Mini 1742: game over

[RadiantCowbells]

You're arguing that I was doing it intentionally.

I'm arguing that both 1) there was no reason to do intentionally and that 2) I was not doing so intentionally in the least.

If I was scum, I wouldn't have left my vote down there. That's all there is to it.

[RadiantCowbells]

And no, I want this.

VOTE: Titus

[JohnnyFarrar]

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

Sorry baby I don't do slow.

@RC , its somehow not usual you. I think (with my little knowledge) you start a very angry wagon on someone at this stage of game ...

Where does this knowledge come from?

And no, I want this.

VOTE: Titus

How much of this should I regard as that hatefuck of a relationship you have with Titus?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Haven't read anything yet, this avatar is extremely creepy.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[Frozen Angel]

Where does this knowledge come from?

no more explanation. Its about lots of ongoing games.

[Frozen Angel]

Haven't read anything yet, this avatar is extremely creepy.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

and yours not?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Do you think it is?

[JohnnyFarrar]

I actually like your avatar. Don't you feel rude now?

[JohnnyFarrar]

tfw no one is here and Al think ur creepy

[mykonian]

votecount

Wickan (3): ICEninja, JohnnyFarrar, Frozen Angel
JohnnyFarrar (2): A Simple Plan, Albert B. Rampage
RadiantCowbells (2): Wickan, Titus
Frozen Angel (1): talah
Titus (1): RadiantCowbells

not voting (1): Taly

[Taly]

Funny how the people who've played with me before are having a shitfest with each other while I'm busy 1v1ing someone in the corner.

Did you think I was in significant danger of being lynched?

On page 3? Absolutely not. If the wagon had continued and you put to L-1 on page 8, without Taly having a good place to move his vote to? I can absolutely see that.

Wtf? That is way too presumptuous and tunnel-minded thinking.

I don't see town with this thought process... The idea that you must believe that someone would do this so early in the game suggests that you're waiting to strike someone versus actually trying to understand what it could be coming from.

I'm being called opportunistic for my jump on Wickan's wagon.

Now apparently - my unvote is weird, too?

Yes. It looks like you felt you made a mistake with your vote, then unvoted.

Because

1)

I didn't want the wagon to go to L-1?

2)

The vote itself wasn't very strong; and it was meant for pressure and incentive to ask a question.

3)

The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

All of which, I've said about twice now...

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell

This is very possible. A quick check of his posts show that he hasn't posted in his other game(s) since Friday, and this game started yesterday. If he had posted elsewhere I would agree with you completely, but not posting anywhere on the site during a weekend is kind of null-ish IMO.

Ah, I didn't see that.

Meh... his entrance was useless.

And FA's wasn't? Because you did say that the speed of Wickan's wagon was fast given that FA and I voted.

FA's was equally opportunistic. I gave reasoning why I find FA to be less likely scum than you, ergo I voted you. That being said, I really should do a onceover of her. Memo to self.

I'll help you remember that about FA - especially when you said - and state in this post, that I am scum and not 'more or less likely.'

Plus, did you not read my post links? I already stated before that I was considering the Wickan wagon - even before John prompted to put the vote there.

Yet you stayed with your RVS vote until there was a wagon. Ergo, my accusation of opportunism.

Um.... So....

I didn't join the FA wagon. (Which was mostly RVS, I know.)

I didn't join the talah wagon. (Which isn't entirely RVS.)

I thought of joining the RC wagon, but decided on Wickan.

Yeah.... >_> I'm definitely opportunistic.

Oh... So now you're referring back to that "scum" - not singularly saying that I'm probably scum versus FA who looked more town, right?

I can't vote both of you. I picked which fish to chase. Though as I said above, both of you merit some deeper investigation.

To be fair, I still am suspicious of Wickan. He was my original vote, after all, but Taly jumping on him made you seem more likely to be scum until I remembered that tidbit suggesting night talk. As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The one nagging feeling I have about Taly right now is that he hasn't voted me. Scum Taly had ample opportunity to drop a safe vote on me during this whole argument but hasn't.

