Mini 1742: game over

[Titus]

Talah flips scum we autolynch Taly tomorrow.

Why?

[Wickan]

Trying to insist that I should be restricted to one person at this point is anti-town bordering on scum. The clear reasons not to do that have been explained again and again.

I'm not going to hammer talah. I encourage ASP not to as well.

I'm happy continuing to vote RC. I encourage others to join me. If you doubt, read him over the last few pages and ask yourself: is this actually a frustrated townie, or scum trying to give off that vibe.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Let's do ASP instead. Also need to actually read that Taly post brb

[Titus]

Down for asp.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Seriously though, we should lock the hider down to one target so the information is useful.

If he gets killed with the person being targeted, well, we lost two potential mislynches.

I see what you're saying, but him potentially confirming multiple people is worth the risk. To me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Do we have enough votes for ASP?

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

Why are Taly/Talah scum together? These 3 reasons.

1) That "pm before game" comment. Last time someone made it aka Slavic Mafia 1? Scumbuddies.
2) Taly immediately voted Talah for the unvote then made an extremely coachy comment while hinting that he should unvote. Talah then unvoted.
3) Taly went from scumreading Talah to townreading as soon as serious momentum occurred there was an 180 and he backtracked.
4) Crazy waffling from both about their reads on the other. Here's an example.

>Now back to talah - Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

[Titus]

Yes. No one is objecting to an ASP lynch.

[Titus]

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

Why are Taly/Talah scum together? These 3 reasons.

1) That "pm before game" comment. Last time someone made it aka Slavic Mafia 1? Scumbuddies.
2) Taly immediately voted Talah for the unvote then made an extremely coachy comment while hinting that he should unvote. Talah then unvoted.
3) Taly went from scumreading Talah to townreading as soon as serious momentum occurred there was an 180 and he backtracked.
4) Crazy waffling from both about their reads on the other. Here's an example.

>Now back to talah - Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

Can you grab both posts you think are similar to each other? The coaching posts?

Now that RC's here and playing, I like her and want her in my no lynch pool for today. I would be open to Taly trying to frame RC as her buddy knowing I would jump on her word choice.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Talah is the better lynch imo.

[Titus]

If RC supports her case, I will vote Talah here. Just need to check the evidence out.

[Albert B. Rampage]

If?

[Titus]

Yes. Her case is valid. I need to see if it is sound.

[Albert B. Rampage]

What do you mean if RC supports her case?

[Titus]

What do you mean if RC supports her case?

If she provides the quotes from the places she mentioned and they support the conclusion she draws.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You know RC is listed as male right?

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: talah

This is putting talah to L-1 including her own vote. I doubt she'll keep it on at this point, but I'd like any sort of intent to hammer at this point before a lynch occurs if another vote is put on if talah unvotes.

Subtly encouraging her to unvote.

Oh, FA. I'm an ENFP, too.

I don't have enough time to reply to every single thing in the morning, so if something is desired to be addressed then question me after I create this post and will have a weekend after school to engage.

Also, talah's unvote right before her large posts come in responding to arguments appears as if she had realized she had done something wrong. It doesn't make sense, since she didn't explain it then.

[...snip...]
Pre-edit:
Seriously - never self-

vote

hammer. I TRULY understand how frustrating it can be. I've done it before (well not hammered but voted).
Even if you have to lurk because you're frustrated it helps to shape the game and gives town info.
I really enjoyed your accesisibility as I mentioned and you were very reasonable - I just didnt' understand your change off Taly dismissing your own arguments and wanted to know why that changed onto ChriVi, and I think we could have discussed that better - as much my fault as anything.

So this was the same quote (which you quoted) where I told Netherspite to never self-vote (we didn't get along well in that game at all).
Thing is the guy self-hammered. Also he was tilting and didn't take time to blow off some steam elsewhere or just call himself a v/la or lurk or something.

This is a completely different scenario.

RC's taken a couple of passes at me and when I've pushed back on him he's become increasingly aggro with scumreading me. Now I'm sorry but I don't think a the best reaction from town's to being questioned or poked (especially in response to your own push) is to scumread, vote and leave it at that.

