Micro 553: ETL's Double Day Unlimited (Game Over)

[Antihero]

because you knew it would flip town and you didn't want to be around...?

i mean... not that complicated or out there.

[Antihero]

PLUS

who would want tth dead?

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that the momentum is shifting and my reads are no longer popular.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

I was townreading your slot mostly because I thought there was no way scum could be as all over the place and bad as Lhix was, but stuff like this makes me think I went wrong somewhere and you're just scum.

oh yeah...

IT'S YOU

[Rob14]

because you knew it would flip town and you didn't want to be around...?

i mean... not that complicated or out there.

1) I don't shy away from being on town wagons as scum. Read my meta for confirmation.

2) And then I reversed course and decided to quickhammer, which makes me the center of attention? That's hardly compatible with a narrative of wanting to stay in the background and not be on a town wagon if I were scum.

[Rob14]

PLUS

who would want tth dead?

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that the momentum is shifting and my reads are no longer popular.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

I was townreading your slot mostly because I thought there was no way scum could be as all over the place and bad as Lhix was, but stuff like this makes me think I went wrong somewhere and you're just scum.

oh yeah...

IT'S YOU

That's not even a scumread. It's null at most.

The funny thing is, Zito quoted that post earlier too. He didn't bother to quote the following, though, which is just as indicative of TTH starting to consider Zito.

TTH, what do you think about Antihero right now? What is your track record for reading him?

Admittedly not much, but I do have a pretty extensive history with him in a hydra and I'm pretty familiar with how he thinks as both alignments. I think it's overwhelmingly more likely he's town here because of the confidence you seem to dislike. As scum, he likes to spin his wheels a lot more on inconsequential things and stay out of the way as much as possible. As town he tries to make waves and make things go his way. For him to be scum here he would have to be breaking a lot of meta in a short time frame and I don't think it's likely he's capable of it (no offense, Anti).

I

might

now be seeing why people don't like Zito. >:S

[Antihero]

"you're just scum"

sounds like a scumread to me

[Antihero]

1) I don't shy away from being on town wagons as scum. Read my meta for confirmation.

oh joy, self meta

2) And then I reversed course and decided to quickhammer, which makes me the center of attention? That's hardly compatible with a narrative of wanting to stay in the background and not be on a town wagon if I were scum.

well you said it yourself. it was either you or him at that point, right?

[Antihero]

holy shit rc and rob are at l-1. CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A HAMMER NOW ON ONE OF THOSE

VOTE: RC

I'm not going down until I convince you all that Zito is fucking scum.

you didn't want the attention

but when push came to shove and SOMEONE had to take the fall, you were all too happy to hop back onto rc.

how's that for a narrative? am i just out in left field?

[Papa Zito]

No, that's precisely what happened, no matter how he tries to spin it.

Screw it.

VOTE: Rob13

[Rob14]

1) I don't shy away from being on town wagons as scum. Read my meta for confirmation.

oh joy, self meta

2) And then I reversed course and decided to quickhammer, which makes me the center of attention? That's hardly compatible with a narrative of wanting to stay in the background and not be on a town wagon if I were scum.

well you said it yourself. it was either you or him at that point, right?

Or Zito, which I missed. As town, what's optimal - get lynched or lynch a scum read? The fact you're harping on that borders on absurdity. Scum has a strong self-preservation motive, but town has a self-preservation motive as well. There was no gain to my lynch, because players in the game were clearly indicating they didn't give a flying fuck about my reads or anything. Town wasn't going to look at anything again after my death, they would have just lynched RC anyway, probably. And then probably Con, who's almost certainly town.

And self-meta is entirely valid in pointing out null tells. This isn't a matter of interpretation or manipulation. If you claim "X --> scum" and I point out an instance of "X and town", then your implication has been proven false. That's basic rules of logic. What I'm NOT saying is "X --> town". That

would

be self-meta, would be open to manipulation, and should be ignored if anyone does it.

Basically, pointing out your own meta to indicate that something is a null tell for you is absolutely valid, and I'm really tired of people not understanding that. And if you'd like to see me argue this like a half dozen other times as both alignments, check my meta. See what I did there?

[Rob14]

Both Zito and Anti, on the remote chance either of you are town, look at the RC wagon.