.......

Are you trying to bait me?

You said that the one NAGGING feeling about me is that I'm not voting you - as if that's why you could be pushing?

But then you said scum Taly would have had so much opportunity to drop a safe vote on you.

MAYBE I JUST THINK YOU'RE MISGUIDED TOWN?

Maybe I haven't found enough reason to conceal a vote that isn't partially just for pressure?

The idea that you're pulling my punches, makes me think you could be town.

And even though your argument is ----- not the best, politely ----- that doesn't erase town from saying this.

I typically get into a lot of TvTs in games - especially D1.

-------------

Regarding Wickan/RC/Titus, I read RC's townread of FA on page 2 as joking at first due to the heart, but after a re-read I feel like I probably shouldn't have based on his post 70 giving a reason for the FA townread. This gives Titus and Wickan more credibility, and means I might need to re-evaluate some of my reads.

I still feel like talah reads pro-town, and I like Johnny's aggression but I need to go through everything again when I have time with the mindset that RC was indeed voting a townread, which could impact my read of Wickan and Johnny both. Also need to spend more time analyzing Frozen Angel.

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

I would say Johnny obvtowned with his first post about RC... Given our last game when RC and I were mafia together. And some of his others posts.

But his tone is different this game.... I want to look at him more closely.

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

you want to calm down your partner ha?

@RC , its somehow not usual you. I think (with my little knowledge) you start a very angry wagon on someone at this stage of game ...

Taly I can't see a good reason to unvote before wiccon's answer. It seems you wanted to say he is scummy But you didn't want to pressure him (like he is your scum partner) ...

Interesting how you never brought this up whenever I actually unvoted.

>>>>>>

More thoughts

>

Talah needs to get in here, ASAP.

>

Not really fond of Titus saying that RCs vote was OMGUS. Though, I'd like to hear more of RC's case on her.

[Frozen Angel]

^ I wasn't online whenever you actually unvoted. or I was but I didn't noticed

you unvoted at 2 am in midnight in my timeline so ...

are you accepting this that unvote was scummy?
what was your reason for unvote again?

and I like your questions about Ice ninja really like to see his answers.

[Frozen Angel]

@wiccon how do you feel about people who are pushing you?

if you where a day vig. who was your target right now?

hint : trick question

[Wickan]

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

if you where a day vig. who was your target right now?

No

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

[RadiantCowbells]

How much of this should I regard as that hatefuck of a relationship you have with Titus?

Uh, 0%.

[Frozen Angel]

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it

so your agreed that Taly's unvote was very scummy atm?

and yet if you were day vig you wouldn't claim it and kill him?

[Wickan]

As I said, I'm not quite sure how to read Taly's unvote. It was certainly anti-town thought. However, I think his interactions with ICE are far scummier.

[Frozen Angel]

and yet if you were day vig you wouldn't claim it and kill him?

[Frozen Angel]

A simple yes or no can satisfy me. I already started my meta analyses ...

[Frozen Angel]

actually there aren't enough things to analise ... just a finished newbie game as town ... :/

[Wickan]

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

[ICEninja]

So a quick post about P5 before I do a more thorough combing through of certain early interactions:

As Wickan notes, Taly's 110 is filled with inconsistencies. However, the actual TONE of the post comes off exactly how mine do when I'm getting railed by someone as town for reasons I feel are absurd. My biggest issue is the countless number of times Taly said "this isn't reading as town", then bolds that it is a possibility he's reading me as misguided town. I'm somewhat torn about Taly now.

Then Wickan says this:

The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum.

One of the big hallmarks of scum play is they so frequently admit things are possible, or that something makes sense for them as scum, only to brush it off in the next sentence. Town has

absolutely no business

saying this at all because if you already KNOW you're town then that thought wouldn't even enter your head, let alone "confuse" you enough to post it.