So I decided I'd give him some help with wagonning me. Maybe he'd push a case, maybe I'd become a juicy target. Who knows. But I've done this before as town in at least a couple of games. So I guess my blanket statement about not self-voting is - well circumstantial (as it related to Netherspite in that game) and a bit pie-in-the-sky. Sometimes I just find it quite difficult to keep everything super-optimal and serious especially when games drag out on Day 1 like this. So I take a sidetrack or two.

Besides which:

I voted you because wagons are good and I didn't care to push either of Taly or Titus.

Wagons

are

good. From my sometimes atypical perspective - even on myself.

[...snip...]
But I'm really intrigued that either of you see my self-vote given my will-vote won't vote as a "fuck you have at it lol". So anyway if you want to grab that wagon go for it.
[...snip...]

Aside from that^^ and meta contradictions, the fact that talah then

says that it's 'intriguing' that we recognized

and then prods us to a wagon doesn't sit well with me.

I've snipped out the couple of dross lines you're not referring to here.
I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at here, especially the part I've bolded above.
It doesn't seem to line up as a problem with what I actually said, or you're missing some part of the point you meant to type.

Also the self-vote was the

second vote on the wagon

. I literally created the wagon.

You mean... A wagon on yourself? Apparently that's good? Couldn't you have just asked questions?

Don't try to explain the context; that still doesn't explain you, or remove my thinking about your self-vote and your general posting. Why would you argue that your vote on yourself was helpful?

[Do you think that doesn't line up with me having some purpose for it?
Also this is like deja-vu from the initial Frozen wagon except I'm doing it to myself. In case you've forgotten.

Bad wording palooza. So I'm forgetting something?

Please tell me how this scenario aligns with your early push on FA.

[Difference here is I *know* I'm town and so do scum, so it's a legitimate temptation with 2 votes outside of RVS imo.
Especially where other players try to characterise this kind of self-vote as scummy in its own right.

I mean... You were town the last game... I don't understand what you're getting at here.

And if her self-vote wasn't meant for anything much at all compared to the wagon she jumped off of for no reason; then why didn't she bring it back the post after or explain it? It looks like an agenda was there.

You don't lay down a reaction test and then say next post "NAHH GUISE JSUT CHECKING LOL UNVOTE". Do you understand why not?
So what's your actual problem with my self-vote? We have a wagon on me now which probably has 2 scum on it.

How do you know there are 2 scum on the wagon? Or scum at all?

And if your self-vote/unvote was a reaction test, then why didn't you say anything else about it, especially before you removed the vote?

This feels like you're either withholding information on what you learned from the 'reaction self-vote', or you're trying to find a way to make your vote seem as if it held some ground in terms of wagons.

Trusting some people on the wagon more, and the only major posting talah has done in this game was in the first few pages, she hasn't been pushed much at all and I feel like she's also gone under the radar. The intervals she posts about doesn't make since with the content at hand.

(Basically her posting 2-3 days apart between her engagements - ever since December 4th, which was not even a week until after the game began. Which would make sense from scum not wanting to do much when the chat was cut off 3 days in.)

This is a really bad argument and the reason is a PM I sent you back before joining the queue for this game regarding what I intended to do to allow myself to play more games.
Also:

Spoiler:

On lurking and you trying to say me not posting for 13 hours (or whatever, I might not post for 2 days or longer and prod-dodge, it's not the point) - your ISO now consists of 10 posts, most of them useless except as far as making excuses and defending yourself. Fully half of them have arrived in the last 24 hours and have been in response to me attacking you. Don't you think that's a good thing that I've motivated you enough to - actually post?

Dodgin'.

Sorry, been pretty crook the last couple of days.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree that I've found a way to barely exist - I actually just came out of a couple of games directly prior to this and usually that'd be burnout for me. So I'm going to be shamelessly lurking from time to time (and especially at times when I'm either busy IRL, demotivated, or simply as with this game - kind of frustrated that we're talking around in circles and stubborning up rather than trying to compromise on lynches.

So I'm just going to leave that part of what you're seeing as "burden of activity" given I believe I have more posts than you - and both of ABR and RC have far more posts that both of us - and for the life of me I can't remember anything significant either have really done (well I guess ABR's done the rounds with voting but meh).

