Daytalk for Newbies

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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:44 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

In post 87, Mina wrote:We congregate in a secret subterranean cavern, guarded by elite assassins. To enter, we must provide retina and fingerprint scans, along with the secret handshake. Mods have been gunned down on the spot for messing the handshake up.

New list mods and discussion mods must endure a grueling six-month period of hazing, involving giving ourselves alcohol poisoning while standing naked in the harsh Dallas winters, receiving cigarette burns on our genitals, kidnapping Christian children to use their blood in our dark rituals, and performing obscene acts with pigs. If we survive, we pledge our everlasting loyalty to the Mafiascum cabal by our holy altar--a noose painted gold--and sign a contract in our own blood. Then we are finally given the passcode for the inner sanctum of our lair, where we hold our policy meetings.

Inside, Thesp and zoraster sit on a dais, decked in chains of precious metals and jewels. On a ledge behind them is mith's coffin, where he sleeps...waiting.

Beneath them, we are seated around a massive marble and oak table--blues on the left, greens on the right. We are then served elaborate banquets of quail and pheasant, fresh bread with caviar and foie gras, a bottomless supply of champagne, and pies full of live kittens for dessert. Now and then, the Unofficial Mafiascum Contributors crawl in on all fours with trays of hors d'oeuvres and cocktails on their backs, and we help ourselves, occasionally stepping on them and kicking them in the face for our own amusement.

Once the meal is winding down, zoraster rises and announces the beginning of the policy discussion. He calls on us one by one, clockwise around the table. The mod must stand--if he or she dares, the mod may suggest a change to his queue or general site policy. If the suggestion especially displeases zoraster, or if the mod forget to refer to him as Lord Otter, Supreme Otter, Holy Ruler of All Otters and Infallible God Who Blesses Us with His Otterly Wisdom, he signals to the assassins, and the mod is riddled with bullets. In his more charitable moods, zoraster just laughs cruelly and banishes the mod from that night's meeting.

But if zoraster thinks the idea has merit, he motions to Thesp, who reaches beneath his chair to retrieve several items. Among them is an ancient cistern covered in arcane markings, rumoured to have been in the inner circle of admins' possession for centuries, and plastic baggies full of white and black pebbles. Thesp recites an incantation over the cistern, and then he and zoraster cast two pebbles apiece into it before Thesp descends the staircase of the dais.

In order to rule on the change, we all cast our pebbles into the cistern. A white pebble is a vote for yea, a black for nay. The suggestion shall only be passed if two-thirds of the pebbles in the cistern are white. If fewer than a third are white, then the mod who suggested the idea is sentenced to two hundred lashings for his folly.

If the suggestion receives enough votes, we perform a ceremony to seal the pact. One at a time, we walk up the stairs of the dais, kiss mith's coffin, and then kneel before zoraster and Thesp and kiss each of their feet. We then chant in a language none of us understand but which seems to mention "diabolus" a lot. Finally, we march to the altar while Untrod Tripod fetches the screaming Christian child we have locked in the dungeon. On the foot of the altar, he slits the child's throat to the sound of our bacchanalian ululating, and we dance frenetically as we bathe in its spurting blood. Then we wash up, and Thesp and zoraster retreat to their office to draft an action plan they'll hand us in a week for implementing the changes.

Meanwhile, the list mods and discussion mods each retire to their separate chambers to sift through reports, which involves randomizing a number and declaring that to be the ban length, then having another drink.

Any other questions?

/confirm
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:37 am

Post by kuribo »

Daytalk Mafia: Rise of the Serenes
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:45 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

And daytalk only: no night talk
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:00 am

Post by kuribo »

Everyone gets a PT. they may talk during the day and invite anyone else that they trust into it
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:26 pm

Post by ai_shuuu »

hi, im new to this site
So, what is scum daytalk mean?
Do scum can not have a discussion in private before this?
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:40 pm

Post by Wisdom »

They can do it only during night phases, whereas in games with daytalk they can do it at any time.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:34 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