I legitimately feel like this was a substantial scum slip, as it shows insight in to a thought process that someone with a town role PM simply wouldn't have had.

A scum flip here would be extremely telling in regards to Taly too.

Unvote, Vote Wickan

. This should be L-2.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Funny how the people who've played with me before are having a shitfest with each other while I'm busy 1v1ing someone in the corner.

I read this and wanted to say something, but I got nothing.

But his tone is different this game.... I want to look at him more closely.

Shall I pose?

Uh, 0%.

So now's when you try to get other people to vote with you by saying like well thought out reasons and stuff

Oh and if last game is any indication Taly is probably town, btw.

[talah]

I'm sorta here, had a couple of busy days. I'll be able to catch up after work in about 10-12 hours.

Also agree with the above, Taly is almost certainly town and the couple(?) of votes on him are terrible.

[Taly]

So after people worked onto me about my vote on Wickan to be opportunistic

Now people's attention is at my unvote; because god forbid me to interact with a moving D1 wagon with my OWN judgement, right?

^ I wasn't online whenever you actually unvoted. or I was but I didn't noticed

you unvoted at 2 am in midnight in my timeline so ...

are you accepting this that unvote was scummy?
what was your reason for unvote again?

and I like your questions about Ice ninja really like to see his answers.

Um.... Honey, no.

I never said my vote was scummy. Ice stated that my unvote seemed like I made a mistake.

I stated reasons as to why I unvoted.

Don't twist it.

110 is ugly.

So... Actually engaging with someone presenting an argument against me is ugly?

In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town;

1)

Yes, I am having difficulty that Ice's thought process is town. Does that mean he must be scum? Disagreements don't always mean scum, this is why town gets lynched.

2)

I didn't explicitly say that I thought Ice was misguided town. I said that some elements of his approach with his argument was towny - and when he asserted that I was scum and trying to bait me for the vote, I told him why I may not be voting him - which is partially the truth.

Assumptions are corrosive, especially when people weigh them too harshly on people who are scum. I have a mixed read on Ice - in case you didn't realize.

b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything;

Did you NOT read my 53?

When was my vote EVER completely about pressuring you?

And no explanation? I'm sorry, but did you not see the part where I said:

3) The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

Sorry I didn't draw a picture and sent it in a separate post.

c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic;

I'm sorry but you said my vote ONTO your wagon.

But here you said:

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all

Nice seeing how you completely changed your demeanor and thought of your wagon when I argued against this shit case over my vote.

d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

Oh, I can give you ALL my town games. You'll see me get into a lot of shit with people.

Talah, RC, Titus - they've all seen my town game at least once (Same as ABR, I think) - and Johnny and RC have seen my scum game.

But that's not even why these final 2 'points' are bad.

1)

Where am I hedging Ice's read on Johnny? All I said was that - partially a meta read - I thought Johnny was quite town. Since my very last game he was town.

I made it clear that I also thought his tone was different, and I wanted to observe a bit more to be firm on the read.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

VOTE: Taly

Speaking of opportunistic votes...

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

And does that tell you that you should pay attention to Ice's "theory" that we're a scumpair? -_-

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

A scum flip here would be extremely telling in regards to Taly too.

Still don't see this mastermind 'Wickan+Taly theory' scumpair or anything.

Funny how the people who've played with me before are having a shitfest with each other while I'm busy 1v1ing someone in the corner.

I read this and wanted to say something, but I got nothing.

Well, what was your feels and thoughts about it?

But his tone is different this game.... I want to look at him more closely.

Shall I pose?

What do you think of Ice and Wickan's push onto me?

Do you understand the Titus push, because I'm not exactly... And I'm waiting for RC to recognize my existence.

Also, I'm throwing FA to my active nulltown pile as of this point. The phrasing of her questions don't feel crude.