How would I have been the one who got attention off of that if it had resulted in a mislynch? I fairly quietly placed a vote beginning of day and left it there until I unvoted. If I had kept pushing Zito and left my vote on, no attention would have come my way at all. I took a course of action that actively brought attention onto me because I had a better scum read. It was the difference between lean scum and strong scum; RC was lean scum, Zito was strong scum.

The people who would have been characterized as pushing the RC wagon were Anti and

possibly

Wicked. Anti was the one actively pushing for it. If I had left my vote there, the lynch would have eventually gone through uneventfully and I could have floated by. What's my motivation for trying to change the wagon as scum?

To everyone else (Con/Wicked):

Note how Anti's logic from yesterday and today lined up lynches. Anti yesterday seemed to push the idea that I was scum with RC because of the unvote. I can kind of see how that argument works; I unvoted RC when wagon was gaining momentum to save my partner. But when RC flipped town, he didn't drop his read at all or re-evaluate. He just wordlessly put a vote back on me. Now I'm apparently scum because I was exiting the vote to avoid being on a wagon that lynched town, even though, as I detail above, I wouldn't have been the one in the spotlight for that lynch.

A townie would have reevaluated the read when the rationale behind it broke down. They wouldn't have searched for a new rationale to fit the existing read. Fitting a rationale to a read rather than a read to your rationales is one of the strongest indicators of scum. It indicates you're hunting lynches, not scum.

I've already detailed yesterday how Zito is obv-scum. Anti is looking more and more like his partner. More, because I'm not dead yet, I have to assume that Anti and Zito are the scum. Otherwise, someone would have hammered me by now. Please do not recklessly throw this game. At least take a look at the possibility of a {Zito, Anti} team before placing a vote and engage with that possibility. I can't guarantee I'll be hugely helpful in that respect, since this game has frustrated the hell out of me, but I'll try if you have any questions.

[Antihero]

If you claim "X --> scum" and I point out an instance of "X and town", then your implication has been proven false.

what the fuck are you even talking about now?

you said you don't shy away from town wagons as scum

1) I don't shy away from being on town wagons as scum. Read my meta for confirmation.

that is... open to manipulation and doesn't "disprove" shit. you even acknowledging your own meta voids any validity it might have as an alignment tell.

i claimed "x --> scum"
you said "no, y ---> scum"

x and y are simply different strategies that will change with every game. it's not an immutable part of ... anything. soooooooooooo...

horseshit

hows that logic?

[Rob14]

VOTE: Anti

If Anti isn't scum, town has already lost because Con or Wicked will hammer me, so might as well place my vote there as well.

[Rob14]

Anti, you're saying I would hop off the wagon as scum and not as town. I'm pointing out that I regularly throw my vote around and hop on and off wagons in all states as town, and I regularly tunnel as scum. Yes, I'm aware of my tunneling meta as scum, and I'm not saying "no tunnel --> not scum", but I am saying that your logic of "hopping off wagon --> scum" is seriously flawed because I hop off wagons in all game states as town all the time. My philosophy, which you'll here me state repeatedly in other games because people regularly question me on this, is that my vote is my only weapon so I should use it.

[Antihero]

Note how Anti's logic from yesterday and today lined up lynches. Anti yesterday seemed to push the idea that I was scum with RC because of the unvote. I can kind of see how that argument works; I unvoted RC when wagon was gaining momentum to save my partner. But when RC flipped town, he didn't drop his read at all or re-evaluate. He just wordlessly put a vote back on me. Now I'm apparently scum because I was exiting the vote to avoid being on a wagon that lynched town, even though, as I detail above, I wouldn't have been the one in the spotlight for that lynch.

A townie would have reevaluated the read when the rationale behind it broke down. They wouldn't have searched for a new rationale to fit the existing read. Fitting a rationale to a read rather than a read to your rationales is one of the strongest indicators of scum. It indicates you're hunting lynches, not scum.

I've already detailed yesterday how Zito is obv-scum. Anti is looking more and more like his partner. More, because I'm not dead yet, I have to assume that Anti and Zito are the scum. Otherwise, someone would have hammered me by now. Please do not recklessly throw this game. At least take a look at the possibility of a {Zito, Anti} team before placing a vote and engage with that possibility. I can't guarantee I'll be hugely helpful in that respect, since this game has frustrated the hell out of me, but I'll try if you have any questions.