In post 13, Porochaz wrote:Also the main purpose of newbie games is to weed those not interested out rather than trying to retain people. Especially if we bend too far to trying to retain people then when they get into "proper" games they flake because it wasn't like their newbie experience.
With that attitude, it is no wonder that many newbies drop out.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:33 am

Post by Wisdom »

He's right though. If everything is too nice and comfortable in newbie games people are going to be dissapointed when they step out of them.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:41 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

In post 107, Wisdom wrote:He's right though. If everything is too nice and comfortable in newbie games people are going to be dissapointed when they step out of them.
Or this idea should be extended to
all
games. I have always played the game like this for years. I do not see anything wrong with it. Indeed, it encourages more strategic play and makes the game more interesting for both teams.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:47 am

Post by AlwaysInnocent »

And even if you do not extend the idea to all games (and again, I do not see anything wrong with the idea), the problem seems to be that newbies drop out in newbie games (checking the site statistics). Probably because they do not get acquainted with the site very well. If people are more invested in the site, then I think it is more likely that they will continue playing "less comfortable" games (whatever that means) than drop out of them.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:15 am

Post by Toomai »

Alright, just over a month in, I think it's time for an update on the experiment so far.

There are currently 6 completed newbie games with daytalk, only 1 of which was a town win. While not a good sign, it's obviously not large enough a sample size to draw any conclusions yet.

The replace rates are more interesting though. In the previous 30 games without daytalk, 37.5% of all scum newbie slots (total of 32) saw at least one replacement. In the six daytalk games so far, involving 6 scum newbie slots, there has been 0 replacements. 6 is a pretty tiny sample, but a flat zero is very strong.

However. The "old" rate for town newbies was 35.8% (49/37), and the "new" rate for town newbies is 32.0% (8/25) - that is, basically unchanged. If adding daytalk means we keep scum newbies but town newbies act the same, that may result in a new meta where replacing out is a town tell.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:04 am

Post by SilverWolf »

The town win you are talking about is this game I was IC in: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=63737

I think there might be something to be said for the fact that both scum were newbies. I think it's the first newbie I've played in where all SE's (3 of them this time) and the IC were all town. The main reason the second one died so quickly was because he fakeclaimed as the last scum alive and didn't realize docs couldn't protect themselves. Again, just a simple newbie error. If one of the SE's or myself would of been in the scumPT with him, this never would of happened.

So both scum being newbies is definitely a thing to consider in town wins.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:22 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Hay, newbies can actually be good at being scum.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:53 am

Post by SilverWolf »

They can, especially if they have experience elsewhere but even if they don't, they can because there's no meta on them. What I mean is, the newbie error that was made by someone who has never played here and didn't know for example, that docs can't protect themselves or that he shouldn't fakeclaim as the last scum alive. That kind of thing that never would of happened if myself or any of the SE's would of been with him in the PT.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:15 am

Post by Ether »

On average newbies are presumably going to be worse scum than ICs or the stronger SEs. It's more complicated than that, because the whole SE system is pretty much a potluck, and I believe Toomai doesn't keep track of who's in the slot. (So, if a really strong established player replaces a newbie, then they still count as a newbie. Of course, if no newbies get replaced, that stops being an issue.)

There are going to be outliers; that's why 6 games and 6 newbies isn't really conclusive.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:22 am

Post by Toomai »

Okay so now we're ten completed games into the experiment. I'll update the stats topic itself shortly, but this seems important to note here first.

This is the first time in history (of newbie Matrix6 games) that scum has won 9 of the past 10 games (ordered by game number), and "scum wins in past 25 games by game number" is also the highest it has ever been (at a town winrate below 30%).

In addition, here are some interesting stats about replacements:
  • The rate of replacing players for newbie scum in these daytalk games is 1/10 (10%). In the previous 30 no-daytalk games, it's 16/32 (50%).
  • We already have more SE replacements in these 10 games (13/26) than in the previous 30 games (11/71); this is worse than the "all newbies" rate from the previous 30. No IC replacements yet though.
  • Town newbie replacement rate is effectively unchanged.