If you're feeling like I'm not providing enough content, how about you ask me some direct questions which aren't in walls? I dont' believe I've ignored anything you've said, correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not about amount of posts, or entirely the content itself; but the consistency as well. Which doesn't work well with how you've posted in several day intervals, only on specific discussions.

But hey, I'm glad throwing you up on the inquisition chair:

1)

Why are you pushing FA again, over all people?

2)

Who is bussing SP? And why is he town for zero resistance?

3)

Why is Titus town? You guys nonstop say that the other one is obv-town somehow, and literally nobody else seems to see it that way.

4)

Can you walk me through - in more compacted and concise words - how RC and ABR are 'linked' together, and they're scum?

Results of the consensus survey:

Won't lynch:

Johnny

[8] {Titus, talah, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, ABR, ASP}

Titus

[5] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR}

ABR

[3] {Titus, Wickan, ASP}

Taly

[3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}

talah

[2] {Titus, ICE}

RC

[2] {Frozen, ABR}

ICE

[1] {RC}

Frozen

[1] {RC}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

ASP

[4] {talah, Johnny, Taly, ICE}

talah

[3] {Frozen, RC, ABR}

Ice

[2] {Titus, ASP}

RC

[1] {Wickan}

Notes:

Spoiler:

I think this is accurate. I went back to Wickan's update in 1043 and added in RC and ABR's indications and then continued from there. I tried to keep the order of stating preferences sorted by time in the list. (So first player to state an opinion appears first in each group).

I'm adding RC's 'Won't lynch' based on his 1021/1024 (ie he indicated he thought certain folks were town so presumably won't vote them at that stage)

Obviously some things might have changed now but this has been the problem; constant shifting and lack of consensus. So I really wanted a snapshot of a single state of the game we could consider and discuss (although I might have undermined that mid-survey by inviting a wagon on myself - oops. Nevertheless...)

Playerlist for reference:

(ordered by statement of preferences above)

Spoiler:

Titus
talah
JohnnyFarrar
RadiantCowbells
Taly
Frozen Angel
Wickan
Albert B. Rampage
ICEninja
A Simple Plan

Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP

---

The below results are the more important result as far as Town consensus is concerned.

Implicit Will lynch list:

This is the inverse of the "Won't lynch" list

ASP

[9] {Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE}

Frozen

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ICE

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

RC

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

talah

[7] {Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

Taly

[6] {Titus, RC, Frozen, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ABR

[6] {talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, ICE}

Titus

[4] {RC, Frozen, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[2] {RC, ICE}

Johnny

[1] {ABR}
---

This is terrible.

First you give 2 options - not the other half the rest of us added - on our preferred lynch, creating a dichotomy.

Then you say that there is 'too much diversity' inside the formation of this popcorn read and vote/lynch.

Now whenever you're being pushed with more power - you go back to this idea and then make and INVERSE lynch list; incriminating HALF THE PLAYERLIST to be a possible lynch.

You 'narrowing down the field' just turned into you making anyone a possible lynch, all within the change of votes being placed on you.

The fact that you just push your own reads instead of providing questions to others to get their input - seems as if you're trying to cause some sort of turmoil in decision.

So, refreshing my reads and compromise suggestions for Town based on this info (and to an extent my wagon info):

ASP I'm going to suggest actually might be town based on the fact there is zero resistance to his lynch - either that or he's simply being bussed at this point because his lynch seemed inevitable. I can vote here but have changed my mind on preference.

Frozen's vote on my wagon was the most opportunistic given the lack of solid argument (I'll get to RC and ABR in a second) and there are several other aspects to her play which haven't panned out as continuing town, like it seemed they might early-ish game after my initial serious scumread and push. I'm heading back to scum there and a fantastic compromise. I don't know why she has so much implicit support but isn't pushed - indicating to me that scum aren't pushing an obvious lynch target (because she's scum).

Taly's push was pretty bad too and I'm going to be considering that but still don't want to lynch him today.

ICE I mistrust because of his *lack* of suspicion on me, actually, but hey town can be right about town. Want to put him in the on-hold bucket for now, but he'd be a like 3rd or 4th tier compromise who I'd have to re-read I think.