OH FUCK THAT

you were the one premeditating this whole fucking time. you saw the writing on the wall and you sandbagged into a loser wagon that already lost steam. all with the added convenience that you COULD rejoin the wagon if necessary (and, oh look, it did end up being necessary). so you didn't revoke the read. you left your options open. it was all political positioning. calculated.

[Rob14]

The possible manipulation of a meta is to match up your scum game to your town meta. But if I did that manipulation with the "X" you're claiming, that means that X is a null tell by definition, since I've matched it to what I would normally do as town. Do you see what I mean here? I feel like I'm not communicating well, but this is a basic point of my opinion of theory with respect to meta that I think is very important to understand in order to understand my argument.

[Antihero]

Anti, you're saying I would hop off the wagon as scum and not as town. I'm pointing out that I regularly throw my vote around and hop on and off wagons in all states as town, and I regularly tunnel as scum. Yes, I'm aware of my tunneling meta as scum, and I'm not saying "no tunnel --> not scum", but I am saying that your logic of "hopping off wagon --> scum" is seriously flawed because I hop off wagons in all game states as town all the time. My philosophy, which you'll here me state repeatedly in other games because people regularly question me on this, is that my vote is my only weapon so I should use it.

yeah whatever.

you can try to baffle everyone else with bullshit, but don't sell it to me.

[Antihero]

The possible manipulation of a meta is to match up your scum game to your town meta. But if I did that manipulation with the "X" you're claiming, that means that X is a null tell by definition, since I've matched it to what I would normally do as town. Do you see what I mean here? I feel like I'm not communicating well, but this is a basic point of my opinion of theory with respect to meta that I think is very important to understand in order to understand my argument.

you CAN'T argue it with meta. because meta doesn't sit at the core of the argument. it doesn't have anything to DO with the argument to begin with.

YOU BROUGHT META IN. NOT ME.

[Rob14]

Example:

Player makes spam posts as town on a regular basis.
Player joins a game and make spam posts.
Others claim Player is scum because he's derailing the game with spam posts.
But Player makes spam posts as town on a regular basis. Even if he is attempting to derail with spam posts, this is indistinguishable from his town meta, and therefore cannot be used as a scum tell.

That's my point. Hopefully that's at least somewhat clear, either to you, or at least others.

[Rob14]

Yes, I did bring meta in! Self-meta to prove a scum-tell is regularly used in your town meta can be brought in at any point.

I brought meta in to show that your argument that I'm scummy because of X isn't true because I've been town and done X several times.

You're either not understanding or being deliberately obtuse. We can discuss the theory post-game when you don't think I'm making this argument due to some agenda. I make this argument repeatedly as both alignments, though, because it follows rules of basic logic.

[Rob14]

Basically, my point is that you can use self-meta to argue that a certain thing is a

null tell

, but using it to argue a certain thing is a

town tell

is open to manipulation. If you have actually done something in town games and are aware of it, you could add it to your scum games, but you would also do it as town. If you do that thing as both town and scum, it is by definition, a null tell.

[Antihero]

Example:

Player makes spam posts as town on a regular basis.
Player joins a game and make spam posts.
Others claim Player is scum because he's derailing the game with spam posts.
But Player makes spam posts as town on a regular basis. Even if he is attempting to derail with spam posts, this is indistinguishable from his town meta, and therefore cannot be used as a scum tell.

That's my point. Hopefully that's at least somewhat clear, either to you, or at least others.

yeah, and player has a LOT OF MOTIVE TO bring that in and present it as exculpatory evidence AS SCUM

oh, what, are we going to split hairs over "exculpatory" and "oh no, it's null"

give me a break

[Antihero]

there is no "tell"

i'm not using a "tell"

[Rob14]

I'm using the word "tell" to mean "evidence that someone is a particular alignment".

I've brought that in as evidence as both town and scum. Go check my meta.

OH WAIT

[Rob14]

Town has just as much motive to stay alive as scum in LyLo, and so the attempts to paint my self-meta as a survival interest fall very flat. Yes, I'm attempting to survive. If I don't, town loses.

[Rob14]

Town has just as much motive to stay alive as scum in LyLo, and so the attempts to paint my self-meta as a survival interest fall very flat. Yes, I'm attempting to survive. If I don't, town loses.