Or, if you like pictures: (direct link)
Image

Again, this isn't statistically significant yet, but the emerging patterns are quite strong. If the goal here was "stop newbscum from replacing", I think you have a winner. But I don't really think it's worth everything else that's happening.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Elbirn »

I think it's also worth noting that the one game that scum lost was two newbie scum.

It certainly appears that scum day talk is a huge advantage, but is there any way balance can be restored to the force?
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:50 am

Post by Bicephalous Bob »

In post 47, Bicephalous Bob wrote:A good compromise might be to limit daytalk to the first day. This gives scum the chance to coach each other on obvious playstyle flaws and to build a sense of team spirit, while also being introduced to rolling solo. The removal of daytalk on day 2 also works as a counterbalance.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:55 am

Post by Plotinus »

In post 117, Bicephalous Bob wrote:
In post 47, Bicephalous Bob wrote:A good compromise might be to limit daytalk to the first day. This gives scum the chance to coach each other on obvious playstyle flaws and to build a sense of team spirit, while also being introduced to rolling solo. The removal of daytalk on day 2 also works as a counterbalance.
I like this idea. Also means they won't be able to co-ordinate a quickhammer in private in LYLO but will have to do that dance in the thread where they're more likely to be caught.

I was scum in two of these games; in the one I ICed, I had an SE partner and I think that daytalk in MYLO played a good part in our win; in the other I replaced into an SE slot and immediately bussed my SE partner (who had replaced into a newbie slot). Daytalk wasn't used all that much before I got there, and I think town might have won if I had not replaced into that one, because my predecessor was a bit of a questionmark and everyone else looked pretty town.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:57 am

Post by Plotinus »

what if it was a rule that day 1 daytalk is only if there's at least one newbie scum; daytalk is lost on day 2 or if the newbie is replaced by an SE. SE/SE scum or SE/IC scum wouldn't have daytalk at all.

Then it wouldn't be known if daytalk existed unless a newbie flips scum, and they would still only have it for the first day phase.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:26 am

Post by SilverWolf »

I think the problem with only doing it for newbie scum is that it might become apparent at some point in the game, who has daytalk and who doesn't. Not sure how exactly but it would suck to have a game broken by someone saying they think a new player has daytalk.

I think if it happens for only a day, everyone should have it, regardless of if they are new or not. I do like the idea of having if for just the first day and then night talk only OR having a full 24 hour pregame that is specifically for the scumteam to talk and prepare and then have night talk only for the rest of the game but do it consistently in all newbies. That wouldn't be as potent as daytalk but it would maybe make a new scum player feel more comfortable.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:42 am

Post by Ether »

Newbie scum would always have to avoid looking like they have daytalk, whether other players would get it or not. Having daytalk is a scumtell no matter who has it.

But with that said, I do think it should be everyone or no one. SEs can be hopeless scum who've never used daytalk before, too.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:43 am

Post by Plotinus »

Maybe even just daytalk for the first 72 hours of the game, not counting pregame chat which they would also have? Because if it's someone's first time being scum there's only so much you can do in pregame to teach them and it is better to see what they can do on their own and then build from that rather than trying to sculpt them into somebody they're not.

I dunno, I think 3 days of "you're doing great, just keep doing just like that, we can do this, ask them why they think that, that's good" might have the desired effect (reducing newbie scum replaceouts) without making this 90% scum win.

I think there's always going to the risk of the newbie looking coached, but the experienced player can try to coach the newbie into looking like a newbie town instead of like a coached newbie or the experienced player can just do more encouragement type things instead of "how to play" stuff. If a newbie looks really good for 3 days and then suddenly looks less good that could be A Sign but again I'd blame that on the more experienced player for not coaching more subtly.
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:20 pm

Post by chamber »

Just change the balance in the setup. The daytalk has clearly helped scum newbie retention which is a key goal of newbie games.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:22 pm

Post by Cheery Dog »

In post 120, SilverWolf wrote:OR having a full 24 hour pregame that is specifically for the scumteam to talk and prepare and then have night talk only for the rest of the game but do it consistently in all newbies. That wouldn't be as potent as daytalk but it would maybe make a new scum player feel more comfortable.

The pregame talk already happened in most newbies before we started having daytalk in them.
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