RC and ABR - I can't help but group their play in my head.
~ On RC, I still don't like the tunnel (which has switched form Titus to me) - there's nothing to back it up. Votes/tunnels, person being voted asks questions, RC lurks until an opportune time to randomly post a quote and call it scummy again. Rinse repeat. I'd vote here.
~ On ABR - I'd like to think his voting-round-the-world strats have a purpose. Not really perturbed by his "game too easy" comments when I'm at L-1 with intent to hammer. I want to see his play after a flip if I'm around.


So.

VOTE: Frozen

I covered a lot of this during my questioning of you.

You say my push is bad - but then you say you won't lynch me - but then your 'will lynch list' (where you put votes where people didn't place themselves) - throws 6 votes onto myself, which secures a lynch on me.

Yeah. Your 'popcorn vote analysis' doesn't add up with the reads, furthermore - you haven't even pushed on someone else yet if you do believe you could go after the 'scum on your wagon.'

The FA vote looks extremely far-sided. FA only placed a vote on you; but while you say you wouldn't want to lynch me for supposedly a "bad push" - you throw an associative over RC and ABR and then incriminate FA as opportunistic.

This doesn't look like the body of work from a towny.

>>>>

Titus, you can say all you want about how talah is obvtown- but that's not changing my mind. Despite talah wanting to 'lay low' on the posting, she seems very much like scum in my eyes.

I don't need to talk meta anymore; I have enough reason to vote to lynch talah right now in her past few posts alone.

I spent roughly 2 hours of last night creating 3 posts, first of me addressing talah's 1118, the second me dumping the first post halfway into talah's wall and seeing her as town; wanting to unvote, the third of me seeing her VT claim; and her 1184 (Which doesn't look like scum at all, tbh.) and wanting to outline the rest of my thoughts on the previous two posts so people could understand why/if I unvoted talah.

If anyone wants to call bullshit, then I'll happily put the 3 unfinished posts in a spoiler. Merry Christmas.

Can we not hammer or lynch talah?

I mean, I'm not sold on talah being definitively town. And I know half of you are either too apathetic, stagnant, or 'confident' to move your vote...

I don't like this wagon, and the people I did like on the wagon for a few seconds really haven't done much at all - and/or have lost the credit they had.

But Ice's vote makes me want to throw up on myself. (And the post as a whole, there - and my townread on him no longer exists.)

>>>>

If we lynch talah, I want Wickan to hide behind him

despite her flip.

I really don't like half of FA's case. (Her ISO is also mehhhhh)

>

I don't see talah using AtE that much, if at all - plus I don't agree with the concept of AtE itself.

>

I don't see talah's vote as OMGUS, exactly - even if I don't understand the re-vote.

>

So.... Whenever I was pushed to L-3 by Wickan, Titus, and ABR - and calling THEM out as a possible scumteam (before Wickan's claim) - I'm not somehow scum, but talah is?

I can't even read ABRs vote, I think he's possibly town and just breeds apathy like no other at this point.

>I sound like House. ._.

Some of RC's posts I find alarming these past few pages, but he's really low priority compared to other people, and in part to talah herself. Nothing strikes me as scum from him and I haven't had a clear read on him this entire game.

>Now back to talah

- Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

Note that in the second he pushes her fairly hard but with alot of "seems like" and also puts other people (ice/FA) at the top of the lynch list.
He also gives her fairly easy questions to answer that, when answered, could justify a switch off and I'm not sure if they're very alignment indicative because a few of them (particularly the FA one) are super obvious from an ISO.
I don't buy it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're saying if RC supports RC's case, I read that as if RC supports Talah's case.

[Titus]

I am most concerned with the pm before game comments.

[RadiantCowbells]

I covered a lot of this during my questioning of you.

You say my push is bad - but then you say you won't lynch me - but then your 'will lynch list' (where you put votes where people didn't place themselves) - throws 6 votes onto myself, which secures a lynch on me.

Yeah. Your 'popcorn vote analysis' doesn't add up with the reads, furthermore - you haven't even pushed on someone else yet if you do believe you could go after the 'scum on your wagon.'

