myself?

What the hell? You're way too confident to lynch someone in lylo at this point - especially if you wouldn't comply with ANY OTHER notion that could lead to someone else being scum.

Actually, just to make it simple.

If Brunneis is town, the scum are: Persivul, Maxwell and Ranger/Errant.
If Brunneis is scum, the scum are: Brunneis, Persivul and unknown.

So....

If I'm town, it gives you MORE ideas on what the entire scumteam is.

If I'm scum, you don't even know all the people that could possibly be scum with me.

And I'm still the best lynch in MYLO?

Please, re-think this and god forbid you read this entire post and magically find another fake reason to suspect me more, and to pursue my lynch.

So Grayfox and Brunneis weren't aligned. That was interesting.
The thing with Kling is she is using heavy AtE which she doesn't use as town as hard. Like its more her scum play than anything else at least from my experience.

-Fire

Not ready to jump the vote anywhere though.
Me and my other head haven't been talking but I think he wants to still push Brunneis

This is why I've had issues with almost everybody in this game for the past 30 pages.

Everybodys reads are mostly based off of Klingon, not me. Not Taly... I've done as much as I can, but everybody is meta-reading Klingon and not even trying with me, except maybe Ika.

I've seen Klingon in both alignments; AtE is not a scum or town tell for her, and I don't think she's even done that this game. -_-

I feel ignored. The only major engagement I've had with people this game was either them calling me scum for no stated reasoning; or me pushing them as a suspect because I actually presented a case on them.

Kling's townread on me day 1 was very questionable. I called her out several times day 1 for it, as it seemed like she was buddying, yet she never responded.

Are you seriously scumreading someone because they townread you?

Also, why are you still on about KLINGONS READ ON YOU?

I also find this very interesting, because day 2 she changed her townread on me to a scumread out of nowhere, after you and Fire Hermit pushed on me.
I asked her why, and this was her response:

Klingons scumread on you was out of nowhere?

Hello, my name is Taly. Did you not know that I was the one who pushed you in D2.

And out of nowhere? Seriously? Thanks for minimization and misrep, as you can see; there's walls dedicated to our suspicion of you.

If you do not mind me asking Kling, what changed your mind? I want Kling to respond, not you Taly.

It was fairly gradual. I'm use to you being a low-volume poster now, so that wasn't alignment-indicative.

That you focused solely on us and Trivium was kinda weird.

Your post aren't content-heavy, as the IC trolls pointed out they're more reactive than proactive.

You aren't my strongest scumread, but I just can't put you into my Town pile.

I'll leave Taly's vote here for now.

Klingoncelt

She claims that me being a low-volume poster isn't alignment indicative, yet she chose to townread me for it day 1, which makes me believe that she was indeed buddying.

Anyway, about Ranger I don't know. She could very well be scum, but I honestly don't really feel like pursuing it today, because I am convinced there is at least one scum between Brunneis and Persivul. Obviously this is easy for me to say since I know I am town, but there has to be at least one scum between them.

Buddying with you? OK, why are you still on about 1 thing that my other head did?

Is that all of what your read is based off of? Because this head of the hydra has interacted with you more than anyone else in this game.

And tbh, I never townread you in first place. Honestly, I don't know why you didn't replace out if you were just going to lurk D1; which in hindsight, makes me question if you were scum laying low?

And again, I have no idea how Persivul came into this equation.

>>>>>>>>>

Not sure what to make of Ranger and Ika atm. But I'll read I depth later... Already fulfilled my capacity for thinking today.

~Taly

I'm caring a bit less about signing at this point, this isn't a secret hydra - and even if it was, I slipped 3 times in this game already and Klingon signs herself.

Maybe signing myself will give people incentive to actually address me?

[Ika Musume]

^ i do not see how any town player sees the above as scum.

[Ika Musume]

Not sure what to make of Ranger and Ika atm. But I'll read I depth later... Already fulfilled my capacity for thinking today.

i'm still conftown btw - if i was lying, it would be CDMTTTT and there wouldn't be an SK in the game.

[Ranger]

I'm doing a reread right now from the beginning. 10 from Errant felt forced to me at the time, rather than the more natural-sounding 5, 6, 7, and 8. (Also, 23 by duppin is a good example of a town RVS post, where he was clearly having fun. I'm almost positive 30 was him continuing the troll.) Then, we get Errant's 12, which also felt unnatural to me.

My initial Brunneis suspicion started with 20--note how Brunneis is asking about my vote on Errant, as well as Errant's vote on Makara. This struck me as a very likely scumbuddy interaction. (Yes, I know, preflip associatives.) I also had a bad vibe from 41, though I've long-since forgotten the exact reason why. Similarly, in 67, I

think

the suspicious part that caught my eye was the first three paragraphs, covering Errant and makara.

When it came to Errant's 24, it felt too serious. 47 is ironic in that I actually felt Errant was themselves overresponding. 71 on a reread does come across as forced to me, so we can add that to the list. (I don't think it was already there.)

[Ranger]

i do not see how any town player sees the above as scum.

Well, I don't, but I don't particularly see it as town. Possibly-town, I suppose, but if I were to rate that post, it'd be nulltown.

[Ika Musume]

sidenote IF ranger is town, i would be looking at some combination of {persi, errant, duppin, maxwell}

which i could actually see, tbh.

[Ranger]

120 by Maxwell

might

be scum, difficult to tell for sure.

Errantparabola - (4) goodmorning, Ranger, Makara, Brunneis

Adding 141 (town) and 142 (town), we get L-1 which looks like:

Errantparabola - (6) goodmorning, Ranger, Makara, Brunneis, The Fire Hermit, Trivium

The Fire Hermit hopped off immediately, suspicious of Trivium. goodmorning also came off, saying Errant mounted a reasonable defense. Brunneis hopped off with no reasoning attached. They go from being suspicious of Varsoon in 167 (in part thanks to Varsoon following the IC) to themselves joining the wagon he's on in 169. This doesn't reflect well on Brunneis. 177 is Errant defending Brunneis, which also doesn't look good. Makara joins in the Brunneis defense in 203.

Worth noting though is that posting-wise, Brunneis at around page 11 doesn't look like scum. So conflicted feelings.

[Ranger]

280 by makara shows a contradiction with 203: in the former, makara is questioning Brunneis defense, whereas in the latter earlier post, makara is questioning the Brunneis offense--what caused the change in attitude? I can't see it.

292 is another potential scum post from MaxwellPuckett. They notes suspicion on Errant, but doesn't pursue it. (Do I do singular verbs or plural verbs for They as a pronoun?) They lists instead Trivium and goodmorning, with a minor bit still at Brunneis, hopping wagons from the Brunneis wagon which was slightly stalled onto the Trivium wagon that was forming. (Hmm. HMMM.)

In hindsight, 301 by Errant is pinging me a bit, too.

And I'd rather either goodmorning or Trivium, than Brunneis

Yet Errant, who Maxwell wasn't liking the posts of, is absent...

If I had to guess a scumteam, on page 13, it'd be {Errant, makara/Persivul, MaxwellPuckett}.