The FA vote looks extremely far-sided. FA only placed a vote on you; but while you say you wouldn't want to lynch me for supposedly a "bad push" - you throw an associative over RC and ABR and then incriminate FA as opportunistic.

This doesn't look like the body of work from a towny.

>>>>

Titus, you can say all you want about how talah is obvtown- but that's not changing my mind. Despite talah wanting to 'lay low' on the posting, she seems very much like scum in my eyes.

I don't need to talk meta anymore; I have enough reason to vote to lynch talah right now in her past few posts alone.

Also, this specifically looks line intended misdirection.

[Titus]

You're saying if RC supports RC's case, I read that as if RC supports Talah's case.

My bad. I think RC female because of the avatar. I make this mistake a lot.

[Taly]

@Taly : I think there are some language barriers here

about emotional part I have no more comment - yes it can be angry town but that self vote wasn't an angry town move. specially there.

Talah (5): RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel, Albert B. Rampage, Taly, ICEninja

well he called RC ,ABR , you , me and ICE cases bad and scummy and he called a scum team : RC-Ice and me all three are his voters.

so yeah he is trying to show the wagon bad.

and telling us that we're all scum because we're voting him

>>>>>>>

I said I was telling a possible scum team before. I don't believe it anymore.

and i misunderstood your last post last part that's because I asked it.

Alright, then? Talah townreads me from what I'm seeing, and I don't know where her head is at with ABR.

Talah flips scum we autolynch Taly tomorrow.

Nice expansion on your dichotomy of us.

Trying to insist that I should be restricted to one person at this point is anti-town bordering on scum. The clear reasons not to do that have been explained again and again.

I'm not going to hammer talah. I encourage ASP not to as well.

I'm happy continuing to vote RC. I encourage others to join me. If you doubt, read him over the last few pages and ask yourself: is this actually a frustrated townie, or scum trying to give off that vibe.

I keep looking back and I'm not sure. What exactly about RCs posts strike as scum to you?

Let's do ASP instead. Also need to actually read that Taly post brb

Looking forward to this.

But John, why is SP scum exactly?

Do we have enough votes for ASP?

I'm still not entirely sure on SP being the best lynch here... There's no major case that involves just him? Other than talah's push on him.

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

Why are Taly/Talah scum together? These 3 reasons.

1) That "pm before game" comment. Last time someone made it aka Slavic Mafia 1? Scumbuddies.
2) Taly immediately voted Talah for the unvote then made an extremely coachy comment while hinting that he should unvote. Talah then unvoted.
3) Taly went from scumreading Talah to townreading as soon as serious momentum occurred there was an 180 and he backtracked.
4) Crazy waffling from both about their reads on the other. Here's an example.

>Now back to talah - Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

1)

The PM was BEFORE GAME - as in, several days. It makes zero sense that you push this as scumbuddies even due to prior experience.

2)

Thanks for the misrep, RC. I voted talah for her self-vote and then pushed her further for that unvote - along with her general posting consistencies. And what coaching are you talking about?

3)

Want me to show you the 3 posts I wrote up so you'll see what led me to seeing talah as town? Plus, why are you accusing me of backtracking? My vote's still on talah and I still want a lynch; I'm only stating my thoughts on the wagon and how things have progressed since my previous post.

4)

Wow. You just link my posts, and you make assumptions on my reads. Btw, talah has said that she thought I was town - but you know. Just continue with that confirmation bias.

P-edit

RC; how is that coaching? Were you expecting talah to keep her vote on herself?

[Titus]

I am most concerned with the pm before game comments.

RC, focus please

[Frozen Angel]

Alright, then? Talah townreads me from what I'm seeing, and I don't know where her head is at with ABR.

are these like town reading ? or slight scum readings ?

Taly's push was pretty bad too and I'm going to be considering that but still don't want to lynch him today.

~ On ABR - I'd like to think his voting-round-the-world strats have a purpose. Not really perturbed by his "game too easy" comments when I'm at L-1 with intent to hammer. I want to see his play after a flip if I'm around.

[Taly]

FA - read the last bit of talah's 1118

You made a bad push. I think youre town.

What she stated on ABR wasn't verified exactly, other than her saying the votes on in overall are bad.